I don't know if it would help, but Heart of Dakota only has the kids get through R&S 6 by the end of 8th grade. The author feels R&S 7 and 8 are high school worthy, based on her teaching experience. Maybe you could relay that to your dd. Hope this helps, Kathy

We are using Grammar Ace this year for 5th and like it. I think it would be thorough enough for a 4th grader. You might want to add more writing. We did a quick run through Diamond Notes at the beginning of this year, then moved on to Paragraph Writing Made Easy, and now are adding in the Core D LA since we just started that core. My dd likes Grammar Ace and I think the changeup for this year has been helpful. We did CLE 100 and 200, part of 300, then switched to BJU 3 and 4 because I wanted more explicit writing instruction. I really like BJU's writing instruction, but prefer CLE's grammar. I'm not sure what we're going to do next year. I wanted to give the SL LA a go for the rest of this year since we can add it to the Grammar Ace without too much trouble. Hope this helps, Kathy

If Singapore is too much for him, you could try BJU math, which is conceptual but good for kids who are a bit intimidated by tough topics. I find it to be middle ground between Singapore and CLE as far as having all the conceptual teaching I want, but also more of a traditional format. It offers facts sheets on the CD in the TM, so the practice is available but not as scheduled out as CLE. It does some basic bar modeling starting in the 5th grade level. It is very explicit in teaching the concepts, and in such a gentle way that it's not difficult to catch on. I like the word problems as well. We did RS A and half of B. Hope this helps, Kathy

Thanks for your thoughts on Fix It. I think most things would be less teacher intensive than BJU, lol. Learning grammar in context is always helpful, I think. Do you feel it teaches most of the grammar concepts you'd find in a typical grammar program? Does it cover any diagramming? Thanks, Kathy

Yes, that's likely what I'll do if I can't find something else just for writing that's cheaper. I actually already have the TMs from when I used them with my older dd. I just hate to use half a workbook, but will if it's the best option I can find. I see you are using Fix-It now. How does it compare to BJU? Thanks, Kathy

Do you know if WriteShop teaches the editing marks and uses graphic organizers? Thanks.

Thank you! That's really good to know. It was a pain using the other book and it was kind of ambiguous as far as the assignments went. This sounds much better. I was looking at the 5th and 6th grade samples and it looks like it still assigns things out of the other book. I hope they change it in the 2nd editions of those as well. ETA: Boscopup, I tried to PM you but it is saying your box is full. :)

I think BJU is stronger in explicit writing instruction, but CLE LA is stronger in grammar and I like that it is more independent and has more review. I like that BJU uses graphic organizers and teaches the proofreading/editing marks. Is there a program like BJU that just covers writing and that would work with CLE LA? I could just use the BJU writing portion, but that seems like a waste, plus it would be expensive. This would be for 3rd grade and up. Which writing programs use graphic organizers, teach the proofreading/editing marks, and have explicit writing instruction? What pairs well with CLE LA? Thanks, Kathy

Thanks for the info.! Kathy

Thanks for the info.! The 1st edition of CLE LA 3 that I used required the book On Teaching Writing. The writing assignments were basically to use that book and find a topic to write on. In general, if memory serves correctly, it seems like the assignments were creative writing assignments. Do the 2nd edition assignments not refer to that book at all anymore? I saw the book is still listed on the website. Is it just a recommended supplement now? If the assignments are only in the LU now, that would be an improvement. I hope to see the 2nd edition at convention so I can make a decision. We switched to BJU 3 for my older dd and I did like the explicit writing instruction in there. But I like the independence of CLE and the review. I think CLE is stronger in grammar, but BJU is stronger in writing. I may have to do different programs different years. :) Thanks again! Kathy

OneStepAtATime, I tried to PM you, but it said you weren't receiving new messages. I was wondering, do you have the new edition of the CLE LA 3? I used the first edition right before they came out with the new one. I was wondering if the format of the writing assignments had changed. The one I had required you to use the separate creative writing book. Does the second edition do that? I didn't find that book helpful and wanted the assignments to be directly within the LU. My younger dd is using CLE LA 2 this year and I'm debating whether or not to use the new 3 next year. I haven't heard what the writing is like in the newer version. Thanks, Kathy

I used RS and now use BJU and I much prefer the BJU TM. I was overwhelmed looking at it at first, too, but I have gotten used to the format now and find it easy to work with. The use of color as you mentioned really helps. If my dd does well on the daily review, I skip the review at the beginning of the lesson, unless it includes something that wasn't on the daily review, which has happened only a few times. I also have figured out that each lesson is made up of several different sections, each teaching a specific concept. At the end of those sections are often several other example problems. If my dd understands the concept, I have learned to skip all those extra examples, unless one looks like it is different enough that it might provide additional insight into the concept. For the most part, though, I let my dd show me on the worktext if she understands the concept, and so far I have not had to go back and use the additional problems. Learning these strategies has helped me work through the lesson more efficiently. BJU teaches very well and makes understanding the concepts almost effortless. I was floored with how well my dd understood long division after her first exposure to it. I had anticipated it being a difficult concept to grasp and planned to camp out on it as long as necessary. But BJU just leads them through the concept beautifully. I think their use of manipulatives really helps the teaching be absorbed more easily. I also have used CLE. It is very strong on learning the algorithm and math facts. It was very strong conceptually for 1st and most of 2nd grade. Toward the end of 2nd grade and into 3rd grade, I started getting frustrated with the lack of conceptual teaching in several areas. I didn't have enough teaching experience myself to know how to fill in the holes. I just knew that they were there. It became very algorithmic in some major areas. We switched to BJU and although BJU requires much more teaching time from me (which I have learned to shave off as much as possible), I feel like I am teaching the concepts again, which is my goal. I'm willing to put in the time now to make that happen. BJU is not independent like CLE and not efficient like CLE, but it's possible to tweak it into a more efficient program than how it's written. The TM takes more time to adjust to, but for me it didn't take too long and has been worth it. I am using BJU 5 with my older dd and BJU 2 with my younger. So I have used BJU 1, 2, 4, and 5 so far. HTH, Kathy

BJU is conceptual and provides a daily review section as well as chapter reviews and cumulative reviews at the end of each chapter. It really explains the "why" and not just the algorithms. I am adding the Process Skills and Math Express books to it, but it does incorporate mental math and a little bar modeling the further along you go in it (around 5th/6th grades). HTH, Kathy

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I agree with Jess4879. We used WWE 1 and part of 2 and BJU 3 and 4 English. I think WWE has a place but I felt the same way as you. I am glad we did BJU 3 and 4 and I plan to at least do 3 again with my 2nd child. BJU is good about teaching the different types of writing, how to use graphic organizers, and the writing process. I especially found helpful the practice in how to make the proofreading marks. My dd has a nice grasp on how to use those marks now as she edits her writing. I agree with Jess4879 that BJU is not as strong on helping kids write strong sentences and paragraphs, at least in the years we used it. I am working with my older dd this year on that specifically using other products. I even bought BJU Eng 5 to use this year, but I just couldn't stomach another year of teaching it. It would just be too teacher-intensive for us right now. And when I looked at the TOC, it looked like what we covered last year at a slightly more difficult level. It was the same types of writing assignments for the most part, and I don't think a child needs to do a research paper every year this young. I would consider using BJU again because I do like it and it does cover what it covers well, but we needed a break from it. I do recommend it especially for 3rd or 4th grade, though. I think it would be valuable to use it for at least a year at that level. Hope this helps! Kathy

I didn't realize bar models were minimally used in MM. Thanks for your thoughts on using MM6 before MM7. I own MM6 and need to look through it again. I appreciate your thoughts on Dolciani as well. I need solutions, too, especially on tests. That would hold me back from using it as well. I need to look into that more. Thanks for the head's up! Kathy

Thank you! I really appreciate all the info. on how you used Dolciani. Thanks also for explaining your reasoning for not continuing with MM. We ran into some of that the year we used the 3rd grade level. I do think it is an excellent program. It just wasn't the right fit for us at that time. My dd needed a bit more building up to the complex problems as well.

Thanks, it's very helpful to know that Foerster builds on itself like that. It's also good to know Dolciani is such a good reference. I'm glad to know that even though it is somewhat random in the way it presents topics, that it is thorough and very straight-forward and explicit in its instruction. That might work for my dd. I'll have to get my hands on a copy. Aren't there different versions? What version did you use? Did you have a TM or a solutions manual? Is all the instruction in the student's textbook? Thanks so much! Kathy

I see, that makes sense, thank you! We definitely don't plan to skip any levels grade-wise. Does MM7 include bar modeling and other things that my dd may not be up to speed on that are inherent to the Singapore methodology? We are doing some of that, but probably wouldn't be anywhere close to where she would be if she were doing MM. Do you think it is better to jump into MM6 or MM7 (assuming we did a different 6th grade program before MM 7)?

Thank you! What did you use prior to Dolciani? I'm wondering if my dd will be up to the challenge if it is harder than Foerster's. I already think Foerster's will be pushing things a bit. We started out with Singapore, but she needed more explicit instruction, not as much mental math up front, and more time with the concepts. She understands math well when it is explicitly explained to her, but she doesn't make jumps or see things on her own very often. The BJU has been good for her because it teaches the concepts well but doesn't practice everything to death. Once she gets it, she knows it well. She just needs that direct instruction. Thanks, it sounds like jumping into MM pre-algebra is not a good idea, that it's not a self-contained course and requires previous use of the other MM levels, correct? Thanks, we have used CLE in the past and I've debated going back to it next year for 6th grade to shore things up. I didn't like how it slacked off on teaching some of the concepts starting in the 200 and 300 levels, which is why we switched to MM and then BJU. But now that we have a lot of the basic concepts covered, I feel like the spiral teaching and review for a year or two might be helpful. I've also considered consolidating 700 and 800 as a pre-algebra course, because I like the practical teaching in the 800 level. I'm glad to know you think it would be a smooth transition between CLE and Foerster's. Thanks for the details! Very helpful! So you agree that jumping into MM 7 probably isn't a good idea, right? Thanks everyone! Did any of you consider Horizons pre-algebra? It seems similar to BJU, but without the tedious classroom-oriented teaching.

We had the Bob books and the Now I'm Reading books by Nora Gaydos. We much preferred the Now I'm Reading books, which are similar in format but much more logical to me. Hope this helps, Kathy

Thanks! We did MM 3 before switching to BJU in 4th. We have been doing BJU for 5th this year as well. Do you think jumping into MM in 7th without having done the previous levels would be smooth? We have done a little bar modeling, but not much. Is it used in the 7th grade level? I'm also trying to figure out if we'll stay with BJU for next year. It is a pain to teach, but I like how the concepts are taught for the most part. Would it be easier to jump in at MM 7 than MM 6? Are you using Math Without Borders with Foerster? If so, how do you like it?

If you have used Foersters/Math Without Borders for algebra and beyond, what pre-algebra course did you use that worked well prior to that? Thanks, Kathy

Thanks, Linda! What do you use for grades for history in high school? Do you grade the history journals? What do you look for? Do you grade the written answers to the questions for the one doing that? Does she write answers to all the questions? It seems like there are a lot of them. Do you find the history notes at the high school level helpful or overwhelming? It seems like there are a lot of them! Thanks, Kathy

Thanks, coffeegal! I appreciate hearing how you adjusted the levels up and down to have the kids doing the same types of writing or covering poetry at the same time. Do you recommend going through IEW for at least one year before tackling TOG writing? I spent at least 3 hours Sunday reading your blog, lol. Loved it! :) It is very informative, and I appreciate having wisdom from a seasoned homeschooling mom! Kathy