The question of rigor is one that I find frustrating. It's hard to answer because it seems to mean different things to different people. LLTL is not hard. I hope no child ever says my programs are hard. I try to teach skills gently. OTOH, they have to learn the skills in order to keep doing the exercises. That's one of the benefits of parsing and diagramming; children don't get to do a unit on direct objects, and then forget all about them again. They have to keep recognizing direct objects when they come across them in all the exercises. They are supposed to continue practicing with the definitions and lists, too. KNOW the information, PRACTICE the information, and do it with real sentences. In grammar, there are only eight parts of speech "and some thingummies like gerunds," as Ellie said recently. :-) I've come round in my thinking; I like covering basic grammar every year. It's like early math: get the facts in early and well, and they'll have the information when they need it for more advanced studies. But it doesn't need to be hard. It just needs to be thorough. That's what I'm shooting for.

Yes. The revised version is the only one available for sale now. That's one of the benefits of self-publishing.

Also, the complaints have been heard. :blush: Levels 1 & 2 will be separated into two separate print books as soon as I can spend some time on this. The revised version is much bigger than the original, which is all I have in print right now. I didn't realize how much of a difference it would make to people.

Popping back in... If you're serious about proofing, PM me. We could become really good friends. ;-) My 4th grader is doing Level 3. It reviews the parts of speech and begins diagramming, so depending on what he already knows, it might still be okay for him. I'm not sure how it compares with PLL. Level 1 does not have any grammar, only punctuation and capitalization, and some memory work with days of the week, etc., so you could start there. To use Level 2 without the grammar would mean skipping the actual lessons. You'd be left with the literature reading, the copywork, the narrations, the picture studies, and the poetry and Aesop's fable in each lesson. So, it just depends on what you're wanting.

Thank you, and no problem. :-) When I named my program, I didn't consider LLATL or think about how confusing the name would be, so it's my own fault. Since the other discussion has died off, I most likely won't be hanging around here much, but please feel free to PM or email me if you have any questions for me.

There are two programs with similar names. I'm the author of Language Lessons Through Literature, and you may be talking about mine since I don't think LLATL calls their books "levels" and mine was just discussed extensively in another thread. Please forgive me if I'm butting in on a discussion about the other program. :-) I'll delete this post if that's the case. My fourth grader is doing LLTL Level 3. He can do it mostly independently. He reads the literature on his own (out loud to his little brother--bonus lesson), and he's been known to read the lesson himself sometimes, too. I prefer to read the lesson with him, though, since there are sometimes questions in the text and I want to force him to answer those before he goes to his workbook. Reading the lesson just takes a few minutes, though. Lessons are usually only 1-2 pages. I usually have him read the fable and the poem himself, though I do like to read the poetry out loud sometimes, too, usually the short ones. :blushing: He types up his own narrations now, and he does the workbook completely on his own, and then we discuss his work. There are two prepared dictations per week, if you choose to do them. My son types these as well, and they also take just a few minutes at this stage; the selections aren't that long. Regarding the implication of low standards from the previous post (if, indeed, this is my program under discussion), Cathy Duffy said of Level 3: "The grammar is definitely more challenging than what is covered in many other third grade courses since children learn to identify and diagram all eight parts of speech as well as comparative adjectives, subject-verb agreement, the concepts of person and tense, appositives, infinitives. Before diagramming them, students mark prepositional phrases with brackets, a strategy I find very helpful. (They don’t learn to diagram prepositional phrases at this level.)" So, it seems that the grammar instruction is at least as rigorous as other third grade programs. Some people use this program a year later, as I do. This, of course, is a choice that many of us make as we evaluate what we want from a curriculum.

Lord willing, Level 4 will be out next September. I'm actually writing 5 first because we need it, but my focus for publishing will be Level 4. I also need it for next September, so there's an extra prod. :-) My hope is actually to have both 4 and 5 out next fall, but I'm not sure if I can write AND proof both of them in that amount of time. And the answer keys. :001_rolleyes: I was so tired of diagramming sentences after finishing Level 3.

I wanted to point out that a separate writing program is not actually necessary, though of course some people will want to, particularly if they have a different attitude towards teaching writing than I do. Here's how LLTL teaches writing. LLTL starts writing very slowly. Level 1 actually begins with the child drawing a picture from the fable, and then telling the instructor about the picture. The second half of Level 1 and Level 2 have standard narrations. These begin with very short Aesop's fables. A parent might prompt a child for "what happened next," but they shouldn't need to do this much because the stories are so short. I follow a more CM approach here, believing that it's better that the child be allowed to tell back the story without a lot of questions and discussion. Starting in Level 4, different types of narrations will be introduced: condensed, amplified, slant, etc. There are also descriptive writing exercises that focus on imitation. I think this is where LLTL is different from most writing instruction. Instead of telling the child how to write a descriptive passage, he imitates one. To me, this is the better way. The upper levels were probably born the day I watched my second son become frustrated with a writing assignment that told him how to write a description instead of showing him a model to imitate. So the instruction is there, it's just different. There are also playing with sentences exercises (re-writing sentences) and beginning literary analysis type questions. These are oral in Level 4, and written in 5 and 6. In a nut shell, my intention for LLTL is for it to be gentle but thorough. I believe that a little instruction through imitation goes a long way, and that narration, both oral and written, is a valuable tool.

My email with the link came about 30 minutes after the subscription emails.

Thank you. :-) I told him you said so, and blew him a raspberry.

It is. :-) I would have honored it anyway. I responded to your email.

Yeah, it's DRM free. You can print enough copies to wallpaper a room, as long as it's not your neighbor's room. :-) I don't like DRM because I think it does more to punish honest people than it does to stop pirating.

Edited to remove sale information since it's over now.

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/barefootmeandering?searchTerms=language+lessons Each workbook has a preview on Lulu. Just click "Preview" under the image, then navigate with the < and > buttons on the top right had side of the pop up. Lulu used to let me put up a PDF preview, which I preferred, but they stopped that now.

Glad that helped. :-) The exercises could be done orally, too. That's probably what I would have done, but I was making copywork pages anyway.

Hope y'all enjoy it. :-) We try to stay one day ahead of the reading so that we can do the lesson in the morning without me having to wait until the reading is done. So ideally, on each lesson day, they read or listen to the chapter for the NEXT lesson after they've done that day's lesson. This just helps me stay focused on actual formal lesson time in the mornings.

Not fuller passages, exactly. Each level has a few books to read, generally one chapter per lesson day. The grammar concept for the day has examples taken straight from the literature. (Usually; occasionally, this just isn't possible.) The exercise and copywork will also be from the literature. The narrations are from Aesop's fables and short stories, so it's not fuller passages. Rather, it's an entire fable or story. These stories are included as part of the text. Does that help?

At the beginning of each lesson, the topic of the lesson and the literature reading for the day are both listed. And the blank boxes in the workbook are for pictures. My kids like to draw. :-)

You're welcome. :-) It's more of a niche program than most grammar options out there, so I appreciate the opportunity to explain it better so that people can decide if it's a good fit for them. I hate wasting money on curricula I can't use, and I assume y'all feel the same way.

I would not use Level 3 with a second grader unless she was very advanced, or unless you were content to let her follow along orally and absorb as much as she can. She would not be ready for the diagramming, and you'd probably have to adjust the amount of copywork. Level 2 could work for the fourth grader if she hasn't already learned the parts of speech, though it will likely feel slow to her. We use audio books to make multiple levels easier. Since the books are in the public domain, free audio versions are usually available at Librivox.

You can also see Cathy Duffy's review here. For those wondering about a specific level, are there specific questions I can answer?

Hey, ladies. I got a request to come answer questions. Re: the secular question, I think it depends on how sensitive you are regarding the Christian faith. In addition to the copywork, and some of the dictation in Level 3, some of the poetry mentions God. I think it would depend on whether a person is just secular/another faith or actively anti-Christian. The former could probably use it, the latter would probably be annoyed. Although I did not want to exclude our faith from the curriculum, I also have a few dear online friends who are pagan, and I didn't like the idea of writing something they would be uncomfortable using. The middle ground is tricky. In either level 1 or 2, there's a single lesson on the Ten Commandments, in connection with command sentences, but it could be skipped. Plus, it's just factual in nature: "The Bible says," kind of thing. Re: levels and corresponding grade levels, this is a personal decision. I don't mean to be confusing, but it depends so much on one's philosophy concerning when to begin formal studies. The levels can correspond to grade levels; I know of people who use them that way. We use the books a year behind, so my second grader is in Level 1 right now, and my fourth grader is in Level 3. My older two boys hated the grammar program that I bought for them, probably because it was one of the first bona fide text books they'd ever seen, which is why I'm writing levels for older children. So, I have a seventh grader and an eleventh grader doing Level 5 as I write it, plus my sixth grade nephew, though only the younger two are doing the writing exercises. My oldest just needs a better grammar foundation. (Yes, the cobbler's children have no shoes.) What I basically had in mind for the upper levels is a series that can be used right after Level 4, but could also be used by Latin-Centered or others who prefer to have a quick run through grammar in late elementary/junior high instead of teaching it every year in elementary. In Levels 5 and up, I am stressing the use of commonplace book entries based on the child's preferences. It seems to me that if we're attempting to instill the habits of a lifetime, then they need to move on to keeping a book of passages that actually mean something to them instead of just continuing to do regular copywork. I am including a basic copywork suggestion for the child who is sure he's never read anything meaningful, at least not that he can remember. Re: the workbooks, they are completely optional. I made them because I needed them, but I did not want them to be necessary in order to do the program. Older children can copy the sentences straight from the book or tablet screen; that's what my fourth grader does. The Level 3 workbook includes the lines for the diagram, but the parent could easily draw those into a comp book if desired, using the answer key if she doesn't know how to diagram herself. Re: the art, the original version of Levels 1 and 2 did have more specific questions about each painting. However, while I was revising it, I read more about what CM had to say about picture study. My overall impression was that the important things were to have the child study the picture closely and describe the picture from memory. She said in Home Education, "We cannot measure the influence that one or another artist has upon the child's sense of beauty, upon his power of seeing, as in a picture, the common sights of life; he is enriched more than we know in having really looked at even a single picture." So I changed the format to keep it more simple, to ask just a few simple questions that might help a child think about, and appreciate, a painting more rather than turn the picture studies into actual art lessons. In all honesty, I'm not fit for the latter anyway. Re: Level 4, my plan is for it to be available by next September since I need it then, too. :-) In the early levels, copywork is the only handwriting, but there are oral writing exercises, e.g. oral narrations and, beginning in Level 3, playing with sentences by restating them. The new levels will have some beginning literary analysis type questions and also some descriptive passages to imitate. It's not a full-on progymnasmata program, but the narrations move on to condensing, amplifying, slant, etc. I'm still working some of this out. You can start in any level with the early books. Level 5 will be a pre-req for Level 6 because there will be no review. I will probably do a Level 7 which will repeat the advanced grammar lessons from Level 6 with new literature. It seems odd to cover basic grammar so thouroughly, and then expect them to get the advanced stuff all in one go. And I'm considering a review book. IF I do that one, it will have a literature reading followed by some diagramming just to keep the skills sharp. So you could choose just one or two books each school year, in any order, until you're finished. Did I miss any questions? :-)

Yes, I read the chapter. Did you miss the bit where I said I AGREE with you about the content of the book? Did you miss the part where this conversation concerns more than just this one book? Did you see, anywhere, me arguing for AO in general, or this book in specific? I also did not say that you argued the book should be banned. Concerning your post, I said, "It reads like something a politician would say to get the book banned." What is it you keep telling people about twisting your words to make it sound like you said something you didn't? You apparently don't like it, so don't pull it on me. As for whether or not your previous response had examples of appeals to pity and fear, they're practically text book examples, and like the chapter from TCOO, they're there for anyone to judge for themselves. Attack, attack, attack. Force people to defend themselves against things they never said instead of arguing points they actually made. Accuse them of twisting your words when you implied something and they thought you stated it outright. That has been your MO throughout this thread, and others. Meh. I can't have a discussion with someone who won't even try to be logical or civil.

Appeal to pity and appeal to fear. Honest to goodness, I'm not just trying to be an ass. However, this is not an argument. It's emotional manipulation, and it makes it difficult to have a discussion. It reads like something a politician would say to get the book banned. I *agree* with you about the content of the book, and this response still bothered me. ------------------------------------- For our household, we try to teach respect for others and their beliefs. I don't believe an occasional book that contains racism, sexism, etc., is going to take precedence in my children's minds over the way we live our lives and the discussions we have.

I've only skimmed it a little, but so far, very interesting.