You know, she answers the questions correct almost every time in simple yet pretty sentences, so maybe that is just it she needs to see the answers to the other questions to bring it together.... Maybe that step is it... The place where she gets lost... I'm rereading again what each person has said and it is such a help. I have tools, and the freedom to let it go, too!!

Thank you thank you all who posted!!

I feel so much better after posting today and getting responses. Deep exhales here. Sound judgment and advice. Love bravewriter, love WWE, love keeping it simple though too. Side question, do you think a student that we have described could do well in an IEW class? (cc essentials). I have no experience with IEW and have stayed fat away until now. I'm sure it is hard to know for sure how it will fit a student...but from what you guys have read, would it also hold a chance to produce overwhelm, or his approach serve better, or just a shot in the dark. Forgive me if this is not clear as I'm on the go still...

So, maybe I can do what Susan says to do when it comes to skills if something is difficult, make it fat simpler, bit increase the volume of it...so we can maybe bring this skill back to the three things, or something similar, but instead of once or twice a week, do it in different subjects at least once a day...? I'm still open to any other thoughts or opinions, also.

Love your idea for yalking about the feelings more in the way that you described. We have talked, bit putting a name to it I think will be empowering and about how it can be your friend or ne against you. I'm on my phone, so forgive typos, etc. We did WWE 1, and honestly I remember us maybe even having to put it aside for a time too... So you think for now I can still use the WWE examples and samples, but stay at the steps of yell me three things that happened instead of what they ask...dont have it in front of me... ? Iguess since the current WWE books stages are not alligning with her development, it is making me scratch my head to see what I can do yo bridge the gap... Maybe she will take a leap btwn WWE 2 and WWE 3....? I think maybe I need yo familiarize myself with the stages of learning how to narrate and summarize...it was also a very big weakness for me too...thus the difficulty in breaking down how to help her. Thanks for your reply!

I shelved WWE2 months and months ago. My daughter (9 years old 3rd grade) would hit a wall every time when it came to summarizing/giving main points in story... even when helping her a little... she is a perfectionist and it produced HIGH volumes of tears and panic... I don't know how to help her past this... this morning i had an idea though to bring it back in, but this time, actually give her the answers, with us working far closer together than we have in the past.... part of the idea was to go through the whole level this way, even if that means we have to re-do the level... she has NO problem taking a whole paragraph with dictation though... and she can copy paragraphs.... but it is just the other exercises.... does anyone have any advice in HOW i can do my idea or REALLY even telling me another way i can approach it using other tools, or just our daily readings in other subjects? I also need hand-holding as you can tell.... :) I also am VERY limited on time right now, so i'm busting this out quickly and will also respond briefly as well. here's to trying it another way instead of avoiding this skill all together for a few years! ha! PS i currently have on hand killgallon, hake, caps fables, the arrows, other copywork resources, WWE text, as well as WWE level 3, and level 1, and other LA resources... just incase i can utilize these too. As of right now we have only been doing copywork and HAke grammar 4 lessons, with thoughts of adding in killgallon, until i thought of adding back in WWE2 differently... we have thoughts of her joining CC Essentials in the fall, her 4th grade year.

Thank you for this thread. I am considering putting my 4th grader in a themed IEW class with classical conversation essentials, and this helped clarify things for me.

If I do the self paced course.... picking one for both of my kids to share.... using Sonlight readers/read alouds and SL history books to supplement.... and doing CC memory work and CC timeline cards.....but using the VP lessons.... so i don't have to read everything.... does this sound crazy??? Can i skip the VP memory work?? and not use the VP cards?

thanks guys for your responses. sorry for my delayed response. holidays. I also appreciate the poster questions, too that was helpful for me. I am disappointed though with the answers... :( b/c i was secretly hoping i could ditch what we are using for history (even though it costs a good bit of money, sonlight), for now, pick up this history class (spending more money though), use the cards we have (to maybe justify the extra expense), and... take a load off my time.... if you also have any responses to this that would be great! ;)

I know this may sound odd. I'm eclectic here. I'm a Sonlighter. I'm also doing Classical Conversations at home with my kids. I've been considering putting a pause on the SL cores and finishing the rest of the CC cycles here at home with the kids taking a year and a half to do it. Then pick back up with the SL cores.... I just heard about the Veritas Press self paced history courses... eeek. ;) i'm wondering if this would serve us during our time of studying CC only.... we already have SOTW...obviously all of ths is just WAY over kill.... but i was curious if the new CC timeline cards are similar to the ones VP uses (i know CC used to use theirs). Also if VP is heavy on memorization, i do not want to add any confusion... my idea here is to simplify and confirm what they are already learning, not make it more complex than it needs to be.... one reason for the break from SL cores to finish our CC work, is time. i can't read two cores and do CC at home and do the three Rs and care for the house and cook. if anyone has anything to add as how these programs overlap, not working well together, or work well together, please share. thanks!

Thanks. I just found this too http://blog.bravewriter.com/2008/08/13/copywork-and-dictation-how-often/ I almost feel that I have had enough experience with copywork/dictation to do it on my own... and as the mood strikes... the only reason for doing copywork daily is b/c my daughter actually asks for it, and always wants to do more than i give her each day... interesting enough she does not like to pick out her own selections from a book. she want's a printed copy or a typed out copy on a flat sheet of paper...

If implementing Brave Writer Arrows, how many days does this take up a week? how long does it take per session? I know there is copywork each week from looking at it, but how do most use it? do you use parts of it, learning from the copywork, spread out over 2 or 3 days? If I am using it, i want to use it along with SL LA copywork, SL's Copywork application, and some of my panned copywork...

So... forgive me for needing an affirming, "yes, that is it" or "that is just fine." I have just stripped my once very classical and rigorous idea of LA down. it has taken months preceding these last few days. I am now only having my daughter do copywork daily. (she LOVES copywork) day one, we are using our SL LA 4/5 Copywork, and the copywork application. Day two, I have copywork that I had already pre-made for her on a printed sheet, so she will be doing a paragraph from that... and doing some form of copywork each day from there... bu these are some other thoughts or ideas: I was thinking of including a few Arrows...? and on those days dropping whatever other copywork we had on hand for that day...? and then on thankful thursdays write in a gratitude journal of some sort. Fridays have a freewrite... tuesdays ideally we will do some sort of poetry or poetry tea... on Thursdays and fridays... should i still have copywork for a 3rd grader...i don't think it would be too much....but is it necessary? would it be too light to not have it on the days she is doing a quick unedited free write or short bit on gratitude? we were doing journals...with hake...but i'm kind of dropping that too.... was there anything else in the brave writer routine...or any other writing/grammar/LA for a 3rd grader that i need to add? We are not doing spelling, she is such a great speller, and we are trying to simplify. she sees a word once and tends to almost always remember it. We are also doing SL 4/5 Readers, and SL Core C read-alouds, etc... she's so good at dictation when we were using hake, that i'm thinking it's OK to delay doing more of it...? one day she will copy a paragraph (3-4 sentences), and the next day i will just say it's time for dictation, and.... she doesn't even need me to read it to her or look at it... she gets everything correct. should i still continue with Hake's dictation only? doing one a week? again.... i've been so focused on doing LA only one way...it feels like i'm starting all over again. :) so my questions are on copywork every day? one dictation a week? arrows? anything else? ETA: we are also doing CC grammar memory work, for now... sometimes i skip a random week due to what it is that is recommended to memorize in the grammar area.

Yes, this...

She does also mention CM in several ways on her blog.

I think when you get into the more natural programs, whole to part, you will find that methodology is supposed to teach both..... is this what you are asking?

lol We have shaken everything up and are taking a whole new perspective. Taking it one day at a time. seriously... My husband and I have made the top few subjects, or activities to do every single day, no matter what. like a loose routine. Then we have "shelved" everything else. When I say shelved, i mean put in a "place" for me to pick out what will work to do that day and what will not be done... after we have done the bare minimum, I will then go to my mental shelf, or actual shelf, or written plan/shelf and pick and choose as to what is doable for the day, for the child, and in the big picture for that moment... what this does is give me to be done, if we need to be done for the day, or continue on in grammar, as this is the current topic of discussion... the factors that influence my choices may be chores, moods, weather, current projects, how long it has been since we did grammar, or math game, or whatever else. This brings freedom to me b/c I am an ENFP personality type, and I need flexibility... within a plan. so, I still have Hake Grammar. we are still going to do it, but some weeks maybe we will do 4 lessons a week, others, maybe one or none... for a few weeks... but grammar, for example, is not going to get done before we have been able to do other tasks, or my children have not learned self-care, or feel centered.... Thank you all for your view points and sharing. These are posts that I will (and always do) re-read or come back to. I was delayed in response b/c we had some attitudes, learning issues, sickness, out of town family, and a birthday all come up. :) ahh.... life... :)

Gosh guys, what a great thread of responses! It helps me have a bit more of a perspective. I won't be able to respond to a lot of the good points... b/c my day and some situations have now taken more time than expected. Also, I've yet to eat for the last half of the day. forgive me for choosing food over grammar discussions! heehee but, reading through some of your posts earlier i wanted to say "yes. that! that!" I'm also going to have to back over and read more, when i have more time and have gotten past this hump of urgent tasks.

Also, Grammar is covered under the Brave Writer addtions, such as Arrow, etc, no? I think I may carry on with Hake, but next year not... we will see...

Thank you for that description. One fear of having too much could be exchanged for having it at all will stump growth. A proper balance must be found. I now that you are a big Brave Writer user/fan, no? Have you found that your studying of grammar with your littles has served them? Despite hearing how it may limit their freedom or voice?

I agree. AND if you are not sure about your health what your doing or one of the above is sufficient. Go with what takes the lest energy from you. Is it far more difficult to make choices and do a full curriculum, or switch what you are doing now? or would it be easier to go with a program? questions for you to ask yourself. which you probably already have/are.

About preparing him to go back... Without a LOT of thought... I would first guess that W&R and Killgallon would really prepare him the most... Although I currently have a written plan to do all three, WWE, W&R, & Killgallon... the only reason I'm keeping WWE right now is for the summarizing...but I think W&R still has some of that... but maybe not as specific... as in narrowing it down to the exact points... not sure... not as familiar... b/c i'm just starting W&R fables this week, and I am only in week 11 of WWE2. ETA: Killgallon, may really help improve the sentences he chooses. W&R may begin to stretch his own writing volume, but it seems to be on level, and not be too much from what i'm hearing, in the even he has to go back and be writing far more... my guess is that most schools have kids just writing volumes more than WWE....? :)

I'm not as familiar with MCT writing, even though I have owned it in the past. I feel that WWE, W&R, and Killgallon are easily all on grade level for a high verbal producer and a low fleshing it out tolerance.

http://blog.bravewriter.com/category/grammar/ I can't believe it.... this article really has me thinking. I love learning about grammar, I'm passionate about it... why? b/c i didn't study it that much when i was homeschooled. I think i may have had a few years of easy grammar, but i fetl that i needed more, or just more in a better way. B/c now... I lack the confidence in my writing....so now, i have begun to study grammar.... AND I've been religiously having my first born study it and have plans for my 2nd... but... i seriously feel my opinion on it beginning to lesson up... maybe even change! I had been using FLL up to level 3 with my daughter, and we just began CC memory work of grammar at home, too. But recently i just made a switch mid year to Hake Grammar 4, and love it! love it, love it! currently we are trying to pair down our tools that we are using... our days feel too. much. as i am dipping my toes into reading what Julie has to say, the author of brave writer... she has moved me... even to tears at times... something in her picture of language arts, and the teaching of it, has really moved me... could it be that my daughter has already had enough grammar for now, and can get more, and enough from Writing & Rhetoric, and Brave Writer tools, as well as CC memory work, for now? Do i drop Hake 4, or just finish it, then go to 6th grade in a year or more....? Just thinking. Thinking, I want to let go of this possible yoke I've been carrying of perfection... and fly? Should i lighten my child's yoke too? is it a yoke? one day she says she LOVES grammar and it is her favorite subject, the next? she HATES it.... she was crying the other day about how she HATES school.... another day she gave me a hug saying how much she loved it... but is there something about it that is at times too much for her... not blaming it all on grammar... I'm babbling now... I will end with saying that I have turned a deaf ear to any and all that have said that you don't need THAT much grammar, at lest not when they are young... and just this past week i reheard SWB reasons for starting grammar young, so that the kids have the proper rules ingrained in them, and it is natural... I guess I just need to rethink... what is best for me and mine.... ETA: I think i'm kind of freaking out. I feel as if I've been plunged into the ocean... where are my barrings!? lol we are JUST about to begin lesson 9 of Hake today... my poor daughter... i've changed so much on her... maybe we will just finish this year out? or drop it? ugh.... The funny thing is, is just yesterday I began thinking we may stop Latin studies and switch to spanish! and even that is surprising to me, too! My husband has been listening to some book on linguistics, and we have been discussing our choices and plan in language studies. ETA, again: I think it is more than just grammar here. I think there is a fear issue. A fear that if my kids don't know how to diagram a sentence properly I will have failed them in writing. A fear that if i drop WWE2 that my daughter will not learn, or be proficient in summarizing the main points in a reading selection, etc.. I think I have some issues. I guess I'm wanting to be free, but I'm scared. For example, even in the last two days I have been spending far too much time evaluating how to combine CAP's W&R with WWE... my indecision has really been b/c I've been scared of missing something. scared that W&R summarizing is not as rigorous as WWE's... maybe staying with just W&R is just fine....? wow... it's amazing the clarity of thought one can have in the early morning hours, when all is quiet... I don't have it all figured out yet, but I feel that the sky is clearing...

thank you for this!