I rewatched "The Trouble with Angels" last night (I have a point, I promise!). There's a young nun who has volunteered to go to Africa and serve and teach in a leper colony. Throughout the movie, Hayley Mills' character has called this young nun "a flawless beauty." So, aghast that she would go to a leper colony, she says, "What if you catch it?" The nun says something very profound, and that is very rare in our society today. She says, "Then I will ask God for the grace to persevere." I don't believe we have any *rights* to avoid trials. Even horrible disease, financial disasters, sudden tornadoes or hurricanes that demolish your entire life...well, I really believe we just find the grace to persevere. Death is 100% certain. We all would like a nice long comfortable life to age 132 with umpteen great-great grandchildren and a peaceful passing in our sleep. But it's just not real. Real life is messy, ugly, and often ends horribly. It is not fair. It is not free. It is often brutal. All we can do is have the grace to persevere. And, in loving others as we love ourselves, always help others to find the grace to persevere as well.

Linda---this post has brought me joy all day long. Honest. This is exactly how I have to manage things with my younger (stubborn) dd. She has always risen to the occasion (so far), but she bounces a couple of times first. GRIN. I think "not believing they want margins that way" is one of the funniest things I've ever read. I can just see his face. It makes me wish I could draw cartoons, I see this so vividly. :)

I'm just happy that some schools have figured out how to take your money! Pitt Community College has empty seats in ALL sections of their Spanish 112 classes this semester, but won't take our money out of our hands to let our dd attend. An empty seat is better for their budget than a paying student? Ridiculous.

I know there are elite schools that begin with Calculus (although to have no lower level maths at all on their campus is silly, IMHO). And I don't doubt you, I'm not questioning this data AT ALL. But is that sentence (quoted) the most ludicrous thing you've ever read? COLLEGE algebra is not a *college* level math? Really? LOL! I'm not picking on YOU, Trillium. Honest. I wish you could hear my tone. I guess I am on my own here...I just don't believe students *MUST* have Calculus prior to college, nor do I think that Calculus must be the first college math for a successful career. Yes, even a successful career in the sciences and engineering. I have a young man in my home right now (my house is the hangout for all young adults--LOL) who is pursuing an engineering degree. He is 21 years old. He will be taking COLLEGE ALGEBRA this fall. You see, when he was a dual enrolled high schooler, he opted to take HVAC courses at the CC, and has been making a very nice living wage now for two years while going to school for the academic portion of his college transfer program. Sure, he's stringing things out...and growing up, owning his own home, and knowing his own mind all in the process. It's a pretty cool thing to watch. If I had a son, I'd be more than satisfied to watch him do just this thing. College students (like families) just aren't all that "traditional" any more. So many paths to the same place! Or, an equally good place, anyway. Of course, I will absolutely agree that ONE path is to take AP Calc BC at age 18, and head off to an elite school and go straight into Calc II or even Calc III. I had a kid in my grad school who was working on his PhD when he was 20, because he'd done just that--CLEP'd most of the Calculus sequence, DE and burned through theoretical maths. Good on him. (He also challenged many courses, and just took final exams. I often thought it would hurt to have a brain like that! LOL!) I'm probably never going to buy the argument that "the first college math is Calculus" for all majors and all students at all schools. But I will stop trying to convince anyone to do anything except check with the schools they plan to attend, and the degree programs they plan to pursue. Hey, I'm happy to think more students are going to do Calculus! I just wish they were doing it with numeracy and good math habits that they could develop if they'd spend a bit longer on algebra! GRIN.

It has turned into worst-case here. Pitt Community College is not allowing any humanities courses on campus. On line classes ARE available however, through Learn & Earn. Here's a new twist--in our orientation today, they are saying that since Learn & Earn is a PS program that has always been available for grades 9-12, and the language didn't *separate* dual enrolled/PS kids, now hsers and private schools will be eligible for online courses as early as ninth grade!!!!! This is a BIG deal, and I have never heard it before. Of course it's too late for us, but I'm glad to think that gifted hsers can access one or two online classes per semester as early as 9th grade for electives, etc. I hope that plays out to be true statewide. So, it looks like my dd is opting for two face-to-face graphic design courses to fill out her "on campus" schedule. It surprised me what "counts" for on-campus courses. Kids can still take computer courses, business courses (like business law, which my dd may take next semester), and graphic design. She's going to take Typography and Computer-Aided Design, both of which will be beneficial to her in life, even if she just ends up a PTA president someday. GRIN.

Both of them started at age 16. :) My older dd finished her AA in essentially four semesters (Spring/(Summer took one hour)/Fall 2006, Spring/Summer 2007). We are on a calendar year for our school year, so my dd did this for her junior/senior year, but finished her senior year abruptly and graduated about 10 months before I'd originally planned. LOL. Fortunately, my younger one isn't going to go so fast.

In my classroom, we use binders for storage, and notebooks for class notes. Anything we want to "keep together" and reference on the fly goes in the notebook. We just date each page. But homework (things that leave their hands and remain with me overnight for grading) have to be on looseleaf paper, so we have binders to file the graded, returned work chronologically. In our homeschool, my dd uses looseleaf paper for everything, and keeps 30 pages or so on a clipboard with her books. She files her work into binders (actually, she starts with one binder, and dividers, and only expands to a binder for a subject when it starts filling up), and doesn't file *everything*. She's pretty good about recognizing what was "scratch" work, and what was a final, finished product. Notes for a paper are trashed after the final paper is completed, for example. If outlines are all she produces on a topic (no need for further refinement) then she will file the outline. My older dd uses one binder for her courses on campus (she's at the university). She has one style that she prefers, buys herself a new one each semester, and then files it into a filing cabinet at the end of the semester. She has built a fine body of work over her career. :) HTH!

I don't think the "average" American family is anything like a one-income, married couple with children, honestly. :) One-income, married couple with school-aged children are a type of family in America, but aren't the "average." Here's the trick for me...we focus on our blessings, treasure the ways we are special, but don't think of ourselves "as" special, or requiring special treatment. Self-worth, but not self-centered, is always our goal for our family. I am grateful to live in a land of opportunity. Even during hard economic times, we are one of the richest countries on earth. I thank God for our air-conditioning and running water, library books and available fresh produce. We just eat less expensive foods right now, and try to be better stewards of our resources. Push up the air temp, watch out for water usage, and use the library more than Barnes & Noble. :) Find some way to serve. We feed the homeless at the community shelter every other month, and it really brings home to us that we are definitely *not* average. We are blessed.

I've graduated one, and have a red-shirt senior (LOL) who I may never graduate. Actually, we do 14 grades here, so she's on grade 13ish. She's 16, and we'll graduate her around age 18 or 19, whenever we decide she's done. :) Anyway--it's the best thing we ever did. My daughters love us, and love each other. They are kind and smart and good. They care about the community, the poor, and the planet. They love the Lord, and live a life to please Him first. They love to learn, and study for the joy of it. We are a better family and better people because of homeschooling. It was the greatest gift we ever gave ourselves.

Apparently Edgecombe CC offers Spanish online, and uses the same Vistas curriculum in use statewide. You can try that, if you think she has the self-discipline. I may choose to sign my dd up in their Spanish 112...we have the same situation here. Spanish classes are half-full. And we don't have any "online" Spanish in our local department.

My older dd took advantage of our formerly awesome (LOL) community college program of dual enrollment here in North Carolina. She took 66 hours in high school, and graduated from high school with an Associate's Degree. She took 13 hours first semester (4 courses). She had already completed *all* her high school requirements if she were a PS kid at age 16. But we had additional coursework (on top of this fulltime college load) that she did at home every semester as well. I'll just list the CC work. So, she took English 111, Spanish 111, Chemistry and College Algebra first semester in the Spring of 2006. She took only 1 hour over the summer (College Student Success--a lame study skills course required for the AA). The rest of her CC experience looked like: Fall 2006: English 113, Spanish 112, Physics, PreCalculus (16 hours) Spring 2007: American Literature I & II, Public Speaking, Health, Calculus I, Spanish 211 (18 hours) Summer 2007: Statistics, Spanish 161 (Immersion in Mexico), Music Appreciation, Psychology, Sociology, Ethics (18 hours) That's pretty close. :) My younger dd took 15 hours her first semester. She took English 111, Spanish 111, Health, Art Appreciation and Digital Photography (her passion). Now she will have 7 hours this semester, starting on Tuesday, with Statistics and Physics (plus lab). Maybe we'll get a positive decision from the CC before then...and she can continue her English and Spanish sequences. My dds both LOVED the CC. They established good relationships with their instructors, and earned nice side money tutoring. My older dd was named an "Academic Excellence" award winner in the Spring of 2007; she was nominated by her Spanish professor. She was also in Phi Theta Kappa. I don't think my younger dd will have that opportunity now. Sigh. (As she would say to me, "Bitter much, Mom?" LOL!) Anyway, I think the CC can be an awesome addition to a homeschooler's transition to university life. We chose to add the CC courses for the rigor and routine and classroom experience. Besides, we started using college textbooks in 7th grade in our home, so there is only so long you can make kids do *the same* level of work they are going to do in their AA/BA program. Dual enrollment is "dual" so that they can get credit for the work when they do it, instead of doing it twice (or three times!). Lori

Have you ever seen this book: Good Questions for Math Teaching: Why Ask Them and What to Ask (Grades 5-8) by Lainie Schuster and Nancy Canavan Anderson. (There is also a K-6 version, but I'm not sure about the high school years.) It is essentially a collection of math problems to supplement any curriculum, but designed to be "good" questions. A "good" question: -help students make sense of mathematics -are open-ended (multiple answers/multiple approaches) -help unravel misconceptions -make connections and generalizations -lead students to wonder more about a topic Anyway, I use these questions as "class openers." It works really well to generate discussion.

Did you see this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_burquini_banned I am so fair I cannot swim for more than 20 minutes or so. I'd love to wear an ankle to top-of-my-head suit! I do think it's sad to be discriminated against because of clothing choices.

I would love to see that article. Do you think it's available online? If you can find a pdf, send it along! lwmillsap at gmail! Thanks so much!

No, conceptual Calculus is something I made up. LOL. As I worked through Pre-Calculus (I wrote my own material to transition from MUS Trigonometry to a "Calc for Life Science" majors--Calc Lite) to Calculus ideas with my daughters, I simply drew them along to the ideas of calculus, conceptually. And yes, before they could generate their own solutions to hard problems, I put hard problems before them, and had them copy or follow along and explain back solutions for me. So, we approached math classically. Now, I don't mean we burned through Euclid or some of the other "classical" texts, but that I used copywork, recitation, memorization, chants, songs, and other classical methodologies in math. She read math history/biographies, listened to math stories, and put the topics we studied into historical context. Why did Newton *need* that math when he needed it? And what would we have done if he hadn't figured it out!? LOL. (Then we went to Cambridge, and saw Newton's apple tree...it was a very good year for math and history.) My dd hated math too. And she thought she wasn't very good at it. Sometimes she wasn't...but then when she took College Algebra and PreCalculus and Calc I and Statistics at the CC...she felt better. Because what she had developed over the years of reading, thinking and learning at our house was the ability to listen respectfully, take copious notes, do all her homework faithfully, ask meaningful questions, and make her brain think. That's all anyone really needs to succeed in any college class, in my experience. I think she majored in math because she trusted it to be true, KWIM? It was very self-reliant...do good work, do it well, get rewarded. As opposed to "write a paper, have some limited thinker trash it, get no credit." LOL. OTOH, she's learning that proofs are just math-writing. :) But a still a little more "true" than essays. No, I think you know what College Algebra is...it is a one-semester course that covers linear equations, systems of linear equations, quadratic equations and their applications, simple trig, traditional applied algebra problems like rates and work and exponential growth applications like interest and biological growth/decay, and sometimes includes matrix algebra fundamentals. Pre-Calculus usually takes off from there, with trig functions, polynomials, some modeling, and goes all the way to the idea of the limit, and occasionally into differential calculus. Anyway, just because a student does a year-long course of PreCalculus as a senior in high school doesn't necessarily mean it's in her best interest to move straight into Calc I. Some can, some would benefit from much more solid understanding in algebra.

No.

By the way, I'm sorry I hijacked your thread. :) And I agree with Holly, you can make a "gut" decision based on the info you receive, and you might really trust the person who gives you the info, but it won't be valid. In my experience, the students I've tutored who weren't prepared for college math were not prepared for a variety of reasons. Usually, it was just that they didn't *work* the curriculum that they had, not that the material itself was inadequate. (And they didn't work it for a variety of reasons, too...jobs, teen stress, family issues, no tutoring available regularly, etc.) Lori

I think we are talking apples and oranges here. Obviously, none of us (here) at WTM are here because we want a mediocre education for our children, at any age. GRIN. And, as I proudly state early and often, I have a 20yo graduating with a BA in mathematics in December, who is still maintaining a 4.0 GPA. She came home at age 12, so I don't think I "held her back" in mathematics (LOL) during the high school years. And now she's talking a PhD in mathematics, so you can imagine my pride. This, from a very talented cartoonist/illustrator, who has a really hard time leaving her colored pencils behind (and probably won't, ever). In fact, most of her success is specifically due to those "math converstations" you are discussing in another thread. Her entry into Calculus was very gentle, since we did "conceptual Calculus" from a very early age, and actually spent a full year in a real "conceptual Calculus" where she primarily mimicked and copied Calculus solutions and proofs. Occasionally she'd generate her own solution, but it was rare. :) She was 15. So, you can say we did math very classically, with copywork and discussion. My "rant" is not directed at you guys--you know how much I love you! :) My rant is directed at the pervasive theme that students who did not get that far in math in high school need to "settle" for something else in college. That Calculus is the defining math pivot-point. I just want to continue to give hope to those home school parents who have kids who finish Pre-Calculus at home. They can certainly take College Algebra for most majors in college. And pursue a liberal arts education...or even later decide to be engineers. I absolutely agree with future trends...which is why a kid who gets turned on by a field that requires modeling or other advanced math can rely on those courses to be available at the college level. You are right...I don't take into account lengthening the undergraduate process. I'm a heretic. I actually think lengthening the process is *good* for students. More of them should work (even if it meant taking a semester off), take internships, and be much older than 22 when they move out into the world. I have a kid graduating at 20. Frankly, I wish she were staying home, and studying for a MS for three more years before she marries and gets going...but it didn't work out that way. :) And I have a big philosophical difference than most as well...elite colleges are a fine choice for some, but not necessary for a good, productive life and career. Anyway...solid foundations abound! But it's not a limit. It's a goal, with some limitations implied, like any other goal.

My experience is ENTIRELY different, and this attitude is going to always keep quality students from pursuing further study of mathematics. Goodness. I cannot IMAGINE telling an 18yo that they cannot successfully become an engineer in ANY program at ANY school (and NCSU is not the be-all, end-all of high quality engineering programs, though it is certainly a good one) if they haven't already completed Calc AB prior to admission! Students come in all shapes and backgrounds--many public schools simply don't offer AP Calculus, even in 2009. Not to mention how many students don't go directly to university as an 18 year old. This head-in-the-sand traditionalism is an artificial ceiling for students. Barring true intelligence limitations, any student, any where, with any wiring, can learn and study mathematics--and yes, at the Calculus level and beyond. But many very young students (15, 16 or 17 years old) get directed to intermediate maths (perhaps applied maths, or discrete maths) and don't get pushed to Calculus so early. These same students may make life decisions that have them working for 3-5 years before going to college. As engineers. LOL. I cannot help but think about the thousands of military service men and women who do that very thing...and then end up as Department Chairs of Engineering schools later in life after a nice military career. It is absolutely reasonable for someone to start at College Algebra (the first college math), and follow along in the Calculus sequence. It is not "remedial" to do so. There are hundreds of majors for which College Algebra is the *only* college math required. And probably millions of people who claim they don't even use that in their daily lives...LOL. Still, your caution is perfect--everyone should prepare for whatever path they believe is the one they want, at whatever school they hope to attend. I just always want to say LOUDLY and with vigor (LOL) that just because a student doesn't take Calc AB in high school doesn't preclude them from being the president of an engineering firm later in life. :)

DD is going to work through a study of Shakespeare at home this fall (in lieu of CC English coursework). She is already a Shakespeare fan, and has memorized many passages from comedies and tragedies. She's familiar with most of the plots, and has even spent some time on poetry. So, I guess I'm looking for a "college level" Shakespeare syllabus, to really push her to study deeper and broader. I have Harold Bloom's book. Are there others we need to invest in? Any English majors wanna help me out here? GRIN.

We keep *giving* information to our local CC through the generosity of this board! I know I sound frustrated on here, but unfortunately, really great people who work at the CC have been caught completely unaware by this decision, just like us. It never occurred to us as parents that PCC would *not* take our money! LOL! We just assumed we'd have to pay for the classes she'd want to take from now on. Like you, online CC classes don't suit homeschoolers' purpose most of the time. (Yes, my older dd ended up taking several of her courses online. But only after establishing relationships with the online professor by faithfully attending class for a semester in lower level courses.) Honestly, if the point was just to "take a class" there are lots of high quality high school courses available out there through Potter's School or others. Of course, now it's too late this semester to enroll in any of those... :glare:

College Algebra is the first college math. Most degree programs require college algebra, and perhaps an applied math (like statistics). Calculus is NOT the first college math. Calculus I is not the litmus test for college readiness. Now, I do believe that well-educated people complete the calculus sequence. But I do not think you have to be calculus-ready at age 18, or else you are in "remedial" math. The rush to calculus is going to ruin the math brain of this nation. Sigh.

Pitt Community College still hasn't made an official decision (other than by making no decision, time is running out). DH spent 20 minutes on the phone with Dr. Pamela Hilbert, Vice President of Academic Affairs (and she used to be my boss's boss's boss in the chain of command when I worked at PCC). Anyway, Dr. Hilbert spent most of the conversation explaining to DH the wonders of online classes (sigh), and said that while enrollment at PCC is up 15% this semester, budget is down 15%. She and her staff are still considering a self-sustaining rate to be the equivalent of out of state tuition ($241.30 per credit hour!). Needless to say, DH made it pretty clear that we don't consider that fair or appropriate as taxpayers who live 6 miles from the CC. :) Even at that ridiculous rate, at this point, there is no plan to allow high schoolers on campus for courses other than math/science/tech. Frankly, there just aren't any open sections. PCC is 58/58 in the NCCCS for available classroom space. I'm afraid we are going to be lucky to use our local CC for math and science for this year. I think I'm going to be a humanities teacher again. GRIN.

Yes, thanks. We all have this info...it's the public newspress release. It is global. I'm looking for specifics on specific CCs and their policies. For example, Pitt Community College in Greenville is NOT allowing high schoolers to pay tuition. The only accessible courses are math/science/tech, and Learn & Earn Online. I'm looking for the CCs that *are* allowing students on campus to pay tuition.

:lurk5: Any other CC information out there?