And with this, I'll bow out. I'm not doing a good job explaining myself or my journey or anything related to deconstruction or deconversion, and all it's doing is causing other people pain. Peace to all. Peace and comfort to Joshua, Shannon, and their children, extra especially to the children.

It seems from his statements, that it might actually be the converse...the way he treated others caused regret, the regret caused questioning, and the questioning lead him down this road.

Arctic, for the world I never meant to hurt you!!! I am so sorry. You are a really wonderful person. All I can say is that from my perspective, I don't really think that progressive "christians" define christianity all that much really. I think maybe its a perception, but the UMC is dying in the US as are most of the mainlines that might have a more centrist or progressive approach. The largest protestant denomination is the Southern Baptist Convention, and it seems to be doing just fine. I think some of the pain right now for many good hearted traditional christians is that there have been a lot of "fallen angels" recently at a time in history where the bad news folks always have the mic, the craziest ones always have the mic. Somehow they always get to be the "voice". But those folks aren't the biggest reason I am where I am. And You and Mercy or any IRL other truly lovely christian people like you are not the reason i am where I am. Please do not take the weight of that on your shoulders. If anything, people like you were the strongest reason that I had to stay in the faith. The reality is that the christians who have hurt me so deeply aren't the ultimate reason. Did they have an influence in my choice to really dig down, dig deep, ask the tough questions? Yes. But, ultimately, they don't hold any responsibility here. I'm a big girl. It's all on me, and I wouldn't be comfortable just playing the blame game. That said, I do think that maybe it could be constructive for believers to hear our stories. Of course there are people who suffered some pretty bad abuse, and their journeys are different from mine, and I think they have a lot more to say to the churches they've left. A lot more. Especially if their abuse was swept under the rug, and abusers got a way with it. Given what happened at SGM, I think that this kind of scenario has a lot more to do with Joshua Harris's faith re-evaluation than mine. I alone take responsibility for the fact that I can no longer accept the answers that christianity provides for the discrepancies I find in the bible, in the art or interpretation, in practice, etc. Totally my gig. It's not on anyone else. I also won't say that the bible being used as a weapon so often did not have an effect. That would be disingenuous. But that's on the people who did it, not on worldwide christianity. Please know that I really respect you. I really have no desire to be hurtful to you.

Lori, thank you so much. And yes, you were super helpful. As I said, I'm fleshing it out, and we are in the preliminary planning stage. Your list was super duper wonderful because it does reveal the necessity of really prioritizing so the trip isn't overwhelming. That's a great thing! And I'd forgotten about how hot and humid it might be. The thing is, I can walk, and I can walk a lot. I've taken my rocket team all over DC sightseeing. It's that by the end of the day, I'm in a lot of pain. The swelling gets really bad. I'm going back into physical therapy and doing some training for the trip and hope that will help. But I think that if we want to have this really enjoyable, wonderful trip, I need to be reasonable about how much of each day is spent walking. I like the idea of renting bikes. That never occurred to me. I could see more area if we took a couple of bike trips, 3 -4 miles each. My back lasts about that long without beginning to bark at me. We were going to do a lot of picnic food because fast food gets old. Since our food budget is very reasonable, we might be able to add bike rental. If the physical therapy goes well, I'd consider a horseback ride too. I miss horses.

Arctic, think you should say what you want to say. You have a good, and gracious heart. I think it's fine for you to contribute, and speaking for myself, I'm not interested in anyone being shut out. When something rocks a faith community like major leader in the faith making a radical change in belief system, it's a shocker for many and need to flesh out their feelings on the subject.

Also, we have no intention of spending 3-4 days exploring around San Francisco. It's not on our bucket list at all. Just heading over that way, and going over the Golden Gate Bridge. We used to live in Northern Oregon. We wanted to do the coast drive, but we aren't really exploring in the area because as far as Astoria, Portland, and Pendleton go, we've done it all before. We also won't be stopping on the way home for Yellowstone, Mt. Rushmore, or Badlands. We took that western trip with our sons a few years ago, and totally explored the area. Loved it. Since we have a budget to keep to, we won't be doing those stops. Due to our interest in rocketry and the years of mentoring high school rocket teams, we really want to spend the two days at Spaceport. We'll spend a day and night at Grand Canyon. Santa Barbara is just a drive by his old neighborhood. If it ends up being too much, we'll not even go the full northern route. I am bummed about not being able to take the bikes. But it is what it is.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the input. It's all very helpful.

Thanks. Going to go look up Tusayan.

I know! Right! Just not the same world. I felt like I wasn't really on the same planet with her, LOL. It went something like this. Put it on, loved it, absolutely loved it. Best friend oohed and aahed. It was "the one". It fit really well and only needed a minor alteration. Great price. Get it. Then narcissistic, always down on her kid always mother came to town, and poohed the dress. She didn't think it was "all that." Then niece freaked out. Calmer, saner minds tried to reason with her because take out a loan to buy another ungodly priced dress just didn't seem practical or smart, but alas. So another designer dress was purchased. And frankly, she looked a million times better in the first one. DD 's response was, "Sheesh mom, I'm actually quite glad you and dad and I don't have that kind of money. It kind of simplifies my life choices a good bit."

Katie, I think it was because she had had it for a couple of months. It was an end of season sale. Vera Wangs start at $7500 and go upwards of $25,000 so I'm pretty certain she got it on sale, and then had in her possession for a while.

It's a lot of driving, but we have only very specific spots we really want to stop at, and the rest we can be very flexible about. We've always been long distance drive kind of people. I do the 12 hours to DD's in one day, butts in seats at 5 am, and don't feel tired when I arrive. So three hours in the middle go explore something is fine. But in terms of LONG explorations that involve a lot of walking, those won't be happening. My ankle is in very bad shape. I can actually bike better than walking, and we won't be allowed to put a bike rack on the company car so taking the bikes are out. We will actually be gone more than 17 days, that's just the max for consecutive vacation days dh can take. We have Saturdays and Sundays to add to the beginning, middle, and end so more like 23 days, and wait. 24. 4th of July will be in there before we return and he gets the business day before as a paid holiday no need to use a vacation day.

Thanks! Antelope Island. Check. 😃

So much this.

Agreed. And everyone was always up into everyone's business so they could hen peck the ones they decided were unrepentent. But even now as abhorrent as I think that is, I can't say they are wrong from a biblical perspective. 2 Thessalonians 3:14 - If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. Galatians 6:1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. I will say that I think the gentleness thing gets overlooked a good bit. As far as "any trespass", that's a pretty open, broad statement which makes it really easy to pick on people. Somebody gets to decide what a trespass is and isn't. Those that decide have all the power. It isn't as if there is zero basis for this practice. It's pretty plain. If the leadership decides that thing X is a sin, then they are exhorted to go 'root it out", and none of the above sounds particularly pleasant. So I am no longer angry with the person who told me after my father's failed murder/suicide attempt to "Get right with God before something worse happens to your family" for their viewpoint. The church actively taught that people were punished and often the innocent suffered due to the sin of others. They weren't going to blame him. That was outside the pale of what they could imagine because he'd been an elder there for 30 years. It had to be someone else's fault that he went berzerk. So it landed on me since I was the "liberal" of the two offspring that they had access to go after - it wasn't my church, but we live two blocks away so an easy target. It totally makes sense to me if one believes this scripture is the word of god. Oh, there will be people who will come along and say, "Well that's not what it really means", then put a spin on it. However, whose to say their spin is any more accurate than the next person's? There are several ways to interpret all of it. No one can say for sure their way is the one and only way. The Westboro Baptists think they are right. That hardly bears thinking about! It is what it is. I get that I have to be relegated to the rubbish pile of life in their eyes. In their rule book, someone has to be blamed for such an awful thing occurring to one of "their own", and they have a responsibility to figure out who that is and disassociate from the offender. In their version of christianity, their very souls are at stake for not doing it. Their kids souls....can't have such a bad influence around. I also have come to see that there is no basis per scripture to say they are wrong either. If there is truth within the bible, it is avarice - with christians themselves entirely unable to come to any kind of reasonable consensus about what that is - to pick one and say, "yup, that's the right one." I get that there is this nifty thing called the Apostle's Creed. I used to think it was pretty darn awesome and kind of congealed the necessary stuff. However, two years of diligently trying to make that work within the context of faith based community, lead me to believe that it doesn't really do the job. Too many holes. Too many threads that unravel at least for me. Kudos to all of those for whom it is enough because seriously, you are better off not having to go through what I've been through, or Quill, or Joshua Harris, Bart Erhman, Rob Bell, and many, many others. I give props to Peter Enns. I've read a lot of his stuff. Some times he almost convinces me I could maybe, just maybe be a believer again. But I can't. I think it would utterly destroy me to even try. I really hope that some how, some way, it won't be so bad for Joshua, Shannon, and their children. I suspect though that since their exit began from the SGM, it's been pretty damn awful!

Thanks, I think that I might actually be adventurous enough to try this one tonight! Lots of hugs to you. You and Mercy and so many others are being really awesome about this. It is refreshing even if it is just online discussion.

I am really glad for you. So many families never get to this place. Being alone, not having friends, is not as hard as it used to be. I have dh and my kids, and that is turning out to be enough. I think it might be easier when we leave this area. There isn't much diversity, and the population is too small, so everyone is up into everyone else's business. No privacy. Ugh. At this point, I am learning to embrace the solitude. The hardest work is for my kids and I to not slip up around the two elderly mothers/grandmothers. They aren't particularly emotionally and mentally stable at this time. They'd probably have heart attacks or strokes, and I mean that literally, if they got wind of what we really think and believe. So the cloak remains. I'm pretty certain when they pass away, and I'm truly free, it's going to be an amazing burden lifted.

Same here. I get it. Even within the the midst of the very progressive, everyone at the table, feed people, love people, church with few doctrinal demands on those not ordained or in spiritual leadership positions, I still wear my disguise. It's easier to do that, than to deal with everyone else's reactions.

Are these pretty much full service cabins such as bedding provided, electricity, plumbing, etc.? Dh and I love the "cabin in the woods" idea, but we are traveling light, and won't be bringing a bunch of roughing it kind of stuff with us. We would need something more robust than a camping cabin.

Agreed. Once the jenga pieces started being pulled from the tower, I found myself unable to embrace the cognitive dissonance it took to overlook some of these things. It is not surprising to me that when this happens to people, they end up landing in various places along the belief map. I'm sure deconstruction doesn't inevitably lead to deconversion, but I am sure there is a fairly good percentage of folks for whom it does.

Dh is being promoted so he's supposed to get a company car. Hopefully that means a lot of bells and whistles we would otherwise not afford. But, i don't know. He has to take whatever they choose. In terms of lower lumbar support, boy the car industry is just kind of all over the map. It seems very hit and miss in terms of quality.

Flagstaff. On my list to research. Thanks!

Ya, and fit plus budget isn't always easy. For dd, being a size two, almost a zero but also being about 3" taller than most girls in that size range, fit and budget was a bit dicey. I never asked niece what she did with that Vera Wang. She was so stunning in it that is was shocking she chose not to wear it. I hope she sold it to someone who ended up adoring it. I'd hate to think it ended up in some fabric, recycling pile.

Right. At the time, she was not making a huge amount. Her fiance was, but apparently she didn't want to ask him. Her dad was loaded, like seriously, 30,000 was a drop in the bucket to him. I think he'd have paid for the second dress if she would have asked. But her parents are divorced, and its not amicable, so I think she wanted to avoid more drama. The thing was, the other dress was $8000...I mean, just wear it. Good grief. What a prima dona thing! It was absolutely gorgeous, but she decided it wasn't her "look". So far outside the realm of my "normal" for sure.

I'm on vacation from work right now so I've happily been able to find time to come check in here at the Hive. Hi everyone!! So, dh and I, having been through an awful lot these past few years, have decided to do a great American road trip together, just the two of us. We'l be going next summer, and so he can put his vacation request in at work early before everyone else gets theirs in, he's asked me to get some preliminary plans in place. I'm using the myscenicdrives app for this. Originally I thought maybe we would want to stay in Grand Canyon Village or very close, but oh my word, the prices I see online are pretty awful. Now I am wondering about staying south of it, Williams Arizona area. We'll be coming across the southern route from Michigan so will be on I - 40. Expedia and other sites list several chain hotels, and any number of them seem fine. However, I was wondering if anyone had a recommendation for a privately owned one, somewhere that might be extra special to stay. No matter what, it will need a pool, a good pool. We intend on swimming a lot to help overcome the aches, especially mine since the car accident, of riding for so may hours at a time. Good beds would be another plus. We've done okay at some Holiday Inns with their beds, but many others like Days Inn have been pretty awful. That's the hard thing because so many hotels have terrible mattresses. Our favorites are Westin - good grief they invest in lovely beds - but not only are those only available in very major city centers, we can't afford to do that every night of the trip. Our whole trip is Michigan to Arizona with a stop in New Mexico at Spaceport America (hoping to time it so we can see the ERSA/IREC launch competition), Grand Canyon, Santa Barbara CA (dh grew up there, and I've never been to Cali), jaunt up to Solvang due to dh's Danish roots, Sequoia National Park, then swing over to San Francisco, up the coast on US 1, stop in Tillamook (old stomping grounds for us when we lived in western Oregon many moons ago), then Astoria, take the northern route through Oregon into Idaho, drop down to Salt Lake City and see the Great Salt Lake, over to Colordado Springs to visit his aunt, then back home. All in 17 days in June of next year. I'm pretty excited. Anyway, if you know of good places to stay around Truth or Consequences, NM, Williams AZ or somewhere fairly close to Grand Canyon National Park, Solvang and Sequoia, southern Oregon along US 1, and Great Salt Lake (we have friends to stay with in Astoria and Pendleton, family in the the Springs), please post here.

Thank you, I will consider listening. It may take me a while to be brave enough to do it. Having never experienced any respectful discussion on the topic besides, surprisingly, this one, it's hard to open myself up to it. The attacks from the IRL christians whom I once called friends or from family whom we have been forced to sever ties with, have been excruciating. It is always amazing to me the sheer triumphant joy some people have when proclaiming I'm going to burn in hell, tortured for forever. I have come to the realization that they live in such fear for their own lives due to their beliefs, that they simply don't have room to care how much they hurt others. I'm in a good place now, and though will have to take meds for the rest of my life because the fight or flight response will never really go away, I'm on much lower amounts, and go whole weeks without ever having to take the "as needed" anxiety med. It was a HUGE step to be willing to open up to the very progressive, "feed people, love people, everyone welcome at the table" United Methodist Church we attend and agree to take on the music director role, so I tend to be pretty skittish. Thankfully, my role is purely professional, and though I would not call myself a christian any longer, I have never stopped loving sacred music.