Update. We talked. The decision is still hers. She WAS attempting to talk between the lines about the major thing too. She said she was wondering how to approach that topic with me these days. We agreed to talk it through tomorrow, I understand her mixed feelings on some things. Overall relieved. Thanks to everybody.

Yes, it did, reading it now; I made sufficient place, no worries about clogging inbox. :)

There is a character limit to PMs, you will probably find yourself separating it anyway. I am going to clean my PM box for you, too. :) Feel free to share as much as you wish - and meanwhile I will get emotionally ready, LOL. Thank you so much! I will really appreciate your insights.

My parents were also VERY hands off when I was that age, but I was a really good child in spite of it (or because of it? I am never quite sure). I never got into any majorly inappropriate situations, actually - so I suppose a part of the reason why I tend to be more lax is because I remember how appreciated I felt with the freedom I was given, yet I stayed a good child. I am more strict than my parents in some aspects, but I was trying to gradually increase some of my girls' freedoms of choice... which may or may not be a good thing. I constantly wrestle with these issues. :( I would like to have a cookie and eat it. On one hand I have the urge to keep them safe and "good" at all costs, on the other hand, I really do not want them to live in a golden cage and I feel like this is the time to learn independence and responsibility for their choices. So I am trying to hit some balance, and I never quite feel comfortable with it. I totally get what you mean by omission though. I know a LOT of people who seem to willingly close their eyes to what their kids are doing. They are not even clueless, they just seem like they do not really want to know the specifics.

Yes, I am happy that we are quite close - and that she felt secure enough in our relationsip to say something like that in the first place. :) You are right, I should probably directly start off that way. Thanks for your support.

How do I talk to her later today?! I feel lost. "Honey, I was worried about something you said yesterday and I did not know how to interpret it."? Or... DO I talk to her at all? :confused: What if I am blowing this out of proportions and what if I should just ignore it? But I am still not at ease with it. Something is odd. Sigh.

I am not so interested in PISA or other international assessments (they are too general), I am more interested in (i) the specifics of the *program* that you find academically deficient (I have my views on that too....), regardless of how concrete children are or are not mastering that program and how it is implemented in practice, and (ii) your personal experince with your child as regards practice. I would really, really appreciate those because I quite rarely have an opportunity to hear such insights from somebody who is both fully "in" the system, but also has the option of seeing it with "foreign" eyes and experience - and you seem to have researched it a lot too. So, if you could somehow share it with me without your blood pressure escalating... I would be really thankful. :) (ETA: Ah yes, I mean Italy-specific... the more personal the better - albeit anecdotal - because you seem to be a LOT around these things if you also teach and work on teacher training.)

I have always been sort of philosophically opposed to coinciding literature with history in the elementary and even most of middle cycle. I think that is the stage for synchrony - reading many diverse things which are not organized by a chronological principle - while high school was the ideal diachrony stage (the chronological approach in literature, art history, philosophy, loosely coordinated with history). Never did biographies, and never did premeditated historical fiction around history either (if my children read those, it was accidental / free reading).

Never been to one. I am too lazy to go, honestly. It has always seemed like an unnecessary hassle to me.

:svengo: I need air. :D But seriously, would you be interesting in PMing me with where did you find academic deficiencies so far? I am interested in whether we have the same perception.

I am mentally preparing for the conversation. I am totally clueless as to how to begin to talk to her and what attitude to take. Thanks to everyone who thought about this with me.

I am in this camp too. However, for some of us, it is not even a theoretical option. A naked kid outside in your own yard in a suburban or rural culture is a wildly different thing than a naked kid outside right in the midde of a busy street, LOL.

For the record, I am in the "school should start at 6 for most children, even at 7 for some, and only exceptional 5 year olds should be in the mix" camp too. It is not that level of "delaying" that I have problems with, I see that as normal, being European. But that is pretty much where my personal tolerance line is. The unrealistic relativizations of the learning process and pretending problems do not exist if a child does not read at... double digits :001_huh:... seem to me like educational neglect, not a philosophy of intentionally delaying things a little. I do think the Anglo-American culture of early start is a bit insane. You guys seem to be very hard, in terms of your expectations, on the littles (academic pre-K and K and alike, with a lot of seatwork and forcing certain skills which would have come a lot more naturally to children if you only gave them a year or two more to play and mature), but then somewhere about upper elementary you start erring on the lax side. From middle school onwards, there is little place for comparison, because by that point the educations our children receive are so fundamentally different (and, if you ask me, in Europe it is typically academically superior). And ironically, kids still spend often less TIME in school. So, that kind of "delayed" approach is a very different boat in my eyes than the tone of the article.

LOL true. ;) Anyhow, I will bring up that conversation tomorrow. Maybe there are things to hash out, maybe not, but since I cannot let go of it so easily, I will take it that we need to talk... and maybe rethink the whole thing together. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts - I am sorry not to quote every single response, but I appreciate all of your insights... and hugs. Teens are hard. Sigh.

This is sort of how I first took it. Not as a cry for help, but like this, plus my slight annoyance. But maybe I was wrong? This girl often has a mind difficult to read, even for a mother.

Without going into specifics, we had that particular conversation about something which could be described as a "minor issue" in the grand scheme of things. Something we would normally veto, but at her insisting, DH and I finally arrivated at the "oh well, let her have at it" conclusion. But. In the background, there is also this "major issue" going on these weeks. And if she was trying to talk about that in an indirect fashion... probably I am just being paranoid, though. But we are all scattered... if she openly told me she was changing her mind, I would have no idea how "seriously" to take it and whether it was a normal reluctance or something bigger. Now I am beginning to overthink this all.

This is what crossed my mind first, actually. I did ask her whether she was basically asking of me to forbid her that choice, but she denied that she was "hinting" at anything... and it all confuses me now.

She is 14. We are all rather candid about things here, in a sort of matter of fact way, so I have no idea why I was taken aback a little. We have also discussed quite frankly things of the kind your son has discussed with you. It would in fact be expectable of her to be frank. But why I am surprised then, why do I still feel something was slightly off about her comments? :confused: Maybe it is me, not her? No idea.

Glad to see I am not alone! :lol: :grouphug: Yes, it makes sense, and I tend to be on the more liberal / lax side about many things - it just feels so awkward to have a child acknowledge it in this way. (Did you really turn into the kind of parent you as a child believed you would be, BTW?)

I am still trying to wrap my mind about a conversation earlier today. My daughter is planning to make a choice I am not entirely cool with, but she has the permission nonetheless because I think it must be her decision. She understands my position, and she thinks that from my perspective as a mother, that position makes perfect sense. Then the weird part comes, more or less like this (paraphrasing): Her: If I were in your shoes, I would probably not allow it. Me: And you see no contradiction in doing it yourself then? Her: No, it is something I want to do, and given your permission, I will do it. But I still do not think you should allow it, as a mother. Me: I am not making the choice, I am handing it over to you. Her: Yes, but maybe you should not. Me: :confused: Is this a roundabout way of saying you wish me to put my foot down and not allow you to make that choice? Because I think you are too old for mind games like that. Her: No, not at all. I am very pleased with the fact you will let me decide. I just think you should not let me decide. Sort of, I disagree with your parenting approach here, but I still intend on profitting from it as your child. Me: You know what are your parents' wishes. You are free to determine on your own, in this case, how much weight you are going to give to them. Her: Yes. But I sort of think this is one of those cases in which you, the parents, should decide, even if that would dissatisfy me... not just show me all the options, say "choose", and wash your hands off it. Do not get me wrong. I absolutely do not want you to decide instead of me. But I think that would be the sensible thing to do, from your perspectve. Me: That is what you think you would do? Her: Not exactly, because I do not hold the same opinion as you do here. But I would impose my preference in this case, whatever it is, rather than handing over the choice. Then I said something general such as that I prefer her to own her choices as much as possible, or something along those lines, and the conversation dissolved. But something still bugs me. I have no idea how to digest this. We were both calm and we do tend to be a LOT more straightforward than in many families. Still, something about that conversation was so awkward. Is it normal that your (younger) teens voice such opinions on your parenting choices, even if in the spirit of musing theoretically? Is it disrespectful? I did not interpret it that way, but now rethinking it, I am really not sure it is her place to make such comments. Sort of like crossing some invisible line of my authority, KWIM? Mind you, I am not big on "authority" with my children, we have a more transparent relationship, but I still felt something was a tad bit inappropriate here. Then maybe some of those comments were TOO honest, even for me (!). At one point she basically told me "I think you are wrong as a parent, but I am happy to be in a position to profit from it". She used the formulation "to profit from", literally, and there was no indication it was a tongue in cheek expression. Are these things something I should talk to her about? Or should I just ignore it as those awkward moments with teenagers and let it slide?

I am in an evil mood. :lol: Philosophies like this desire to romanticize things. Unfortunately, extremely late readers (here we are talking absurd ages) ARE much more likely to have some kind of a cognitive deficit than early readers. Retardation in academics DOES mean, on the literal level, picking things later, with a certain tardiness, when they are normally picked up earlier - that is how being "behind" or "advanced" is DEFINED. The sentence in which "late readers are not likely to be late" is nonsensical. Vision problems are caused because of a light refraction / eye nerve problems / and other tangible Earthy medical matters, not "hocus-pocus level" considerations and "prevention" of vision problems by avoiding book learning. Adult-like cognition and mature brain structures, whatever that means, is a question of... wait... MATURING into an adult! I am going to censor myself at this point. :D LOL.

Yeah. Right. :glare:

Have you tried studying religion in a more general way, studying different religions (including those that do not somehow stem from the Bible) and their texts, perhaps trying to attend a service or two "as a tourist" or speaking with people who practice them? This can be quite an interesting experience because it allows you to see the place you started from with different eyes... it can also help you pinpoint what you struggle with. I am not sure about feeling "phony" on services - I think attending them for the sole aesthetics / feel of it is not necessarily a morally corrupted thing, in an open, embracing environment. Does it have to be an "all or nothing" package? When you join a church / denomination, are you obliged to go by their opinions in all matters, or can you still sort many things out on your own? You do not even have to HAVE a fixed opinion on many things now, and it is very normal that you are uncomfortable with much of it.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: You have my admiration for your patience. I have daughters younger than yours and I would probably be too gobsmacked to even react in some of those situations (the felony question, banking). Funny how our "common sense" is not so common with some young people. But you may laugh one day looking behind, hopefully. :tongue_smilie: