Demeter
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Posts posted by Demeter
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12 hours ago, perfectlyimperfect said:
It's great that your daughter enjoyed MCT so much! I've read great things about the poetry and would definitely like to expose my kids to those books. We did Grammar Island as well just so I could get a sense of the style. My daughter enjoyed it but I felt like I needed something more. I do have to remind myself that Island is suppose to be a gentle introduction.
In retrospect, had you not done TC, do you think just doing Paragraph Town would've been enough? Or did it need a little something else? Since Caesar's II is part of this year's curriculum, it would probably make sense to do the whole package as that's how MCT meant for them to be used. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that it's a bit of jump between Level 2 and 3 so that's why I've been hesitant to do 3 in its entirety (vs. just Caesar's).
Rod and Staff?! You will be the go to woman for all things Grammar! 🙂
So along the lines of FOMO....I was also looking into Analytical Grammar and Easy Grammar. Sigh....analysis paralysis. 😕
Grammar Island/Practice Island and Grammar Town/Practice Town are enough for where my daughter was/is at (Did you do the Practice Island too btw?). And I think she will be nicely prepared in terms of attitude and knowledge for moving into Rod & Staff grammar. I did the over analyzing too...for deciding where to land with grammar. I was between AG, Abeka/ and Rod & Staff. AG seemed a lot, too much, marking for me. Abeka Grammar (God's gift of language) I actually really liked, but the material is very USA focused. We are not American, so my daughter would be clueless about the topics. And then there is a Rod & Staff. After taking the placement tests I got a 'feel' for it and think it will be alright. But we will need to read and/or YouTube the bible stories as we go along, because my daughter will be clueless about those too! But I'm happy to add some religious studies.
But to answer your main question, No, I do not think Paragraph town would have been enough for us. I needed more hand-holding for 'teaching' writing. We just started Paragraph Town though....so if my answer changes I'll let you know!
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On 10/7/2021 at 11:48 AM, Lori D. said:
Awesome! Thanks for the update. So glad to hear you have found what is working and is a great fit -- and that's a great set of resources you are using! 😄
A few more ideas to go with your Mensa lists, for reading/literature that encourage great vocabulary and sentence structure to transfer over to writing:
- listening to great literature
In addition to reading good literature, listening via read-alouds and/or audio books also enhances vocabulary and internalizes writing structures and rhythms. So include lots of read-alouds (and/or audio books) of works above her reading level but still within her comprehension and interest.
- a classic children's anthology set such as one of the below
Out of print, but you can often find a used set for under $100. The reading level of the selections in these tends to run between grade 4-8, with usually one volume of nursery rhymes and very young child short selections, and also frequently one volume dedicated to classic poetry. These sets are great for free reading browsing, or, assign a short selection here and there as it matches up with what else you are doing.
• My Book House (12 volumes)
• Colliers Junior Classics/Shelf of Books (10 volumes)
• The Children's Hour (16 volumes)
• Journey Through Bookland (10 volumes)past threads comparing the various anthologies:
- "Anthologies: The Children's Hours vs Young Folks Library vs ?"
- "My Book House vs. Journeys Through Book Land -- compare"
- "What vintage reference anthology type sets do you recommend"past threads with ideas on using the various anthologies:
- "How to use 'My Book House' set?"
- "Junior Classics anthology -- what now?"
- "Just wanted to share again how much I really like Journeys Through Bookland"
- "Which 20 books help prepare for reading the Great Books?"
Very long past thread with tons of great classic book ideas.
- 1000 Good Books (gr. 4-6 list)
Booklists by age/grade range, with more ideas of great lit. -- some overlap of the Mensa gr. 4-6 list. Also includes poetry anthologies.
- Ambleside Online by year booklists for each subject
For each "year" check out the "Literature" lists at the top of page, and the "Additional Books for Free Reading" at the bottom of each page. Note that Ambleside uses almost exclusively much older books, and tends to list books which run several grades ahead of the typical student's reading level (the "Additional Books for Free Reading") and the student's interest level/listening level. For a student reading at a grade 5/6 level:
• grade 4 "Additional Books for Free Reading" (readers); a few of the "Literature" as read-alouds
• grade 5 "Additional Books for Free Reading" (most as readers, a few as read-alouds); a few of the "Literature" as read-alouds
• grade 6 "Additional Books for Free Reading" (over half as readers, some as read-alouds ); a few of the "Literature" as read-aloudsThanks so much for all this info and the resources! The Mensa reading for excellence seemed a good jumping off point for us. But great to know of other options. Also, appreciate the reminder for audiobooks. We do read-alouds, but audiobooks would be a nice addition 🙂
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22 hours ago, perfectlyimperfect said:
Would you recommend starting with IEW instead of TC? I was on their website the other day and also dread having to watch the videos. I guess I'm trying to balance between super intensive hands on programs vs. totally hands off. I don't mind prepping and teaching but it does get exhausting with my 5th grader and my 2nd grader who are learning completely different things. Most days I feel like I'm just surviving and we are only in October. 😕
Fix-it sounds like a winner. I will definitely order that one. Thank you for that suggestion!
Thank you again for your help!
You totally could. I was just so curious about TC, and thought we could try and zip through it over the summer and then do IEW this term. If it wasn't a good fit, then I figured I would still be able to use TC with my younger daughter in grade 4. So not a waste. We slowed down over the summer, and are still doing TC. But we'll be finished mid- November. Then I would either do Cover Story or IEW...but leaning towards Cover Story.
TC is not super intensive. It's my daughters most independent subject right now actually, as we are in the outling/paragraph section. Now that she actually knows HOW TO outline and construct paragraphs...she's good to go on her own. It's definitely 'young' for her, but it's teaching the basics very quickly. And I can constructively guide her now (at this stage at least!).
I understand about running two different curriculums! Still trying to find our balance too, but I will say, it's much improved over our first year.
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21 hours ago, perfectlyimperfect said:
That makes sense - about not wanting to overload her with writing. I had been on the fence with the MCT curriculum due to mixed reviews. Her class did Caesar's English I last year, so it was my intention to continue her with Caesar's II this year, but wasn't sure about the other parts of the curriculum vs. using other programs out there. There seems to be so many well regarded ones that it's tempting to look into all of them but I would go broke! I guess it's FOMO? Thank you again!
I understand that it has mixed reviews. It's such a unique style of curriculum.
I ended up going with the whole MCT Level 2 Town package for 2 main reasons. First, my daughter enjoyed Island (Level 1) soooo much last year and now loves grammar and learning about language (we started with Island because she had zero grammar teaching and was coming out of French immersion). Second, with an older child, Town moves very quick! Grammar only takes a month, if that. We are mostly just reading through Paragraph Town, as it is a really great compliment to the Paragraph section in TC, as well as being a general resource for writing assignments . And Caesars English I and II, as you already know is fantastic, and we are not rushing that. Last year Poetry Hemisphere transformed the way she thinks about writing and the relationships between words and sound, so we just had to continue with Building Poems. The literature books are classics that she would be reading anyways. We will be finished the whole Town Level 2 by January, with the exception of Caesars English. The program is time consuming, on my part, as I read through everything with her. But it's a very pleasant time! Such a beautiful curriculum with every part reinforcing the other.
I am planning to move to (gasp!) Rod and Staff (5) for Grammar in the winter....but we will see....I might end up with the MCT Level 3 grammar Voyage homeschool package. Like you say, FOMO!
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19 hours ago, perfectlyimperfect said:
Curious to know if you looked into using IEW since you are using Fix-it? How/why did you land on using TC and Killgallon (vs any other contenders)? They both sound great - just wondering if there was anything in particular about these two that pushed them higher on the list than some of the other programs.
Yes, I did look into IEW. I had intended to be finished TC over the summer, and then was considering both Cover Story and IEW. I had initially planned on doing this first semester using IEW and then starting Cover Story afterwards. But we are still working through TC (she gets SO into the stories and the writing, it's taking longer than I thought)....soooo I've decided to let her do Cover Story before IEW. Simply because I know she will love it and I want to keep her enjoyment for writing going. And January/February/March is miserable weather where we live and Cover Story just looks fun! Hoping it will off-set some of the winter blues. So between IEW and Cover Story, one was not higher on the list necessarily. I would have been doing IEW now probably, if we were not still on TC. This also gives me more time to purchase and watch the IEW structure and style seminars which I'm kind-of dreading, lol.
Also, I just wanted to add that she does really like Fix-it and was learning a lot. We just slowed down over the summer and haven't picked it up again. We were getting too much grammar for a while there.
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On 10/8/2021 at 7:06 AM, ieta_cassiopeia said:
Ticket to Ride also has a computer game/app version, which is useful if you need something that counts as "productive screen time", that is portable in low-luggage situations (e.g. on holiday) - or you just plain want some variety of maps without filling half a cupboard with the different Ticket to Ride variations that exist.
Editing to add that I just realised I'm replying to something that was said a long time ago and OP may no longer find useful.
Thank you, I appreciate the reply! I didn't know about the app.
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On 10/7/2021 at 7:19 PM, beffers said:
I'm also so curious about this -- just started homeschooling my 3rd grade daughter after pulling her out of Mandarin Dual Immersion. She does not love to write (hates putting pen to paper -- I'm trying several months of "lazy eights" exercises with her to see if that helps) but is a prolific English reader. Her problems may be different than your daughter, as her issue is more hesitancy regarding output than poor grammar or spelling.
I'm starting her with WWE2 as our main writing curriculum. We are going through rather quickly and my tentative plan is to do WWE and most of WWE3 this year. I saw that you considered that for your eldest but ended up going a different direction, yet noticed you are still using WWE with your younger child. Why did you end up steering away from WWE for your 5th grader?
Well interesting that we both have the same plan for our 3rd grade daughters. I am working through WWE2 with her as well right now. She does not like to 'write', but I think it's because she finds it verrrry tiring. She does love to tell stories and have me write them for her.
As for my older daughter. I tried some WWE with her last year (some WWE3 and then 2) and it just didn't go well. She had a difficult time 'getting' the writing, remembering the details in the passages (to answer the questions), and then narrating/summarizing. We were both floundering and frustrated. That was probably due to my unfamiliarity with the WWE method (and homeschooling in general). So WWE went on hold, as I allowed her the time to free-write stories, which she loves. I am now more familiar with WWE after having completed WWE1 and part of 2 (with my youngest), and my older daughter is now more accustomed to the type of literature in WWE, so I think I will try WWE3 again.
Honestly, my biggest issue is that every curriculum I choose for both my girls is very teacher involved/intensive and simple run out of energy to 'do it all' well...or I probably would have kept WWE in the mix.
Hope that answers your question, and feel free to ask any more.
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On 10/7/2021 at 3:16 PM, perfectlyimperfect said:
Thank you SO much for your response! This is very helpful. My dd also needs to shore up her foundation skills and I definitely need to understand how to teach writing.
I hadn’t heard of the Outlining workbook but it’s definitely something she could benefit from. It’s now in the shopping cart. 😊
With MTC - are you using the entire curriculum? Or just the grammar book?
Thank you again!!
You are most welcome,
We have been using the whole curriculum, except for the writing portion. For the writing portion (Sentence Island, Paragraph Town, etc) we have mostly been reading through the books and discussing the material. As I mentioned, we are moving through at a bit of quicker pace due to her age. The poetry and vocabulary books (both exceptional and enjoyed immensely) already have some writing assignments, and I don't want to overload her with writing.
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On 10/5/2021 at 6:02 AM, perfectlyimperfect said:
Hi! I came across your post and felt like I was looking in a mirror. First year homeschooling and with a 5th grader who loves to write but could use help in all the ways you mentioned in your post. The thread had a lot of wonderful suggestions. For this first year homeschooler, I am overwhelmed with all that's out there. I just want to be able to provide my kids with a solid education so they do not fall behind when they return to ps next year. Would you mind sharing where you landed? And advice/insights you have would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!
Hi! So here is where we are at right now.
We have been using the 'Outlining' workbook by Remedia publications (very helpful, straightforward exercises for outline skills). We started working through Treasured Conversations (TC) at an accelerated pace, and will be finished before Christmas. TC focus' on precise word choice, paragraph structure and then basic report writing. While it is a bit below her grade level, its shoring up her foundation skills and it is definitely helping ME with understanding how to teach writing (and she loves the story writing!). Then we plan to do 'Cover Story'. Alongside that, we will be doing Killgallon Sentence composing for Elementary school (A worktext to build better sentences). She also gets an opportunity to practice her new writing skills through our history curriculum, History Odyssey (Ancients).
In terms of broader Language Arts, we have continued with the Michael Clay Thompson, because she enjoys it so much. We started Fix-it Grammar last term, but have not finished it because we were getting too much overlap with grammar instruction (between MCT, TC and Fix-it).
MOST importantly, I did a major overhaul on her literature. Last year I boxed up all our books that were not really high quality literature. I started introducing books from the Mensa reading list for grade 5/6. Hands down, that has had the most significant impact on her own writing. I was inspired to do this by watching THIS clip from The Good and the Beautiful book blog about how books have changed in the last century. I watched the first 4 minutes of this clip, and it was HUGE wake-up call for me...you are what you read. https://goodandbeautifulbooklist.com/howbookshavechanged/
Oh, and I also got her a MadLibs book (grammar, parts of speech), which the kids find hysterical and do for fun in the car!
Let me know if you have any questions at all. I'm happy to share our journey!
D
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15 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:
Yeah, we don’t use TWSS or the SSS - we jumped directly into one of the Theme Books. My order came with temporary access to a set of video workshops (about 24hrs of material) & those were plenty to get going.
Oh gosh...clearly I need to explore the program more. I didn't get past the TWSS or SSS and thought you *had* to do those first.
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On 3/15/2021 at 4:44 PM, PeterPan said:
If you were to go to a psychologist for evals, usually for ADHD they're going to do an EF (executive function) survey and maybe a sustained attention computer test. Some of that, if you think hard enough, you already know. I'm all for evals, been down that path a lot, lol, but you are already seeing it. The biggest jolt for me was the processing speed. That I knew nothing about and didn't anticipate. She did everything so FAST that I really had no clue how affected her processing speed was. That just varies with the kid, but it's something to notice too. It caused the issues with math, because her brain would bog down in the processing. They can quantify it and it's a disability. It responds to meds btw. I probably should have medicated a bit early than we did (16). If I had realized the things it would improve on her, I would have medicated earlier. It wasn't really about behavior or being bad, because her behavior was good. Her math and ACT scores went up dramatically with the ADHD meds.
Thank-you for bringing up psych evals. When my daughter was in Montessori preschool/kindergarten her teacher noticed a few *red flags*. The psychologist said she was a bit young for a PsychEd test, but the school offered to use some funding to pay for it so we went ahead. I just found some of my scribblings of her results. Everything was high-average (working memory, processing speed, visual/spatial, fluid reasoning)....everything *except* verbal comprehension (50%) and they said specifically 'verbally expressing concepts.' Their recommendations are very much in line with some of yours (like her getting concepts better in isolation, keeping things simpler/shorter, keeping learning visual and/or written). Oh, and they said she had some 'Emotional-Attention disregulation', but not ADHD. When my daughter went on to French PS for grades 1 to 4 the teachers said she was doing just fine and that she had been too young for the PsychEd results to be meaningful 🤔. And honestly, I was totally overwhelmed by the report... and since the public school disregarded it, I kinda did too!
Soooo....I guess now I'm going to find her report and pop on over to the LC board to do some sleuthing! Hoping I can glean some more tips for maximizing her success in all learning. Really glad you brought up that *something* might be going here!
On 3/19/2021 at 4:16 PM, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:My DS8 loves to write & IEW has been great for him! I think a lot of people overdo the checklist side of IEW, making it more rigid than it ought to be & losing sight of the actual intentions of the program. Then it becomes arduous & monotonous.
It’s not meant to be the only way they ever write. The techniques they learn aren’t meant to be the definition of “good writing”. You’re simply providing tools (& experience using those tools) that the student can later pull from as desired to suit their audience & purpose. It’s all meant to be outgrown.
Thank-you...this was very helpful! I'm considering the program... just a bit apprehensive due to the combined cost of the Structure and Style for teaching AND student. It's a bit of a leap!
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I just want to say a big THANK-YOU to everyone who replied to my post. There are some great options for curriculum here 😀 ...and you've all helped broaden my understanding of how to *think* about our writing journey in homeschooling. I've appreciated all the comments, perspectives, advice and support!
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18 hours ago, Lovinglife123 said:
By the way, you’re doing a great job! 🤗
This is nice to hear. I needed that! Thank you!
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19 hours ago, Lovinglife123 said:
I totally agree but her goal is to be able to do WTMA. 🤷🏼♀️ Some parents don’t know how to “go over” writing (including myself). WWE looks pretty gentle.
The WTMA is a sort-of goal. It's only a goal if it works for her. I guess I just want her to be in a place where she *can* take online courses for her age level. And yes, some "going over" writing strategies would help me out 😄
18 hours ago, PeterPan said:Oh definitely review! Anything that is automatic means they don't have to drain so much working memory and mental RAM to do it. Also consider giving her a straightforward, brief sentence as dictation. As her to punctuate it completely, capitalize completely. So then you're starting to see what is there as a skill when the demands and stress are down.
If she can punctuate and capitalize with a brief dictation sentence (or find the errors when editing), then she know how and has the skill and is just having it jumble when she has to do ALL THE TASKS at once.
I didn't have time to mention this earlier, but there are some inbetween support strategies too that she could use right away to see if she can get these errors down. She could give her dictation orally using a voice recording app on your phone, ipad, tablet, chromebook, whatever you have lying around. Then she can go back and slowly type her narrative from the audio she dictated. This way she doesn't have to worry about losing her thoughts.
She could also create what IEW calls a keyword outline. Most of the progym based programs are probably going to do something similar. She just needs some chicken scratch, a map, something she gets down fast. You can write those key words or she can. Nuts, they can be pictures! Again, we're trying to create some supports and structure so that she's not having to hold so much in her brain at once.
And of course another strategy is, well I'm not sure the polite term because a trained writer used a horse manure term about it. But let's just say she can write a horse manure draft, ugly draft, whatever she wants to call it, and then go back and TIDY her draft. It's a normal thing for people who are going fast to turn out UGLY drafts and then TIDY them to get to their final pretty version. So that's where maybe hand written isn't serving her well except, hello, it was in PENCIL, lol.
I think it's ok to use motivators. Like have a bowl of m&ms in front of you and when she brings it you go wow you did so great, was there anything you wanted to edit/tidy? And for each thing she edits you hand her an m&m. Boom. Now editing your draft is awesome and punctuation is rewarded.
Good advice for determining what her skill is using a straightforward dictation. To be honest, from what I have observed, she doesn't knows any rules. I think she is just guessing from her experience with reading.
I'm *getting* that she needs extra support and structure. Thank-you for the variety of strategies to help with that structure. And I love the M&M rewards. She would love that.
18 hours ago, PeterPan said:Have you ever played Ticket to Ride? Low working memory will be glaringly obvious with this, because they have to plan out their train routes, figure out how many of each color ticket they need, hold that in their mind while strategizing what cards to take... It's an ADHD and low working memory nightmare! Same gig with Catan. But conversely, that means playing the game is a way to BUILD working memory.
Working memory is very much use it or lose it, and you can always have more. So yeah, if you go to Walmart and buy Ticket to Ride or Ticket to Ride London ($20, very fun!!), you can call it school.
She sounds very self aware, with the way she's telling you she likes lists, etc. You might ask her what other things she notices about herself or has noticed she needs to do well or has noticed are hard. Like my dd made the comment at one point when she was trying to scrapbook that she wanted to and liked to but had such a hard time focusing. She KNEW, kwim?
If you were to go to a psychologist for evals, usually for ADHD they're going to do an EF (executive function) survey and maybe a sustained attention computer test. Some of that, if you think hard enough, you already know. I'm all for evals, been down that path a lot, lol, but you are already seeing it. The biggest jolt for me was the processing speed. That I knew nothing about and didn't anticipate. She did everything so FAST that I really had no clue how affected her processing speed was. That just varies with the kid, but it's something to notice too. It caused the issues with math, because her brain would bog down in the processing. They can quantify it and it's a disability. It responds to meds btw. I probably should have medicated a bit early than we did (16). If I had realized the things it would improve on her, I would have medicated earlier. It wasn't really about behavior or being bad, because her behavior was good. Her math and ACT scores went up dramatically with the ADHD meds.
We DO have Ticket to Ride Europe, but haven't played it. We can try it....it looks just as painful as you described, but we will give it a go! 😄
Interesting what you are saying about ADHD. Sounds like your daughter could really compensate well enough that the issues were tough to detect. I'm glad to hear how well she's doing and that the meds helped so much. Nice to hear positive stories about medications!
18 hours ago, PeterPan said:We did it orally for a while. It's fine. Fwiw, sometimes with these kids, less is more. So whether it's R&S or Abeka (which honestly are pretty similar), she might not need to do Every Single Exercise. We ended up doing 3 tasks in a section and if she nailed those we moved on.
Good info!
18 hours ago, PeterPan said:Oh my lands, this is SO real. Cathy Duffy calls our mistakes tuition in the University of Home Ed. LOL I had to learn about myself and how to tell myself to deal with structure. I was so idealistic out and there and flighty and creative. I still am crazy, but now I'm like ok just find a sorta ok spine that can work for a while and work it. Make the plan, work the plan. And then when we finish the plan, make another plan.
I don't seem to do too well being someone else, with the whole 180 days of lovely file folders of tasks. I would love to be that, lol. Nope, I make a plan, work it, then make another one.
Hahah! Yes! I am having to learn so much about myself and my children! It's crazy. But so worth it. I'm making the plan 😄
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1 hour ago, regentrude said:
I like her writing. very fresh, and I can see how she is mimicking the style of the books she is reading.
If this were my child, I would not do ANY formal writing curriculum. I would let her read liberally, a wide variety of genres and periods, and have her write, and write, and write. Go over some of her writing and correct language mechanics, word choices. Focus on one aspect each time.
I pulled my kids out of PS in 5th and 6th grades respectively and never did any writing "curriculum". We read LOTS. Both became excellent writers.
Her writing always makes me smile...always. ❤️
Thank you for sharing this! It sounds like your children benefited immensely from their literature exposure. It's encouraging for me to hear of others taking their kids out of public school at this stage.
Yes, my daughter is definitely mimicking the style of the books she's been reading. We are broadening the scope of her literature and she's thriving with that change! 😀
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3 hours ago, Lovinglife123 said:
I have to agree that the curriculum doesn’t matter much. Since you are new to homeschooling, I would just pick something and give it a good 4 months at least. If you are not interested in doing WWE and feel MCT isn’t enough, These are two programs I use that are open and go.
Rod and staff would probably be the safest bet for getting her up to grade level, you both would understand it clear as day, and you can do MCT on the side, a little WWE as you feel inclined. However if all you did was Rod and staff, it is enough on its own. Pretty quick and easy to do. Includes writing and grammar. Can be almost completely independent. My one child who likes things broken down, really likes it. He knows exactly what to do, and how long it will take. He does have some adhd/asd type issues. For him, he can not have a “creative” assignment at this point without melting down. He does not mind the writing in rod and staff. Grade 4 is a good place to start. It used to be the gold standard to writing and grammar, SWB used to recommend it until she wrote her own. Heart of Dakota uses it as part of their curriculum, and there may be others. Based on your goals for wanting her to have a good foundation, this has been around forever and works really well for that. It’s also very affordable, you can get the teacher manual and student textbook used for very little, even new is still very affordable.
If you want something fun with some structure, more spiral- The good and the beautiful level 4 has grammar and writing in it, with art, geography, and spelling included as well. I haven’t used their new one, but looks much improved over their old one. This one would appeal to some of my children (not the rod and staff child). More artsy, has little check boxes to mark off as you go, visually appealing, but it may or may not catch her up by a certain grade level like rod and staff if your child needs a mastery drill and kill type program. Since it’s free you can download and print off a few lessons and see if it’s a good fit. Many children use it a level below grade. They will have a new updated level 5 out in the fall.
A simple checklist helps too for mom and child distraction , he gets his adhd from me🙃
Thank you for your posts! So helpful to have different perspectives. Rod and Staff are on my radar too. My daughter would like the directness of the program. I have been trying out all manner of organizing and checklists for myself too. Keeping myself organized and focused is a huge part of the equation actually. I'm adhd too, and have managed just fine for decades. But the homeschooling is realllllllly stretching me 🙃 And I seem to be choosing every teacher intensive program on top of it. 😆 Thank you for sharing the demo checklist.
41 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:I also would not discount WWE based on something about working memory. If you understand it and it’s in your home already there’s no reason not to try level 3. You have MCT and WWE, both are phenomenal programs. Sometimes it just takes sticking to one thing. If she’s in tears after WWE every single day, regardless of level, then I’d say try something else. “Fear of missing out” happens to all of us 😞. There’s just too many options!
This is true! FOMO is real! 😆
The reading passages in WWE are so lovely...I can't resist them. I will try them out with her...she's always game for anything Language Arts related. I agree that sticking to one thing is the most beneficial. We've *stayed the course* since the Fall and now I see where I want to adjust. I do want to stick to one thing for the next while, so I'm trying to be smart about my choice. Thank you again!
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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:
I don't know that I'd make assumptions about working memory from a few writing samples. If you want to know how her working memory is, you can probably do a test. That could be what's going on. Or it could be something else. It's hard to say.
I'll look at doing a test. Yes, it could be a combination of factors. She says she's never been taught punctuation or capitalization in school...buuuuut I'm not so sure that's the case 😆. We will definitely work some review in regardless.
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44 minutes ago, PeterPan said:
While you use a Mensa book list with her...
ADHD does not = dumb. It = achieves best with high structure and supports. It's misplaced attention, not inattention. It can be high ability with enough supports.
You're seeing high ability in that narrative and the fact that she did well in an immersion program (did she?) shows ability. So trying to shove her square peg into a round hole of some sequence might not be the best way to get her going forward. Big projects, something engrossing, but still high structure might unlock her better. That's why I suggested National History Day.
This comment about the Mensa book list made me LOL for real! 😂
Yes, she DOES have some real strengths. I think her mind thinks very big, but it's difficult for her to get it out. And she's consistently inconsistent (if that make sense). So your suggestion of 'Big Projects' with structure could be the ticket for her.
Actually, even though she isn't diagnosed ADHD, a Dr. once suggested we read a *Girls with ADHD* book. He obviously suspected she might have some ADHD challenges.
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35 minutes ago, PeterPan said:
Oh that's interesting!! What is your plan to keep up with this? You could get fairy tales and books in both languages. So maybe your gut is right that it's time to move forward her *english* language development. The more complex syntactical structures are used more in literate english, in writing, rather than spoken english, so to get that exposure she's going to need to be reading it. But that immersion experience was such a blessing, it will be good to run them in parallel and keep the french going!
I used Mavis Beacon typing with my dd and paid her for progress.
You might come over to LC and ask for book lists on ADHD. Just assume and do some reading, kwim? Structure is THE buzzword with ADHD, and that's what she's asking for with those lists. You dn't have to have a diagnosis to use strategies.
Check out that Mindwings/Story Grammar Marker link I gave you. It's your best resource. They have helpful videos on youtube explaining the methodology. It's gonna bump you forward leap years in how you work on narrative language.
She loves French and was doing well! (Except Math was a struggle). I don't know how we are going to keep it up yet. I need to think about that too! Fairy tales in both languages is a great idea!
She actually loves to practice typing and I will look at that program.
I will go peruse LC! Yes...I'm starting to get that about Structure. It's like she needs the structure to *rest* on.
I'm off to look at Mindwings! 😃
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3 hours ago, PeterPan said:
Seriously, why are you letting every worry from people out there decide your curriculum? Don't do this! My dd did a class in a co-op where they were doing an IEW-like approach. It wasn't IEW, but the teacher had her models and was doing something similar. It was FINE. My dd enjoyed the structure and the clear plan. She enjoyed editing and giving feedback to others. There are many reasons why it can be good! You just do it FASTER with a more creative dc and you don't belabor it. You know why you're using it and you focus on what you want out of it.
So I'll tell you a secret. As long as you:
-make it easier to get her writing out (ie. smoother hand or typing or both)
-build working memory
-start outlining interesting sources (well written magazine articles, whatever)
it doesn't MATTER which curriculum you use this year. You could use TC or W/R or IEW or Cover Story or any of those. You have some basic things that need to happen to get her ready to launch. I would do something for grammar, something for sentence combining, something that helps her see structure, while working on those foundational pieces. But really, no matter what you use you'll look back and say it was fine. And next year, you'll balance out and push more another direction because you'll have the foundation to do that.
I'm looking at the list of writing they do in Cover Story. If you go with that, would probably have her outline one Muse magazine article a week. Won't take long or suck her soul too dry. Then in 6th look into National History Day. She would do GREAT at it.
I appreciate you letting me know your concern about using WWE with her.
Thanks for sharing your daughters experience with that type of IEW program. I see what you are saying about IEW helping to give structure.
Your concise outline of the skills we should focus on at this time is helpful. I was having a difficult time determining what her weaknesses were and what programs were available to address them.
I haven't heard of Muse Magazine before, but I just looked it up and I'm so happy you mentioned it. She will enjoy that!
Once again, thanks for your time and considerate responses. All very helpful.
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2 hours ago, PeterPan said:
I missed it, why are you waiting? Hahaha, lesson NUMBER 1 of homeschooling--don't wait!! When you find something and it's right, do it.
So many times I would get stuff and think oh that's for fall, and by the time we got there my dd had outgrown it. No, if she's liking it, make it happen! Yeah, looking at the samples, I don't see the issue. If her reading level is there and she can read the samples and do the work, it's FINE.
Only waiting because Cover Story is geared for grade 6-9. She's on the younger end of the recommended age and I think taking the time to work on a few foundational skills will help her be successful and enjoy the program more. I haven't looked at it closely yet actually. But good to remember that these kids grow/change fast!
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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:
I think you can see in her writing that she's having trouble with working memory. I would *not* place her so far back in WWE but would instead use games and activities to build working memory while working her progressively through something for grammar. I agree with the JAG/AG suggestion, but I also really liked Abeka grammar with my dd.
First of all....a big thank you! Your thoughtful response is very much appreciated.
How interesting regarding the working memory ! You can tell that from her writing? I will look into this.
We just worked through MCT Grammar Island. We are switching to something more structured, and will keep MCT as a fun supplement. Thanks for suggestions!
1 hour ago, PeterPan said:I agree with the suggestion to do the sentence combining workbooks from Killgallon. Also look at what she's reading and see if you can give her literature on audiobooks that will stretch her language. WTM recommends fairy tales for 5th and they could be GREAT. WTM has a list, but also ask your local librarian.
Has your dd been taught cursive? Can she type? Given that her working memory is probably low and that her hand is slowing her down, I would be looking to teach her a smoother handwriting (cursive, italics) or typing or both. She's at a GREAT age to be doing this, and cursive is something the ps seem to be largely dropping without evidence or rationale. Cursive or a smoother hand like italic would speed up and automate her handwriting. Most adults write with a blend of cursive and print and she is not there yet. She could pick her own script, something she enjoys and likes the look of.
We will be getting Killgallon. She will enjoy it too I think!
Thank you for mentioning the reading material. I did a major clean-up of our literature recently. Good-bye 'Babysitters Club', hello 'Sleeping Beauty'! We are now using the 'Mensa for Kids Excellence in Reading Program' as a guide. I will look at the WTM list too. She loves to read and she is just fine with the *stretch.* She's starting to use her on-hand dictionary and thesaurus too.
I should probably mention that she was in French Immersion PS from Grade 1- Grade 4. Everything was in French. We don't speak French, so when she came to homeschooling this past October it was a big change.
No she has not been taught cursive. We actually have Getty-Dubay Italic (better for her left-handedness apparently) and will being it this week. And we have been alternating between writing and typing to get a sense of what works best.
2 hours ago, PeterPan said:Since she likes working from lists, she might respond well to IEW. I wouldn't let that replace joyful writing, but it could be that tool that gets her doing some structured writing, quick and dirty. I used Paragraph Writing Made Easy at that age with my dd, which was quick and dirty, learn the types of paragraphs, boom. I also had her outlining interesting articles so she could see how excellent writers built their arguments. We were using articles from Muse magazine, but see what you can find. This gave my very ADHD dd a lot of lightbulb moments on structure.
I just found out she liked working from checklists...just this week actually. She hasn't been diagnosed ADHD, but I suspect....so that you for your sharing your experiences of what worked for your daughter.
2 hours ago, PeterPan said:To work on working memory, you can play games, use digit spans, or even do free activities with a metronome app that you throw on your tablet or ipad. Heathermomster has posted instructions for metronome work over on LC. You can do it and as the movements become easier begin adding in digit spans, distractions, etc. For games, you can do them visually with games like memory or auditorally where you give fun commands that she repeats and does. I suggest mixing it up, doing it a variety of ways.
WWE is torture for kids with poor working memory and it's not really instructing them on the things that are difficult. It won't make her hand more fluent, won't teach her structure, and is connecting something she enjoys (writing!!) to her weakness (working memory). So you separate them and play games to work on the weakness and let her keep enjoying writing. Don't kill her joy of writing because you're worried. Some of what you want to see will come together with time and patience and filling some holes on your part.
This is all new to me! Thank you! Maybe the working memory games will help me too 😆
Very helpful information in regards to poor working memory and WWE style narration. I definitely want to maintain her love for writing. I just started WWE I with my younger daughter who I actually suspected of having poor working memory....and the narrating back IS torture for her.
2 hours ago, PeterPan said:And then for a story. My dd, diagnosed ADHD at 12, had those long verbose narrations, a funky hand, difficulties with working memory. She swore and swore she didn't like writing, even though she clearly had it in her and did it for pleasure. We did those things like metronome work, getting her handwriting more fluid, teaching her to type (not easy in her case!), etc. She blosssomed around 7th/8th and went from having me worried to being very wow, doing DE classes, doing 300 level philosophy classes with papers her freshman year, and getting top scholarships!
So worry less and be patient more. What you want to see WILL COME. She clearly has the ability. One, don't kill it with worry. Two, look for foundational skills and seeds you could give her. Sentence combining is good. Literature rich environment is good. Typing is good. Learning about her Executive Function, getting things diagnosed, etc. is good. Let it come together.
Great advice! I truly appreciate the time you took to respond. Wonderful to have such a helpful community here.
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54 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:
I just wanted to say that even though we've just started it, W&R has been fantastic in helping my 9 year old to "find the main idea". The basic idea of the program is that when writing you can either expand/amplify an idea/story by adding more details, or you can summarize/shorten it by removing details. They have you actually cross out the words and sentences in a story that are not pertinent to the main action of the story, and that has been so very helpful in showing her what it means to find the main idea.
We have used Wordsmith Apprentice and Wordsmith also, with good success. My struggling writers did phenomenally well with IEW and I love it, but it hasn't been the best fit for my natural writers.
Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with those programs...very helpful! I was wondering too about a program like IEW, but the consensus seems to be that it can be stifling for natural writers. Maybe an option for my dd7 though, who I think will struggle with writing.
Is it the W&R *Fable* level that helps to find the main idea? 🤔
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8 hours ago, Lori D. said:
lol, well then here you go:
We used Wordsmith Apprentice (WA) and then Wordsmith.
WA was loads of fun, and I'm betting your DD would enjoy it. You can divide it up to do as big or as small of a "bite" per day or per week as fits your student and your schedule. I had 2 writing haters, and they both enjoyed WA. Both finished the program in less than a full school year -- and 1 DS also had mild LDs in spelling/writing, and had to take it at a slower pace. WA is very informal in tone and written to the student and can be done largely independently. WA has the fun "cub reporter" theme of having the student write in all the different departments of the newspaper, with each new department introduced in a silly 1-page comic of the Editor in Chief explaining and something silly happens.
Wordsmith does not have the comics and the amount of humor, but it, too can be scheduled how best fits the student, and it is easily finished in less than a year.
In re-reading your original post, I now realize you are looking for something to finish out this school year, and also are planning on doing writing over the summer... Based on the writing samples, she is already writing more volume than Wordsmith Apprentice, BUT WA could be done just for fun over the summer just to keep her hand in at writing in some way, possibly without feeling resentment that mom is making her "do school" over the summer. 😉For an accelerated review and practice for the end of this school year: I think Treasured Conversations will definitely give you the most bang for your buck -- grammar integrated into the writing; it takes you from complete sentences through paragraph structure; and note-taking/research and using your notes to write a short essay. So all of the guidance in how to tackle writing, and practice in the *thinking* required for writing. And, it would give YOU a good starting point for how to teach/guide writing without taking over her writing. 😉 I don't know as though any of the other writing programs mentioned in this thread, with the possible exception of WWE, would do that for *you*.
AND... along with TC, I would consider also doing Fix It as the practice of proof-editing and review of grammar concepts in a more engaging format that a traditional/formal Grammar program. If you felt you needed more in-depth grammar in 6th grade, then you could do one of the other grammar suggestions with the start of 6th grade...
So there's another 2 cents worth... for what it's worth... 😉 Warmest regards, Lori D.
Yes, I like all this! And Treasured Conversations was on my radar as an option. Glad to hear you think it's a good fit. Does it touch on summarizing? We are struggling with that now. It seems so obvious to me what the main points are in a paragraph or reading, and I don't know how to guide *her* to figure it out for herself. 😕
Thanks for the comments on Wordsworth Apprentice too. Sounds like a great option for summer. And I suspect my dd7 has a LD (really struggling with reading still...but slow, steady progress), so Wordsworth Apprentice might be a good option for her too in the future.
We watched the sample for Cover Story last night and dd10 LOVED it. She was hooked. All your suggestions will be helpful in shoring up her (and my!) skills so she can be successful with that program come Grade 6. Thank you again.
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What writing would you recommend for this Grade 5er? W&R, TC, Wordsworth, IEW...?
in K-8 Curriculum Board
Posted
Analysis paralysis, lol. Love it. That's so me too.
You could start with the Outlining workbook. It's deceivingly simple, but shored up the way my daughter structures her writing pretty quickly. And it's short, only a few weeks to do. Then, on the recommendation of the other forum members, I started her reading articles, National Geographic etc, and practicing outlining those. It was very effective. And buys you a bit of time to consider your other options.
Hmmm,I think I'll watch the sample lesson on IEW too. I watched one of his videos, but I don't think it was a sample lesson.