Thank you! Convention was good! :)

Thanks, I'm going to look at it at convention this weekend. It doesn't provide book-specific notes and questions for the history and literature, does it?

That's great that it tells you specifically what map to use for the week! Thank you! TOG will be at our convention this weekend, so I'm hoping to really explore it some more while I'm there. Thanks again for all your helpful information!!

Thanks, that's good to know about the History Response pages!

Thanks, what I mean about the maps is does it say in Week 1 to go pull the map on page xyz for this particular week, or do you have to figure out which one in your level to use? I'm wondering how detailed the instructions are. Have you ever looked at Heart of Dakota? It is CM. :)

Thank you! I forgot they had these free integration guides. It looks like the SL one for elem. world history is a little outdated, but I think could still be useful. The lessons plans are nice. I felt the 5th grade work was a lot, but we could tweak that to meet our needs. Thanks for the head's up on the American History schedules being reversed. I can see that by looking at the topics. I have to compare this with HOD, which uses MapTrek and schedules it all out for you. If only I could combine HOD with SL notes all the way through. :) Kathy

Thanks, I took a look at it. I didn't know it was available. Being very visual, the font made my eyes hurt, lol. I didn't see discussion questions and lit sheets, but I may have missed it. It looked mostly like a schedule with some background info. and art integrated? It definitely has a TOG look to it but with a daily schedule. I think I'd prefer TOG over it. Are you considering it?

Thanks again for all of this info.! So are the history books considered read-alouds at the grammar levels, and the literature as readers? Do you still do it that way in dialectic? So are the MapAids maps just color-coded by level, or does it also specifically tell you which map to pull for the week for your level? We've done some Memoria Press, too. :) I use the recitation, read-alouds, art cards, and music lists for K-2 and that has worked well.

Thank you so much for taking the time to type out the example of breaking out the history for the week and also your schedule! I really appreciate it!! Brain Pop sounds like a really helpful resource. I have seen it mentioned a lot but never looked into it. I will have to do that. My girls enjoy YT (thanks for the acronym, didn't realize that's what it was, lol!) videos and Usborne links to videos as well. I think Brain Pop would be a nice addition to our day if we were able to get everything else in order. Are the activities online, or something else? When you say you didn't bother with the read-aloud, is that the literature for the week, or is that part of the history? If it's the literature, does that mean you didn't do anything for the literature blocks for the week? It's really helpful to see how you pick and choose, and the freedom that comes with that. :) It is really nice that you have that planning time consistently every week. We have dance, but it is chaotic because of my girls switching in and out of classes, and my younger dd still needs me to help her with switching shoes, getting snack, going to the restroom, that kind of thing. Maybe in a few years I can use that time for planning, although there isn't a good quiet spot there. Maybe my car. :) My older dd would do tons of art on her own if I would carve out more time for that. We finish so late in the day that she doesn't get the free time she needs. It has been a hard adjustment trying to teach two. I'm hoping it will get better from here on out. Thanks for explaining how you handled the geography vocabulary in UG. I'll have to look up studystack.com. You are so resourceful! :) Are the geography maps numbered where it tells you which one to pull for the week, or is it just a set that you look through to find the ones you need? I have seen Onenote mentioned a lot but haven't explored it, either. Is it a program you have to download/purchase? I feel like my girls need to learn how to use it. So looking at your schedule, as far as TOG materials go, you are doing: M - History (1 hr), Geography (30 min), Literature (45 min) - the Philosophy wasn't TOG, was it? Tu - nothing Wed - History (1 hr), Geography (30 min), Literature (45 min) Th - Church history (45 min) Fri - History (1 hr), Literature (45 min), Church history (45 min) Do I have that right? Just trying to get a feel for approx. total for the week for 6th grade (approx. 7 hrs, 45 min, the equivalent of about 1.5 hrs a day for 5 days?). What are you using for Bible? Part of our problem has been doing two Bible courses, two histories, two read-alouds, two sciences, etc., and all of those 5 days a week. I think we can try to combine at least in Bible next year. I need to streamline as much as possible. Thanks for addressing the spine issue. So, is there a main book used for the UG level as well, or does that start more in the D level? Is there one for each year, or is it only in year 3? Thanks again for all the specifics! It really helps to hear the details of how you implement TOG. I don't feel pressured to use it, no worries. :) Even if we don't end up using it, I'm sure this info. will be helpful to others who will read this! I bought Love the Journey not long ago and am going to bump it up on my list of books to read. I think it will help me get to know the author better and her perspective on things, and that will give me a better feel for TOG overall and if it might be a good option for us. I'm intimidated by it, but I'm also intrigued, so need to spend some more time with it. I also need to look at the unit I got for free in January. Every time I look at TOG, I understand it a little better. Thanks again!! Kathy

Thanks, Jan. I can understand the competition issue. I sometimes see it with my girls. I think it would probably be best for us to be on the same topic, but in different levels, or with different work for that topic. That's where I see TOG possibly being a fit. I've also thought about Cores D and E for my older, and Beyond and Bigger for my younger. Then Preparing/Cores B and C for my younger over two years and Cores G and H for my older over two years, just to have us on the same era of history. I love the way Christ and the Bible are woven into the HOD assignments as well. We enjoyed LHFHG and Beyond. Bigger was so-so. Preparing has been okay for us so far. I have done Core K between LHFHG and Beyond for both girls, and it has worked out well. It helped them know there was a much bigger world out there than where we live, and gave them a heart for missions. I liked doing that before diving into Beyond. You might could do that with your two youngest. Thanks again for all your thoughts and wisdom! Kathy

Jan, a friend found the link to the TOG literature product I thought I had heard about: http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/company/products/lisya.php#2 It is for Jr. high and they are doing ancients first. If there is a lot of interest in it, then they will develop other products. It is for those who are kind of in between dialectic and rhetoric, and for people not using TOG. I hope they continue to develop these products! Kathy

Thanks again for all the info.! That's a good idea to use the evaluations as discussion questions for UG. Thanks for the reminder about honors vs. regular at the rhetoric level, and about the buffet and trimming it down to suit us. I am one who gets the deer-in-the-headlights look when faced with too many choices. I am doing better with it as I get more comfortable homeschooling and am finding our groove, but I struggle with not knowing what is age-appropriate work and what we "should" be doing. I like when someone else has thought all that out and assigned it for the level we are in. That's where I'm not sure if TOG will work for us, because I have to decide what's enough, which keeps it from being open-and-go for us. I tend to spin my wheels and overanalyze when it comes to stuff like that. TOG would be a leap of faith for me. But I do pray everyday for us to learn what God would have us learn for the day, so I need to trust that He would make that clear for us. I guess what looks overwhelming to me on the Rhetoric questions are the teacher notes for the history and lit discussions. That's where I see a lot of material to cover. I'm sure as I got more familiar with it, I'd get more comfortable with it and know the best way to tackle it. It just seems like a lot, but we are only in 4th grade, so once I'm at that level, it might not be as intimidating. Can you please tell me more about how you structure your history period and your lit period? What specifically do you do during that time? Do you plan it all out ahead of time or do the same thing each week? Do you do the projects? The art? How do you handle the geography? It seems like a crazy long list of terms and I haven't really seen a good explanation of what to do with them. Do you do that during your history period or another time? Do you do the church history during your history time? What do you get from Brain Pop and what are the YT videos? Also, is the history notebook something you are doing extra on top of TOG? What do you put in it? TOG doesn't really include notebooking, right? Our days are really long, too long for a 4th grader (so long that long high school days don't seem like they'd be any different), and really too long for my 1st grader, too, although her day is better. Would you mind sharing your block schedule with me? You can PM if you'd like. I really need some inspiration. I've tried a lot of things but with teaching two, and my younger being very dependent on me, it's really hard to keep things manageable. Part of it is I feel we are very history/lit-heavy. I think I need to look into a schedule again. I tried it at the beginning of the year and it just didn't work for us. I really need to find something that works. I think part of it will be me continuing to loosen up, as you put it, and relaxing and finding the joy in choosing. I do feel like I'm making baby steps in that direction, lol, but the programs we've used so far have been written in such a way that they are not meant to be buffets and you are meant to do it all as-written, and that makes it hard for me to skip anything. Maybe using a program that explicitly tells me it is a buffet and we should skip things would actually help, lol. As far as continuity without a spine, how does it work, exactly? Where does the "flow" come from? Is it from the introduction to each week and the info. in the student activity sheets? The teacher notes and the discussion questions? My dd loves to read and that's why I think a lit-based program suits her well. She also loves to create things and draw. She needs a creative outlet in her work. HOD is good in some ways, but it is a little too specific in exactly how things are to be done and I think sometimes she feels "boxed in". SL doesn't really offer her anything in the way of a creative outlet. We'd have to add notebooking weekly and a project once a month for that, which I think she'd be up for. I think she would enjoy choosing from the TOG projects. She is good at rounding up materials and getting started. I'm bad about getting things ahead of time that we might need. In that way, HOD has suited us because it uses things mostly found around the house. It could be that TOG would suit her well and I'd just need to get a spine for myself, like MOH, to kind of get an overall feel for history. Thanks so much for your time, Kathy

Thanks again for the info.! I'm amazed at all that you are able to do. I can barely manage my two dds, lol. Let me ask you, if you had two dds, three years apart, would you still do HOD? They are too far apart for one SL core (because of the mature topics). Is independence the main reason you chose HOD? If you didn't need your kids quite so independent, would you still choose it? I believe kids should grow in their independence as they get older, but I still want to do history together if at all possible. Thanks, Kathy

Thank you! I appreciate the reminder that you don't have to do it all at the upper levels, and you can drop subjects to keep it manageable. That is a good idea. How do you plan TOG? Do you do certain things certain days of the week or do you schedule it all out ahead of time? I really need open-and-go at this season of our lives. Do you buy the books or use the library? I need the books here because the library does not work well for us. Thanks, Kathy

Thank you for all of this information! I can understand that the Socratic discussion/thinking questions would not have specific answers, and I do want that type of questioning, but it's good to know the accountability questions do have answers. Does UG have accountability questions? I was trying to remember what level they start at. That's good to know that it's not too time-consuming to read the history together in 6th. I'd like to do the same. The literature analysis sounds fabulous. TOG seems to be the only program that really does a good job with this. Did you add Figuratively Speaking in because TOG was lacking anything? Do you use the TOG writing prompts? I probably should reword what I stated about not wanting to be history-heavy. We do enjoy studying history and using real lit to flush it out. I have gravitated toward HOD, SL, etc., because we do. I have gotten this notion in my head that TOG is way more history at the high school levels than HOD and SL. Maybe that is not the case? The rhetoric level just seems intense. I know SL has a gazillion books, but the questioning and output doesn't seem as intense as TOG. Maybe I'm wrong? TOG just seems to take things to a very high level. When I look at the rhetoric level, the pages of questions go on and on. I'm just wondering how much time that would take every week. I want balance in the high school years, and don't want to feel like we are unable to do anything but school because everything is so time-consuming. I know in these lower levels, I have struggled with HOD and SL being so full. I feel LA and math are really critical in these elementary years, and that history can't consume our day. HOD tends to go light and quick on LA and math in these years, and our programs take more time, so in the end our days end up too full because we place more of an emphasis on the LA and math. SL is the same way with their LA. These full days are doing us in. I just want to make sure that whatever we end up with is feasible. I think it's hard for me to figure TOG out because of it being a week's worth of work all lumped together. I have wondered lately, though, if TOG might actually free us up better than HOD and SL at this level. HOD has a lot of tedious components for each day, and with SL's 36-week, 5 day a week plan, we always feel behind. I know we could do a 4-day schedule with them, but it's hard to see those 5-day books and ignore them. :) With TOG it might be easier to pick and choose than with HOD, where it feels like everything ties together and builds on itself and needs to be done. But I just don't know about TOG at the higher levels, and if it will be too time-consuming or not. Also, do you feel TOG is disjointed without a spine? That is another concern I mentioned in my discussion with Jan. I struggle some with HOD and SL because even with "spines", there is a lot of jumping around and it's hard for me to keep everything straight. Sometimes I wonder if one continuous spine might be better for me. I didn't learn history well the first time around, and need all the help I can get. Thanks, Kathy

Thank you! I peeked at it briefly and the users seem to really love it. I am happy with our current LA and science, so I'm wondering if it would be worth it just for the history and lit. I'm happy with our bible, too, so I'm not sure if I'd use it or not.

It won't let me select your entire reply, Jan, but thank you so much for the info.! When do the paper maps start? I didn't realize SL switched over to those. That is great news! Also, that's good to hear that the SL notes mention literary analysis and devices. Are the LA writing assignments tied to the history at all? The lit? Do you think they would be worth doing? That's good to know that you think the SL notes by day are less overwhelming than the TOG notes clumped by week. I think because I am so visual, that's why TOG is so overwhelming to me. It's helpful to know TOG is strongest in the lit department and also to know that the history seems disjointed to you without the spine. You know, I'm remembering now that I recently got an email from TOG and it seems like they have been working on a new literature product that can be purchased separately, come to think of it! I hope I'm not dreaming this, and I will see if I can find it or a link on their website. If this is true, it would be a great way to get lit covered with real books, real help, and in a manageable way. I've consider BJU reading and lit as well, but I don't like the anthology approach and would still have to schedule real books and find resources to cover those. Thanks for your thoughts on the PP guides. I looked at those at convention and just wasn't inspired. So having used SL Core 300 now, would you use it again with your younger kids, or do you think you will stick with HOD through high school? If TOG offered this lit product that I might just be dreaming up, lol, would you prefer HOD + TOG or SL + TOG? I'm concerned about the lack of teacher support in the HOD guides, especially once the kids are working so independently. Are you reading the HOD books? Do you have other kids in the independent HOD levels? How are you making that work? Having used SL and its notes now, do you find that more helpful, or do you still prefer HOD for its other features, even without the teacher notes? Thanks, it's really helpful that you've used these different products and can share your experience! Kathy

Thanks, we have done VP self-paced OTAE some this year. I find myself letting my kids do it on their own and I'm not sitting there watching it with them to know what they are learning. Maybe if it was our only history, I'd pay more attention. I like it, but I think I want to use books instead. I have never figured out how VP works except for the self-paced courses. Their catalog and website confuses me. Do the lesson plans have you reading a history spine and then other literature? Are there book-specific questions and answers for the history and lit? Is it all scheduled out for you? Does it cover literary analysis? Is there written output and does it include activities? With the self-paced, the only output is the printouts of the quizzes and tests. I'm looking for more than that. Thanks, Kathy

Thank you! Can you tell me more about how Biblioplan handles the things I am looking for? I don't really know how specifically it addresses the literature. I am looking for book-specific notes, questions, answers, etc., and for it to be scheduled out. Thanks, Kathy

Thanks! Does it provide answers to all the history discussion questions, or do you have to look some of them up in the World Book blurbs? I thought I had read that on their site somewhere. What levels have you used? I'm a little intimidated by the dialectic and rhetoric levels. It kind of feels like you have to really want a huge history emphasis to use those. I don't want history and lit to take over our day in high school.

Thanks, does it provide book-specific background info. and questions and answers for the literature? Is the lit all scheduled out for you? Does it provide literary analysis? It seems like they use the Progeny Press guides for that? I do like the looks of the Cool History books. I know Biblioplan has been making some good changes over the past few years, and I need to take another look at them. It seems like every year they are making their products better and better, and I appreciate that.

It's funny you say that, Jan, because I have been doing just that this year with Preparing and Core B. They both use CHOW, and SL provides the CHOW background info. and notes for me, while HOD provides the written output, skill building, and projects for me all scheduled out. Doing both is dragging out how long we are taking with Preparing, but I've liked using the two side-by-side. SL provides the picture books that HOD lacks. I've considered adding Core C to the rest of Preparing next year. But then I'm stuck on what to do next. I'll be off both the SL and HOD cycles at that point as far as getting through all the levels I want to get through. I've thought about skipping CTC since we've done so much ancients this year, and then we'd be back on track with RTR, but I don't want the history read independently in HOD without me having good background info./notes to follow along. I just know I won't make time to read those books on the side. We either need to read it together, or I need to have some notes. But I think it will be too much reading to do out loud, with all the other work to be done. I just prefer to discuss history as we read it and not after the fact. I don't want to just be listening to or reading a narration on it, either. I want to be able to have a good discussion as we go through the material. SL helps me better with the discussion aspect as far as the background notes go, but HOD does a better job of keeping things Christ-centered. If I went to SL after finishing Preparing/Core C in 5th, we'd only be on Core D, and there wouldn't be time to do Cores D, E, F, G, and H by the end of 8th grade like I'd like to without doing some combined cores, which I really don't want to do. By trying to do both, I'm losing ground in both and won't be able to finish either one like I'd like to. That's really interesting to hear how you are handling Core 300. Thank you so much for sharing how you are making it more HOD-like! I've thought about having the SL questions be answered in written form, but it seems like too much to do every day. I really like the idea of doing it twice a week and using the other days for oral and written narrations and timeline work. That's also a good idea to combine the timeline work into one day so you aren't dragging it out every day. Doing summary sentences or oral narration for the non-spine book is a great idea, too. Since the highest guide I've done is Preparing, I'm not as familiar with HOD's written output and activities at the higher levels, so this information is helpful. Do you do all your mapwork on the markable map, or do you use paper maps? I commented in a previous reply about how I would prefer to have paper maps with more room to write on. Do you read the Core 300 books, or do you rely on the notes? I'm assuming your child reads the books independently? Do you add any literature analysis to the SL lit? I've gotten the impression that there really isn't much analysis/teaching of literary terms and devices in the high school levels? Are you using the SL LA at all? Is there analysis in there? I really like this plan overall. It would probably help if I was more familiar with the upper HOD guides to know what the written output expectations are. Do you find the SL guides to have too much information, or is it about right? It looks overwhelming when I look at the samples, but I'm not at that level yet. Are you able to do all the Core 300 books? Are you doing Core 300 Bible, too? I've gotten the impression that TOG handles the lit analysis better than HOD, SL, and MFW since it is book-specific from at least UG on (can't remember if it is in LG) and really teaches the literary elements. I don't like the generic nature of DITHOR or the generic read-aloud questions in HOD, MFW waits and then does Progeny Press guides in 7th and 8th, which isn't really how I want to handle lit, and SL just doesn't really reach the literary elements from what I've read. But I'm not as sure about TOG history because there isn't really a continuous spine and the number of questions in the upper level discussion seems overwhelming to me. I'm afraid the emphasis on history may be too much for us (although I don't know, maybe SL would be similar?). But again, I'm not at that level yet. I'm not sure TOG provides answers for everything, either. I think for some things, they expect you to mine the answers from the World Book blurbs, which is a lot of reading for the week. Are you doing Core 300 this way because HOD doesn't have the American History guides written yet? Would you prefer HOD if it were available for these levels? Thanks, Kathy

Thanks, I've looked at TOG many times and have recently downloaded a free unit to try, which I haven't used yet. I'm mostly concerned about whether or not it will be too much of a history focus in later years. I want to maintain balance. The upper levels look kind of tedious to wade through. But maybe once I got into it, it would be exactly what I am looking for. I'm just not sure. I've considered MOH, and I've looked at Illuminations. For some reason Illuminations doesn't seem like quite what I am looking for. I would need something like that to provide the lit to accompany the MOH.

Thank you. I will look into this again. I remember looking at it in the past, and can't remember why I didn't choose it. Is it a Christian program? Can you use it without the writing and grammar? Is the writing tied to the history? I have a separate writing and grammar program I am pleased with. I also don't need science. Does it mess up the program to not use the science?

Thanks, I've considered doing that. Or making Fridays a notebooking day for the first three weeks each month, and the last Friday a project day. I think I'd be okay with that through 8th grade, but then I want more guided output after that, like essay responses, that kind of thing. I'm not really looking for dictation. We get that in our spelling program, so we are good there. I think having used HOD, I see the differences in skill building between SL and HOD. SL doesn't really add in the skill-building like HOD does, where the narrations ramp up over the years (from oral to oral and written, to summary and detailed, that kind of thing), the research increases, there is work with the vocabulary words, the mapwork increases, the drawing skills increase, the notebooking requires more details, and the overall independence increases (I don't want independence in history readings, though, another beef with HOD). SL seems lacking in that area once you've done HOD, and I just don't know if I'll be able to incorporate it the way I want to see it done without it being scheduled in for me. I also wish SL provided paper maps. The markable map gets so crowded toward the end of the year and if you are focused in on one area for most of the year, there is no more room to write and it is frustrating for you and your child. I like to keep a record of the mapwork, so don't want to erase it to make more room. I wish SL handled the mapping differently, or provided other options. I'm sure I could buy a set of maps on CD and figure it out, but I really need open-and-go. HOD schedules the maps for you.