? about Spanish/Language HS requirements, first DE courses...

[mirabillis]

My question is thus - I'd like my ds to take 4 years of a language (for us, that's Spanish). My intention was to do all 4 years 1-semester each at the local CC for DE course. That way, it's accountable for California A-G standards and helps to round out his transcript with DE courses.

 

But I'm not sure he's ready. Our Spanish 1A is a 4 credit course. And while he knows some Spanish, we've played with it for years - and I speak it well... he's still very much a beginner. My concern is this will be a new foray into CC courses, and will the course load be too much? Because he's already still struggling with 4 outsourced courses (2 APs, one Science with SATII test planned, and one Math - Alg II). And I'm hoping to outsource the Writing portion of English next semester, as I think he'll work better.

 

So springtime, he'll have to study for AP Human Geo, AP Comp Sci, SAT II Biology.... and add to this first time ever DE course? It meets 2x a week 2 1/2 hours apiece. That's a big chunk of the day. And to me, the AP courses/exams, SAT II test, writing skills far outweigh Spanish at the CC spring semester.

 

So if we don't do DE as I've planned all along until 10th grade... I still need him to have a Language credit for this year. Can we do an at-home Spanish course this year and still call it Spanish I - and then still do Span 1A at the CC next year (10th)? I wouldn't think he'd be ready to move into Span 1B or Span 2A (whatever is the 2nd semester equivalent). We already are doing SVOHS (Silicon Valley Online HS) with me supplementing some, and while not a great course, it is A-G approved so we could do 2 semesters of that to fulfill the A-G UCali requirements... But can we then do that and still start fresh at CC in lowest level? That's my question.

 

9th grade - Spanish (at home or SVOHS)

10th grade - Spanish 1A - cc

11th grade - Spanish 1B - cc

12th grade - Spanish 2A - cc

 

Can I do that and all 4 years count?

[wendyroo]

I would worry that he is going to struggle if he only works on Spanish for one semester a year.  That would mean having to retain his skills for 6+ months between when he finishes one class and when he starts the next.

 

I would be tempted to very casually work through something like Getting Started with Spanish in 9th grade while letting him acclimate to a high school work load.  Then I would have him take 2 credits of Spanish in 10th grade (two semester-long community college courses) and 2 more in 11th.

 

Wendy

[justasque]

My question is thus - I'd like my ds to take 4 years of a language (for us, that's Spanish). My intention was to do all 4 years 1-semester each at the local CC for DE course. That way, it's accountable for California A-G standards and helps to round out his transcript with DE courses.

 

But I'm not sure he's ready. Our Spanish 1A is a 4 credit course. And while he knows some Spanish, we've played with it for years - and I speak it well... he's still very much a beginner. My concern is this will be a new foray into CC courses, and will the course load be too much? Because he's already still struggling with 4 outsourced courses (2 APs, one Science with SATII test planned, and one Math - Alg II). And I'm hoping to outsource the Writing portion of English next semester, as I think he'll work better.

 

So springtime, he'll have to study for AP Human Geo, AP Comp Sci, SAT II Biology.... and add to this first time ever DE course? It meets 2x a week 2 1/2 hours apiece. That's a big chunk of the day. And to me, the AP courses/exams, SAT II test, writing skills far outweigh Spanish at the CC spring semester.

 

So if we don't do DE as I've planned all along until 10th grade... I still need him to have a Language credit for this year. Can we do an at-home Spanish course this year and still call it Spanish I - and then still do Span 1A at the CC next year (10th)? I wouldn't think he'd be ready to move into Span 1B or Span 2A (whatever is the 2nd semester equivalent). We already are doing SVOHS (Silicon Valley Online HS) with me supplementing some, and while not a great course, it is A-G approved so we could do 2 semesters of that to fulfill the A-G UCali requirements... But can we then do that and still start fresh at CC in lowest level? That's my question.

 

9th grade - Spanish (at home or SVOHS)

10th grade - Spanish 1A - cc

11th grade - Spanish 1B - cc

12th grade - Spanish 2A - cc

 

Can I do that and all 4 years count?

 

If you're already doing a A-G high school level Spanish course, and he is busy with other academic classes, I think I would just stick with that for this year.  No need to jump into the college level if he is not ready.  And chances are one year of high school Spanish is not nearly enough to place out of the college Spanish 1A course, so no problem with doing that in 10th.  I think you have a good plan.  Be open to re-assessing next year if the cc still seems like a lot.  There is nothing wrong with taking high school level classes in high school, especially if you already have a good mix of APs as a ninth grader.  

[Lori D.]

I agree with Justasque about not jumping into DE and college courses if DS is already busy with advanced high school coursework. You don't want to spread DS so thin that he ends up with just mediocre AP and SATII scores. And I agree with Wendyroo about the risk of losing too much of the language by only taking one 1-semester college foreign language per year. 

 

One other risk: college course grades are part of the permanent college transcript, and if the student isn't quite ready for college rigor/pace, or has too many other things going on to be able to do a good job with the DE and earns a low grade, that will follow the student into the future and could potentially affect university admissions or scholarships -- even if the "oopsie" happens as a young high schooler doing DE.

 

What about holding off and doing the DE in 11th and 12th grades? DS will be more mature and ready for it, and that will still yield 4 credits of foreign language as each 1-semester college course equals 1 YEAR of high school credit. That allows you to continue with high school level Spanish at home in 9th grade and all of 10th grade, and to get solid with the language, which will make taking the DE Spanish at the CC a snap -- which will make the transition into CC easy AND it will still allow him to continue to do other AP and advanced coursework through homeschooling.

 

BEST of luck whatever you decide! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[mirabillis]

I agree with Justasque about not jumping into DE and college courses if DS is already busy with advanced high school coursework. You don't want to spread DS so thin that he ends up with just mediocre AP and SATII scores. And I agree with Wendyroo about the risk of losing too much of the language by only taking one 1-semester college foreign language per year. 

 

 

That's what I'm thinking. I don't want to put forth so much effort the entire year and then bomb the SAT II & AP exams b/c of his DE course... 

 

I hadn't thought of losing language by only taking a semester course. Hmm, interesting thought. 

 

So if I take 2 semesters of DE Spanish 2 years consecutively (let's say in 10th & 11th - or 11th & 12th) as was suggested - that would count as 4 Spanish credits? Even if only condensed into 2 years? Aren't colleges looking for foreign language in each year (9th-12th) rather than the 'number' of credits? Just curious.

 

I could still just do my own this year (9th) and maybe next (10th) and then partake in DE courses, so as to fulfill all 4 years in a foreign language, while having between 4-6 total credit units of the language. That sounds like a win-win.

 

Thanks so much for your advice! I keep telling my dh I'm almost done with the planning and I'll stop being so obsessed on the WTM boards... but then I run off on another rabbit trail. I'm not sure I'll ever be done with rabbit trails now that high school has begun!!

[wendyroo]

That's what I'm thinking. I don't want to put forth so much effort the entire year and then bomb the SAT II & AP exams b/c of his DE course... 

 

I hadn't thought of losing language by only taking a semester course. Hmm, interesting thought. 

 

So if I take 2 semesters of DE Spanish 2 years consecutively (let's say in 10th & 11th - or 11th & 12th) as was suggested - that would count as 4 Spanish credits? Even if only condensed into 2 years? Aren't colleges looking for foreign language in each year (9th-12th) rather than the 'number' of credits? Just curious.

 

I could still just do my own this year (9th) and maybe next (10th) and then partake in DE courses, so as to fulfill all 4 years in a foreign language, while having between 4-6 total credit units of the language. That sounds like a win-win.

 

Thanks so much for your advice! I keep telling my dh I'm almost done with the planning and I'll stop being so obsessed on the WTM boards... but then I run off on another rabbit trail. I'm not sure I'll ever be done with rabbit trails now that high school has begun!!

 

I would be very nervous about that plan.

 

Foreign language courses have a somewhat set body of knowledge that is covered at each level, but it is far from set in stone.  Students who start in an upper level language class at a college are at a distinct disadvantage because there is no guarantee that they will have learned the same vocab, verbs, tenses, expressions, grammar concepts, etc as all the students who took the lower level classes at the college.  

 

Even a couple gaps in knowledge can really sink a student who is also adjusting to a mostly Spanish-speaking classroom while trying to figure out the language lab for the first time while keeping up with a steady onslaught of new material that builds on the concepts that they never learned.  Oftentimes, a college will use the same textbook for multiple levels of a language, so Spanish 3 may not even start with any review, but could jump right in to a chapter partway through the book that the rest of the students are already familiar with.  Or worse yet, it might not even use a textbook, but rather handouts and powerpoints; this can be really hard because then a student entering at level 3 has no way of even going back and self-teaching what he might have missed in levels 1 or 2.

 

And, no, from what I have learned on this board, colleges don't care when students got their credits.  Some students take intensive summer courses, others dual enroll, others spread one credit out over several years.  Some transcripts even group the credits by subject, and don't even mention when they were earned.  So, he doesn't need a language credit this year as long as you have a plan (and a plan B and a plan C) for how he will earn the credits later on.

 

Wendy

[Lori D.]

That's what I'm thinking. I don't want to put forth so much effort the entire year and then bomb the SAT II & AP exams b/c of his DE course... 

 

Esp. since this is 9th grade, and you're just transitioning into full high school work AND doing advanced work, this is wise. You have plenty of time ahead of you for including DE into the mix when DS is comfortable with the high school work + the AP + the extra SATII testing. Once he has that down and is really ready for it, then consider adding DE into the mix.

 

 

I could still just do my own this year (9th) and maybe next (10th) and then partake in DE courses, so as to fulfill all 4 years in a foreign language, while having between 4-6 total credit units of the language. That sounds like a win-win.

 

Absolutely. :) And, it also gives you a little wiggle room in case DS suddenly hits a slow-down point and needs more time to invest in the AP course or for studying for the SATII. Or, in case an unexpected opportunity arises in the way of an extracurricular or internship or volunteering or other that would help him develop skills/interests or open a career path. If you're over-extended, you risk missing out if you don't have a little wiggle room in your schedule. ;)

 

 

So if I take 2 semesters of DE Spanish 2 years consecutively (let's say in 10th & 11th - or 11th & 12th) as was suggested - that would count as 4 Spanish credits? Even if only condensed into 2 years?

 

Yes, exactly. Because the 1 semester college Spanish courses equal 1 YEAR of high school credit.

 

Just as a side note, many public high schools do block scheduling, so students only take 4 courses per semester, but for a longer period of time each, so 1 year/1 credit of material is covered in 1 semester (like a college course). So students earn 4 credits per semester, or 8 credits a year. College admission offices accept those credits just as they accept DE credits which earn 1 year/1 credit in a 1-semester course.

 

 

Aren't colleges looking for foreign language in each year (9th-12th) rather than the 'number' of credits? Just curious.

 

No. College admission offices are looking for specific types/amounts of credits, and do not care how you stacked those credits during the high school year, as long as it shows overall progression and increased difficulty from 9th grade to 12th grade.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks so much for your advice! I keep telling my dh I'm almost done with the planning and I'll stop being so obsessed on the WTM boards... but then I run off on another rabbit trail. I'm not sure I'll ever be done with rabbit trails now that high school has begun!!

 

To help with future college planning, college admission offices are looking for a list of specific credits to have been completed in high school. You can look up on each university's website for the specific credits they want for freshman admissions, but it usually looks something like this:

 

4 credits = English

4 credits = Math (Alg 1., Geometry, Alg. 2, and a 4th math with Alg. 2 as the pre-requisite)

3-4 credits = Science, with labs (some colleges want Biology and Chemistry as 2 of those credits)

2-4 credits = Social Studies (colleges usually want 1 credit to be American History)

2-4 credits = Foreign Language (same language)

1 credit = Fine Arts

4-8+ credits = Electives

22 or more total credits

 

For selective, competitive or top tier colleges, the recommendation is 4 credits each in the first 5 subject areas above, with some of the Electives being Academic Electives -- additional credits in those first 5 areas beyond the required credits. And they usually want some AP or DE to show advanced work. And extracurriculars which help the student stand out and show how the student would fit into the college's student culture.

 

If finances are going to be a concern, then high ACT/SAT test scores are going to be important, so you'd want to have your student take the PSAT in 11th grade for potential NM (National Merit) scholarship money, and also study/practice for doing well on the ACT and/or SAT test. :)

 

BEST of luck as you move through the high school years! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[mirabillis]

Thanks Wendy & Lori D for your advice. OK seeing as how I can get my 4 year requirement starting later than 9th grade, I would wait however we need that credit as I had planned it to round out 6 credits for this year. So I'll likely just round out a full Span credit here at home (supplemented with SVOHS) I think and then begin first level Spanish at college later down the road (keeping in mind what you said Wendy to keep it consecutive and together for better comprehension...) Great advice!

 

Lori D, as for credits, yes I'm nearly through with my loose high school plan and plan to do a full 4 years of the core 5 with our eye on top tier schools.

 

At some point I'll post my plan for the hive's collective advice... ;) Thank you!!

[wendyroo]

Thanks Wendy & Lori D for your advice. OK seeing as how I can get my 4 year requirement starting later than 9th grade, I would wait however we need that credit as I had planned it to round out 6 credits for this year. So I'll likely just round out a full Span credit here at home (supplemented with SVOHS) I think and then begin first level Spanish at college later down the road (keeping in mind what you said Wendy to keep it consecutive and together for better comprehension...) Great advice!

 

Lori D, as for credits, yes I'm nearly through with my loose high school plan and plan to do a full 4 years of the core 5 with our eye on top tier schools.

 

At some point I'll post my plan for the hive's collective advice... ;) Thank you!!

 

Can you do that?  Can you have two credits both listed as Spanish 1?

 

I guess I have heard of that with kids who really struggle with Algebra 1 and have to spread a standard course over two years.  In that situation, I have read the recommendation of listing the first year as Algebra 1A and the second year as Algebra 1B.  I think I would be hesitant to do that unless it was strictly necessary.

 

Wendy

[Lori D.]

Can you do that?  Can you have two credits both listed as Spanish 1?

 

She would list the CC Spanish by the course title of the school, which would be something like SPAN101 and SPAN102. She could list the homeschool Spanish, esp. if just doing one year of it at home, as Introductory Spanish, or if two years at home, Spanish 1 and 2, and then the CC courses, so no course titles would be repeated. :)

[wendyroo]

She would list the CC Spanish by the course title of the school, which would be something like SPAN101 and SPAN102. She could list the homeschool Spanish, esp. if just doing one year of it at home, as Introductory Spanish, or if two years at home, Spanish 1 and 2, and then the CC courses, so no course titles would be repeated. :)

 

So colleges don't care if you earn the four language credits they require by repeating the first two levels of a language twice?  Even if it is not strictly forbidden, it seems that that would raise questions and weaken a transcript.  

 

Listing Introductory Spanish and then SPAN101 and SPAN102 makes it sound to me like the student took a remedial Spanish course before Spanish 1.  That would seem like listing prealgebra as a high school math credit...I thought that was frowned upon and that algebra 1 and Spanish 1 were the lowest courses in those subjects that are classified as high school level.

 

Personally, I think I would choose Spanish 1-4 completed at a high school level, over Spanish 1-2 at a high school level and then repeating them at the community college level...where frankly I think the student would be bored stiff starting back at the beginning unless they learned almost nothing from their two years of Spanish study at home.

 

Wendy

[quark]

She would list the CC Spanish by the course title of the school, which would be something like SPAN101 and SPAN102. She could list the homeschool Spanish, esp. if just doing one year of it at home, as Introductory Spanish, or if two years at home, Spanish 1 and 2, and then the CC courses, so no course titles would be repeated. :)

 

This is what we did for Japanese. DS did a year's worth at home and we called it Introductory Japanese. If OP is using a CC in California for the Spanish 1, there is a chance that the CC's Spanish 1 covers 2 years' worth of high school Spanish (a  number of CA CCs do this -- she can check the equivalency on assist.org). So she could just list the course title for Spanish 1 as whatever the course code is and explain somewhere in the application that Spanish 1 covers 2 years worth of high school Spanish.

 

[Lori D.]

So colleges don't care if you earn the four language credits they require by repeating the first two levels of a language twice?  Even if it is not strictly forbidden, it seems that that would raise questions and weaken a transcript.

 

As with anything that is the least bit "out of the ordinary" or that might raise a red flag, you would address those concerns in the course description document which accompanies the transcript, and in the school administrator letter that explains the educational philosophy of the home education and resources used/available.

 

 

Personally, I think I would choose Spanish 1-4 completed at a high school level, over Spanish 1-2 at a high school level and then repeating them at the community college level...where frankly I think the student would be bored stiff starting back at the beginning unless they learned almost nothing from their two years of Spanish study at home.

 

So much depends on individual family goals AND on what is available locally for families. Your school, your choice. :)

 

The beauty of homeschooling is that you can tailor your student's credits to best your student's level of work and future goals AND fit that with what your family's college financial needs are, AND fit that with what is available to your family locally. :)

 

BEST of luck in your high school journey and college planning! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[mirabillis]

I'm thinking of going the route of quark - 9th grade, this year, homeschooling Spanish, calling it Introductory Spanish.

 

Next year, 10th (why wait until 11th) - we'll jump into DE Span101 and maybe 2nd semester Span 102. Then we could maybe do in 11th grade, fall semester, Span103 (or equivalent). So 3 semesters back to back, so as not to forget anything, but starting this year at home. 

 

Is that a solid plan?

 

9th grade - Introduction to Spanish (1 credit)

10th grade - Span101 / Span102 (2 credits DE)

11th grade - Span103 (1 credit DE)

 

total = 4 credits?

 

And if he loves it, go for a 4th semester spring semester 11th grade.

 

Does that address everyone's thoughts? Best plan?

[Vida Winter]

You should also check CLEP requirments for Spanish. I think you can earn many hours of credit this way, without having to go the DE route. When I checked last, a single test could count for many hours. Of course, the CLEP needs to be accepted by the colleges you apply to.

[OnMyOwn]

I think if you take through Spanish 103 at the college, you easily meet the requirement that many high schools set out as "2 years of 2 languages or 3 years if one language". I'm not sure why you would do an intro course in 9th grade, though? I don't see that adding anything to the transcript and wouldn't personally feel comfortable with that as a 4th year of a language for the type of colleges you are applying to. I'm not saying I would never do it with any type of student, but it wouldn't be my first choice if I was trying to put together the strongest transcript I could.

 

And it is interesting to hear that one can get into UVA or William & Mary without AP classes, but then I'm guessing the students mentioned had DE or something special about them that made them attractive to the school. While it might be very encouraging to hear that you can still apply and have a chance if you have a child who hadn't met those requirements, it doesn't sound like good general advice to not worry about meeting the requirements that the school spells out if it's a college your child really wants to attend.

Edited October 24, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[OnMyOwn]

So colleges don't care if you earn the four language credits they require by repeating the first two levels of a language twice? Even if it is not strictly forbidden, it seems that that would raise questions and weaken a transcript.

 

Listing Introductory Spanish and then SPAN101 and SPAN102 makes it sound to me like the student took a remedial Spanish course before Spanish 1. That would seem like listing prealgebra as a high school math credit...I thought that was frowned upon and that algebra 1 and Spanish 1 were the lowest courses in those subjects that are classified as high school level.

 

Personally, I think I would choose Spanish 1-4 completed at a high school level, over Spanish 1-2 at a high school level and then repeating them at the community college level...where frankly I think the student would be bored stiff starting back at the beginning unless they learned almost nothing from their two years of Spanish study at home.

 

Wendy

Yes, I agree. I can see how doing Spanish 1 and 2 at home and then again at the cc could be done. But should that really be the first choice for someone planning on applying to top tier schools? I can see it if the cc Spanish 1 is covering 2 years of high school Spanish, like quark mentioned, but at the cc's near me, that is not the case.

Edited October 24, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[Chrysalis Academy]

This is what we did for Japanese. DS did a year's worth at home and we called it Introductory Japanese. If OP is using a CC in California for the Spanish 1, there is a chance that the CC's Spanish 1 covers 2 years' worth of high school Spanish (a  number of CA CCs do this -- she can check the equivalency on assist.org). So she could just list the course title for Spanish 1 as whatever the course code is and explain somewhere in the application that Spanish 1 covers 2 years worth of high school Spanish.

 

 

Yep, I looked into it and that seems to be the case here too - the CC calls SPAN1 Elementary Spanish Part 1 and it's for students who have had no previous Spanish.  SPAN2 is Elementary Spanish Part 2 and is for students with 2 years of high school Spanish. Apparently they have experienced the fact that 2 years of high school spanish doesn't bring a student past the Elementary level.  So I'm ok with doing Spanish 1 and Spanish 2 at home and then doing SPAN 2 at the CC - there will be overlap, but I think it's the best and safest thing for my student, especially as it's likely to be one of her first CC classes.  The CC also offers a two-part Intermediate spanish (SPAN 3 and SPAN 4) which would be ideal to cover, but I'm not going to try and force that. At this point dd wants to switch to Italian but I really want her to get at least 2 solid years of Spanish for her transcript. Besides which it's an infinitely more practical language for where we live.  I don't think two years of spanish and one or two years of italian would be the end of the world for her.

[mirabillis]

I think if you take through Spanish 103 at the college, you easily meet the requirement that many high schools set out as "2 years of 2 languages or 3 years if one language". I'm not sure why you would do an intro course in 9th grade, though? I don't see that adding anything to the transcript and wouldn't personally feel comfortable with that as a 4th year of a language for the type of colleges you are applying to. I'm not saying I would never do it with any type of student, but it wouldn't be my first choice if I was trying to put together the strongest transcript I could.

 

 

 

Is this true then? I don't need to show a language for 9th grade at all then? I was doing it 2-fold - to show more 'years' of work, still feeling like they want to see 4 years (like 9-12) worth of language. And as we'll need a new 1 credit elective now if we don't do DE Span like I'd intended. Eek!

 

Should I go back to the original idea and do Span this spring (9th)? I'm so confused! I want the strongest transcript possible.... Help!

 

This is what mine is called:

SPAN 1A

Elementary Spanish I

Description: This introductory course teaches beginning language acquisition in a cultural context through listening, speaking, reading, and writing. The students will interact with authentic language in cultural context.

 

Then semester 2:

SPAN 1B

Elementary Spanish II

Description: This course continues to teach language acquisition in a cultural context through listening, speaking, reading, and writing at the second semester level. The students will continue to interact with authentic language in cultural context.

 

Then next: 

SPAN 2A

Intermediate Spanish I

Description: This course teaches culture and facilitates language acquisition through listening, speaking, reading, and writing. Students will continue to interact with authentic language in context. Content is expanded beyond “survival†needs of the immediate environment in order to express personal meaning and to apply different strategies and techniques to go beyond casual conversation and express opinions, make suggestions on familiar topics, as well as some abstract issues and plans. Students demonstrate an increased awareness of cultural norms, values, and culturally relevant appropriate customs and events. Accuracy becomes quite high for high-frequency structures and vocabulary but more complex discourse is still developing and requires a somewhat sympathetic listener or reader. Students will demonstrate the ability to think critically by analyzing linguistic structures and reflecting on and making cross-cultural comparisons. This course should be taught in Spanish.

Prerequisites: SPAN 1B

 

**ETA** it seems that there is no 4th semester offered at our CC - as that's for heritage speakers:

SPAN 35A

Spanish for Spanish Speakers I

***

 

 

So what should I do, wise Hive mind? What's my best course for a solid 4 year A-G satisfying, top tier entrance for foreign language requirement? If anyone has other suggestions, let me know... I'm open to anything. I will need to outsource (either DE or online- as my ds has shown that as we approach high school, outsourcing is a better method of instruction. TIA!)

 

 

**ETA2** I'm even up for AP Spanish if that was something possible after 3 CC Span courses perhaps - in 12th grade? Please help!

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by mirabillis

[wendyroo]

So, let me see if I have this right.

This year he is in 9th and he is taking:

Algebra 2 - 1 credit

AP Human Geo - 1 credit

AP Comp Sci - 1 credit

Biology with SATII - 1 credit

Writing which will be outsourced next semester - 1 credit

 

I am no expert, but in your shoes I would have him round out his schedule with an elective.  Is there any chance there is a low-stress class at the community college that he would enjoy next semester?  Photography?  Intro to film?  Personal finance?  That would accomplish two goals: 1) It would put him at a solid 6 credits for his freshman year and 2) it would provide a lower stress intro to a dual enrollment class.

 

Then, I would have him take SPAN 1A and B next year.  If this college is like others I have experience with, there will probably be a lot more sections of 1A in the fall and a lot more of 1B in the spring; going with that flow will probably give you a lot more scheduling flexibility.

 

I would have him take 2A in the fall of his junior year, and then I would probably switch him to something like Homeschool Spanish Academy to finish out his final year, perhaps by preparing for the Spanish AP or SATII if that is his goal.

 

Wendy

[OnMyOwn]

Is this true then? I don't need to show a language for 9th grade at all then? I was doing it 2-fold - to show more 'years' of work, still feeling like they want to see 4 years (like 9-12) worth of language. And as we'll need a new 1 credit elective now if we don't do DE Span like I'd intended. Eek!

 

Should I go back to the original idea and do Span this spring (9th)? I'm so confused! I want the strongest transcript possible.... Help!

 

This is what mine is called:

SPAN 1A

Elementary Spanish I

Description: This introductory course teaches beginning language acquisition in a cultural context through listening, speaking, reading, and writing. The students will interact with authentic language in cultural context.

 

Then semester 2:

 

SPAN 1B

Elementary Spanish II

Description: This course continues to teach language acquisition in a cultural context through listening, speaking, reading, and writing at the second semester level. The students will continue to interact with authentic language in cultural context.

 

Then next:

 

SPAN 2A

Intermediate Spanish I

Description: This course teaches culture and facilitates language acquisition through listening, speaking, reading, and writing. Students will continue to interact with authentic language in context. Content is expanded beyond “survival†needs of the immediate environment in order to express personal meaning and to apply different strategies and techniques to go beyond casual conversation and express opinions, make suggestions on familiar topics, as well as some abstract issues and plans. Students demonstrate an increased awareness of cultural norms, values, and culturally relevant appropriate customs and events. Accuracy becomes quite high for high-frequency structures and vocabulary but more complex discourse is still developing and requires a somewhat sympathetic listener or reader. Students will demonstrate the ability to think critically by analyzing linguistic structures and reflecting on and making cross-cultural comparisons. This course should be taught in Spanish.

Prerequisites: SPAN 1B

 

**ETA** it seems that there is no 4th semester offered at our CC - as that's for heritage speakers:

SPAN 35A

Spanish for Spanish Speakers I

***

 

 

So what should I do, wise Hive mind? What's my best course for a solid 4 year A-G satisfying, top tier entrance for foreign language requirement? If anyone has other suggestions, let me know... I'm open to anything. I will need to outsource (either DE or online- as my ds has shown that as we approach high school, outsourcing is a better method of instruction. TIA!)

 

 

**ETA2** I'm even up for AP Spanish if that was something possible after 3 CC Span courses perhaps - in 12th grade? Please help!

You can do your "4 years" of Spanish in two years at the community college. You do not have to do Spanish this year if you are going to do 4 levels of Spanish at the cc. The colleges say 4 years, but I they really mean 4 levels.

 

ETA: I just saw that your cc doesn't offer 4 years of Spanish. Are you sure about that? That seems unusual.

Edited October 24, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[mirabillis]

So, let me see if I have this right.

This year he is in 9th and he is taking:

Algebra 2 - 1 credit

AP Human Geo - 1 credit

AP Comp Sci - 1 credit

Biology with SATII - 1 credit

Writing which will be outsourced next semester - 1 credit (We are doing Writing/Lit this semester also via Windows to the World/LIghtning Lit- and will continue Lit next semester as well but need to outsource writing for my sanity)

 

Yes correct

 

I am no expert, but in your shoes I would have him round out his schedule with an elective.  Is there any chance there is a low-stress class at the community college that he would enjoy next semester?  Photography?  Intro to film?  Personal finance?  That would accomplish two goals: 1) It would put him at a solid 6 credits for his freshman year and 2) it would provide a lower stress intro to a dual enrollment class.

 

I admit I'm scared when it comes to choosing a DE course. How do I know which are easy? They have a bunch of online courses for spring also... he'd be interested in business, personal finance, politics, could do a PE course? Public speaking, stock market... Any thoughts? I'd give you guys our course catalog online if I thought you could help me choose. I don't want to pick wrong! His interests are math & programming.

 

Then, I would have him take SPAN 1A and B next year.  If this college is like others I have experience with, there will probably be a lot more sections of 1A in the fall and a lot more of 1B in the spring; going with that flow will probably give you a lot more scheduling flexibility.

 

Great idea! I like this, thank you.

 

I would have him take 2A in the fall of his junior year, and then I would probably switch him to something like Homeschool Spanish Academy to finish out his final year, perhaps by preparing for the Spanish AP or SATII if that is his goal.

 

Great idea Wendy. I'll look into this. Never heard of it.

 

Wendy

 

[mirabillis]

You can do your "4 years" of Spanish in two years at the community college. You do not have to do Spanish this year if you are going to do 4 levels of Spanish at the cc. The colleges say 4 years, but I they really mean 4 levels.

 

ETA: I just saw that your cc doesn't offer 4 years of Spanish. Are you sure about that? That seems unusual.

 

OK I checked again. This is listed after the 'heritage speaker' course. So I guess this is the 4th semester.

 

SPAN 50

Intermediate Spanish Conversation

Description: This course is designed to promote competency in the oral use of the Spanish language and to increase fluency by reinforcing previously learned materials and by expanding vocabulary and patterns of speech. The course emphasizes the practical application of the language in everyday life situations and current events at the intermediate level.

Prerequisites: SPAN 2A

[quark]

Mirabilis, as pps have said he can knock out his Spanish at the CC. The only issues he might have are if he does not have priority registration, classes like Spanish do fill up quickly (depends on the CC though). If they have lots of sections available it should be fine.

 

For his 9th grade elective, why not an opportunity to knock out his a-g Visual/Performing Arts requirement?

Go to https://hs-articulation.ucop.edu/agcourselist#/list/search/institution

Search for your CC name

Choose your CC from search result

Scroll down the list for the Visual/ Performing Arts courses

You and DS can then choose from that list

 

I was similarly nervous about DS and DE but he enrolled in 4 classes (2 core, 2 elective) his first semester and did absolutely fine with it. If your DS is motivated you might be surprised by how easily it goes for him with a test drive class in the g category or even a communications style class like debate. The challenge is usually not the content but the time management skills (which usually will resolve quickly, unless learning disabilities are cause for concern, with some scaffolding from the parent).

 

Good luck!

 

[mirabillis]

Even if next spring we'll be preparing for 2 AP exams and 1 SAT II test? 

And aren't so many Visual Arts courses subjective? I majored in Art myself and those were my hardest subjects to get an A in as it was so subjective. :)

[quark]

Even if next spring we'll be preparing for 2 AP exams and 1 SAT II test? 

And aren't so many Visual Arts courses subjective? I majored in Art myself and those were my hardest subjects to get an A in as it was so subjective. :)

 

That would definitely depend on the student and you know him best. Another option is to start the DE in summer. DS's g course (from a-g) was fulfilled via a summer film class (hybrid class where about 80% was online and about 20% was IRL meetings).

 

ETA: no personal experience but I've heard that AP Human Geo and AP CS are among the lighter APs? Perhaps talk it over with your DS and see what he says? That buy-in is so important! Good luck!

Edited October 24, 2016 by quark

[swimmermom3]

May I suggest that you talk with a highly experienced Spanish instructor either at the high school or preferably at the university level to get feedback on your plan?

 

Right now, I think your focus is primarily on what the transcript will look like, and maybe not necessarily what the education will look like.

 

There seem to be two schools of thought on this board with regards to foreign language studies: it's a graduation/admissions box to be checked or it will perhaps be an integral part of the student's life. My opinion (and remember that my child is not at a top tier, highly selective school) is that the path is less important if you are box-checking than it will be if you are looking to accomplish fluency.

 

Really think about what your goals are here and make sure your student's goals are aligned.

 

Nothing has to be set in stone at this moment.  One of the factors that influenced my son's path with Spanish was a conversation with his cousin who had graduated from college in three years and who had minored in Spanish, but who felt like her conversational skills were still very basic. My son wanted more than that and we changed our plan half way through high school.

 

:grouphug:  Good luck with all of the planning.

[quark]

Part of the problem for CA homeschoolers is the frustrating a-g requirements. For the last requirement (g - visual arts) all DS wanted to do was check a box! :p

[swimmermom3]

Part of the problem for CA homeschoolers is the frustrating a-g requirements. For the last requirement (g - visual arts) all DS wanted to do was check a box! :p

 

That's why I didn't really feel like I could fully address the OP's concerns.  It's no easy task to meet those requirements, focus on a transcript that is top tier worthy and still address actual educational concerns such as lack of continuity in instruction by only taking a semester a year or what if the student actually wants to keep going with their studies in college, but you take senior year off?

 

Quark, are the a-g requirements kind of like college general education requirements?  Ds has to take two courses in five areas that have a specific focus like fine art or science.  That's how he ended up in a modern art class. ;)

 

[mirabillis]

No for us, it's about checking a box. It's the reality for entrance into UC schools, so it is what it is. Whether people agree with it or not, we need to follow the high school plans set for us - while 2 years is required, I understand 4 years looks better, and so we'll go that route. Otherwise, we'd probably just do 2 years. But I speak Spanish fairly fluently, and in California, it is important to be able to speak the language as so many speak only Spanish here, it's a real boost if you can. He's just not learning it from me. It's a sad fact that many PS kids aren't able to get into UC schools with top scores, etc so it's in our best interest to have the best transcript we can. So yes we have to take into account having the best and strongest transcript we can. Be glad you don't live in California. ;)

 

Quark - yes I agree about those being the lighter APs - we're starting off lighter as we can. I'll look into the DE course choices and see where it goes from there. And my son feels the same way about G requirement... :D

 

 

[swimmermom3]

No for us, it's about checking a box. It's the reality for entrance into UC schools, so it is what it is. Whether people agree with it or not, we need to follow the high school plans set for us - while 2 years is required, I understand 4 years looks better, and so we'll go that route. Otherwise, we'd probably just do 2 years. But I speak Spanish fairly fluently, and in California, it is important to be able to speak the language as so many speak only Spanish here, it's a real boost if you can. He's just not learning it from me. It's a sad fact that many PS kids aren't able to get into UC schools with top scores, etc so it's in our best interest to have the best transcript we can. So yes we have to take into account having the best and strongest transcript we can. Be glad you don't live in California. ;)

 

Quark - yes I agree about those being the lighter APs - we're starting off lighter as we can. I'll look into the DE course choices and see where it goes from there. And my son feels the same way about G requirement... :D

 

"How Can You Best Prepare for Harvard?

We hope you will read our thoughts about choosing high school courses that will provide a strong base for a liberal arts education. But in summary, we recommend:

• The study of English for four years: close and extensive reading of the classics of the world’s literature
• Four years of a single foreign language
• The study of history for at least two, and preferably three years: American history, European history, and one additional advanced history course
• The study of mathematics for four years, including the particular topics described
• The study of science for four years: physics, chemistry, and biology, and preferably one of these at an advanced level
• Frequent practice in the writing of expository prose

Various important secondary school subjects, such as art and music, are not specifically mentioned in our recommendations. The omission of these subjects should not be interpreted as a value judgment. We are concerned only with secondary school subjects for which we have data that suggest they are specific prerequisites for college work."

So, in your shoes, what I would want to know is if, like others have posted, those top tier universities will view four semesters of CC foreign language as equivalent to four years of high school foreign language. Would it make a difference if you took those four semesters at a university versus the CC? 

 

If this is only box checking, then I would think you would want to get the best use out of your educational time.  If your student will be heavily invested in advanced coursework, then four years of a solid, but not overly demanding high school level foreign language class would make sense. It's the breathing space in the schedule - as long as you are sure that proficiency won't play a part in a potential major.

 

On the other hand, if your student is comfortable with the level of work, then two years of DE frees up two years for work that is more in line with your student's goals - as long as the schools he is applying to recognize the DE work as four years.

 

Good luck with this choice and please do keep us posted.

[quark]

Quark, are the a-g requirements kind of like college general education requirements?  Ds has to take two courses in five areas that have a specific focus like fine art or science.  That's how he ended up in a modern art class. ;)

 

 

You need a minimum of 15 a-g approved classes to apply to UCs and why so many of the CA homeschoolers here go berserk over finding CC classes or testing options to validate them when not using approved vendors but choosing instead to follow their hearts with independent studies or other (usually very high quality) vendors. :glare: And why when AoPS was approved as an a-g vendor several moms I know IRL literally happy danced lol.

 

We have been somewhat lucky in that DS chose classes at CC that both fit interests and a-g. Actually, to be honest, even his g class (visual arts) was in an area of interest (film). It was very easy for him to take it because it meant 6 glorious summer weeks of watching oldies (he loves old movies) and critiquing them and he of course will never say no to that. He "discovered" The Godfather (yes, I admit to not knowing enough about this classic movie before then :blushing:) thanks to that class and adores the movie now.

 

[mirabillis]

If this is only box checking, then I would think you would want to get the best use out of your educational time.  If your student will be heavily invested in advanced coursework, then four years of a solid, but not overly demanding high school level foreign language class would make sense. It's the breathing space in the schedule - as long as you are sure that proficiency won't play a part in a potential major.

 

This would be fine too. Problem is I need to 'validate' these as A-G approved, so essentially the course counts. I've lined everything up, from English to Math to History and Science - and we'll have everything 'count' by either AP exam, SAT II subject test or taking the course from an approved A-G course. That's the problem. Is there an A-G approved Spanish course? I don't completely foresee my son making it all the way to AP or SAT II subject level to be able to 'test out of' this requirement, kwim? If he excelled and really had a knack for it, I'm all for AP Spanish down the road. But if not, I don't want all my foreign language requirement eggs in the basket of 1 single AP test...

 

So that's why I thought foreign language = dual enrollment.

 

I'd much prefer a not overly demanding high school level foreign language/Spanish class. But is there such an A-G approved one? I don't know of one offhand...

[mirabillis]

I think if you take through Spanish 103 at the college, you easily meet the requirement that many high schools set out as "2 years of 2 languages or 3 years if one language". I'm not sure why you would do an intro course in 9th grade, though? I don't see that adding anything to the transcript and wouldn't personally feel comfortable with that as a 4th year of a language for the type of colleges you are applying to. I'm not saying I would never do it with any type of student, but it wouldn't be my first choice if I was trying to put together the strongest transcript I could.

 

 

Would a Spanish 1 course here at home (or via SVHS - Silicon Valley HS, faciliated by me) this year really hurt his prospects for a strong transcript? I paid for Span 1 via SVHS - only $50. Then I saw it was just aggregated material. Nothing great, pretty sub-par. But it got me working on Spanish, so I figured we'd wade through it and watch it with all the youngers to get some more exposure to Spanish. So I just figured if I don't DE Spanish this spring, I'd just finish that - and if I finish it, wouldn't I want it on my transcript? UNLESS it hurts the transcript.... I feel a quick Intro Span would be a great help to Elementary Spanish CC-style...

[mirabillis]

I was similarly nervous about DS and DE but he enrolled in 4 classes (2 core, 2 elective) his first semester and did absolutely fine with it. If your DS is motivated you might be surprised by how easily it goes for him with a test drive class in the g category or even a communications style class like debate. The challenge is usually not the content but the time management skills (which usually will resolve quickly, unless learning disabilities are cause for concern, with some scaffolding from the parent).

 

Good luck!

Thanks for the link, quark. That is helpful... Debate! That could be our 6th credit for this school year and an intro into CC classes. Let me look into that (if we don't have any Span to add to the transcript this year)... 

[OnMyOwn]

Would a Spanish 1 course here at home (or via SVHS - Silicon Valley HS, faciliated by me) this year really hurt his prospects for a strong transcript? I paid for Span 1 via SVHS - only $50. Then I saw it was just aggregated material. Nothing great, pretty sub-par. But it got me working on Spanish, so I figured we'd wade through it and watch it with all the youngers to get some more exposure to Spanish. So I just figured if I don't DE Spanish this spring, I'd just finish that - and if I finish it, wouldn't I want it on my transcript? UNLESS it hurts the transcript.... I feel a quick Intro Span would be a great help to Elementary Spanish CC-style...

Mirabillis, I don't really know if it would hurt or not. I think that's going to depend on the schools you are applying to and what else is on your son's transcript. When you said your son was shooting for top tier schools, it made more sense to me to take 4 progressive years of a language and I thought if you were going to have him take Spanish at the cc, why not take 4 years there rather than 1 year at home and then 3 years at cc. One of my children is only going to take 3 years of a foreign language, and I'm proud of him for making it to the third year, but he's not shooting for a top tier college.

 

ETA: And if I thought doing a level at home first would help my child to succeed in their DE course later, then yes, I would do that.

Edited October 25, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[mirabillis]

Well yes, that was my intention - 4 years of Spanish (9th-12th) but this past week worrying that the course load of DE Spanish beginning in Spring may be too much... hence the reason for my post! LOL. If everything could just go according to my grand plan in my head. I guess it's when I saw the course catalog release, and see it's 2x/wk meeting 2 1/2 hours apiece, that really hit home just how 'much' that will add to an already full plate. And he may play a sport in the spring...

 

Yea, we may just forego the Intro Spanish this year. Reading the requirements, it does state:

 

"Grade of C or better in any transferable course.. held by the college to be equivalent to two years of high school language.."

 

So 2 semesters will satisfy the requirement of 2 years of language - a 3rd semester would satisfy the recommended amount - and a 4th semester or AP course at the end would satisfy the above and beyond 4th year.

 

I was just selfishly not wanting to come up with another credit for this year. LOL! 

 

 

[wendyroo]

This would be fine too. Problem is I need to 'validate' these as A-G approved, so essentially the course counts. I've lined everything up, from English to Math to History and Science - and we'll have everything 'count' by either AP exam, SAT II subject test or taking the course from an approved A-G course. That's the problem. Is there an A-G approved Spanish course? I don't completely foresee my son making it all the way to AP or SAT II subject level to be able to 'test out of' this requirement, kwim? If he excelled and really had a knack for it, I'm all for AP Spanish down the road. But if not, I don't want all my foreign language requirement eggs in the basket of 1 single AP test...

 

So that's why I thought foreign language = dual enrollment.

 

I'd much prefer a not overly demanding high school level foreign language/Spanish class. But is there such an A-G approved one? I don't know of one offhand...

 

I think according to this list that Homeschool Spanish Academy is an approved A-G provider of 4 years of Spanish instruction.  I have been keeping HSA in mind for the future for my kids, because while it is a bit expensive, the Hive seems generally pleased with it.

 

One big advantage of HSA in your situation is that the scheduling is flexible.  Many online high school Spanish courses would have already started several months ago, so you would either have to scramble to catch up or wait until next semester to start.  HSA, on the other hand, doesn't run on a set schedule.  To the best of my knowledge, you could start now, maybe even slow down for a month in the spring during AP prep, and then finish up Spanish 1 over the summer.  Then you could move directly on to Spanish 2 and get a head start to ease his load next year.

 

Just an idea.

 

Wendy

[OnMyOwn]

Well yes, that was my intention - 4 years of Spanish (9th-12th) but this past week worrying that the course load of DE Spanish beginning in Spring may be too much... hence the reason for my post! LOL. If everything could just go according to my grand plan in my head. I guess it's when I saw the course catalog release, and see it's 2x/wk meeting 2 1/2 hours apiece, that really hit home just how 'much' that will add to an already full plate. And he may play a sport in the spring...

 

Yea, we may just forego the Intro Spanish this year. Reading the requirements, it does state:

 

"Grade of C or better in any transferable course.. held by the college to be equivalent to two years of high school language.."

 

So 2 semesters will satisfy the requirement of 2 years of language - a 3rd semester would satisfy the recommended amount - and a 4th semester or AP course at the end would satisfy the above and beyond 4th year.

 

I was just selfishly not wanting to come up with another credit for this year. LOL!

And honestly, I wouldn't hesitate to do the intro to Spanish course this year for credit. I'm just not sure "I" would use it as one of my 4 years of a language for a child with the goals that yours has. From the discussion above, it seems that others would. Best of luck in figuring out the right path for your son.

[mirabillis]

I think according to this list that Homeschool Spanish Academy is an approved A-G provider of 4 years of Spanish instruction.  I have been keeping HSA in mind for the future for my kids, because while it is a bit expensive, the Hive seems generally pleased with it.

 

One big advantage of HSA in your situation is that the scheduling is flexible.  Many online high school Spanish courses would have already started several months ago, so you would either have to scramble to catch up or wait until next semester to start.  HSA, on the other hand, doesn't run on a set schedule.  To the best of my knowledge, you could start now, maybe even slow down for a month in the spring during AP prep, and then finish up Spanish 1 over the summer.  Then you could move directly on to Spanish 2 and get a head start to ease his load next year.

 

Just an idea.

 

Wendy

ooh I like that. I'll look into it! You are so sweet!

[mirabillis]

I want to say thank you to all who responded. You have really helped me immeasurably. While ready to jump in with both feet, I have now backed off and reconsidered wholly our launch into DE...

 

swimmermom- I love what you said about a solid 4 years of high school level foreign language. But I didn't know of an A-G approved Spanish course so felt DE was my only chance to validate this requirement.

 

wendy - thank you for pointing me in the direction of Homeschool Spanish Academy. Yes, A-G approved and sounds really great. Expensive, but it's something we need to consider.

 

Lori D - thanks for popping in here, and thanks to all the other great advice you've shared all over the place. I've scoured the boards for AP vs DE and all about DE - and found scores of posts in which many you posted some amazingly helpful past threads about the subject. In doing so, I feel even more unsure about jumping into DE, due to so many aspects - scheduling, work load at the expense of other courses, less flexibility in absences, and most importantly, it's forever! I also saw that you personally have experience with Spanish/foreign language at the CC - how was that? please let me know, I'd love to know how it went - how fast is fast for Spanish? How much does it cover in 1 semester?

 

 

quark - I understand you did 1 year of Japanese at home and then went to CC for further courses. Did you start at the elementary 1 level? Are you saying that this works in progression as CC Span 1 (or Japanese 1) is really 2 years' worth of high school. So if you only took '1 year' of high school language, you would need to begin at Span 1? Is that what you're saying? I looked at the assist.org link - but not sure what that's telling me.

 

~~~

I think my gut is telling me it's best we stick with high school level foreign language. And leave DE best suited to another perhaps 'easier' subject. But we can keep our options open for perhaps 10th or 11th like other posters have mentioned... maybe, maybe not. I feel with our smorgasbord of AP courses planned, we would like to add some DE courses to show ability to learn in a classroom setting, but maybe Spanish is not the place for it. He's a mathy/programming guy - so maybe something like that would better suit to fast pace? And now thanks to wendy (yay!) I have a valid A-G homeschool option. Expensive, but that's the price we pay for keeping them at home sometimes. And I wouldn't trade it for the world!!!
 

 

 

[quark]

quark - I understand you did 1 year of Japanese at home and then went to CC for further courses. Did you start at the elementary 1 level? Are you saying that this works in progression as CC Span 1 (or Japanese 1) is really 2 years' worth of high school. So if you only took '1 year' of high school language, you would need to begin at Span 1? Is that what you're saying? I looked at the assist.org link - but not sure what that's telling me.

 

 

(edited for clarity)

I believe this is going to depend from CC to CC but DS's Japanese 1 at his CC is listed as equivalent to 2 years of high school Japanese study on their course catalog (sorry, I know that I also saw this on assist.org a while back but cannot pull it up now).

 

9th grade - DS used the Irasshai curriculum with some help from a tutor (I called this the introductory level and gave it 1 credit).

11th grade - He didn't want to challenge placement for DE Japanese so he went into Japanese 1. This was a good placement for him because the pace was rapid and he needed the review after a year away from Japanese (no time in schedule).

12th grade - Japanese 2 (fall) and Japanese 3 (spring).

 

I know how people have suggested not having any breaks between language classes but this was never an issue for DS. His schedule was such that he had to take a semester off between Japanese 1 and 2 but he just picked it right back up (they also start with some review).

 

Although there is lots of practice and the pace is quick, Japanese is not (yet) the most rigorous course at this CC. I think it will get harder next year but level 1 and 2 have only been both enjoyable and tedious but not very challenging for him. Perhaps other CCs' Japanese might be harder? Japanese 2 is his easiest course this semester. I have heard that Spanish is often harder but no personal experience or ability to compare.

 

Another ETA: I am not overthinking foreign language because I think he has enough for his own goals at the moment. He wanted to learn Japanese and loves it but is not extremely, intensely passionate about languages. My focus would have been very different if I had a languages-crazy child.

Edited October 27, 2016 by quark