Classical Conversations-need placement help!

[happyWImom]

I have finally made the decision to do CC, and I think it's totally a God-thing.  I will be tutoring either Foundations or Essentials, and my ds will be in those classes.  My big decision now is where to place my dd.  This is our very first year in CC, so I am concerned about having her start right away with Challenge A.  

 

On the one hand, I feel she would be able to do the geography and science.  She might be okay with the writing but I'm really concerned about the Latin and math.  I have not been very structured, and she really hasn't had to deal with any deadlines.  I feel the accountability, discussion and learning to be more independent are all positives and why I am leaning towards Challenge.  But, we are VERY behind in math.  She is just finishing MUS Delta.  I have no problem moving to Saxon, but she'll be way behind-and she's very self-conscious about it.  I know they teach the concepts there, but will she be able to follow?  Also, we have only done SSL so far, and she will be finished with R&S 4 when we start CC in the fall.  

 

She hates the idea of dd basically being on the same level as her in all subjects (if they both do Found. & Essentials) right now he is doing MUS Gamma (but is almost done with it & ready to start Delta) and R&S 3.  History we do together and science I do have her do notebooking for Apologia Zoo. 

 

Anyway, I would really appreciate some help here.  I keep going back & forth.  Also, this is a child who has anxiety issues that are under control now, but are there.  I want to challenge her (ha, ha) but I don't want to push her over the edge or totally overwhelm her, either.

 

The one other benefit of her doing Challenge is that she wouldn't have me as a tutor, like she would if she was in the other class.  I do need to find out more info. on the Challenge tutor, and am going to do that soon.

 

Last thing, as of now it would be dd and 4 other boys in Challenge.  2 of them she knows from our hs group.  They are both in advanced math & did Foundations & Essentials this year.

[abrightmom]

Tammi,

 

My experience with CC is limited as we just finished our first year. I have strongly considered the Challenge program and spent a fair amount of time researching, asking questions, reading threads, observing, etc. My view of CC is pretty level at this point as I have had time to work through my love/hate relationship with it. ;)

 

In your daughter's case my gut says no to Challenge based on some things you've shared but there ARE exceptions in every case.  To me, it sounds like she needs another year focused very carefully on building her skills and bringing her up to speed in several areas including time management. I don't know that the material would be too rigorous for her (except math but you can use your own and ignore that seminar or just listen in) but the DEMANDS in terms of focused study and use of time may be. Instead of ChA I'd trim and streamline her schedule so that she can focus very carefully on the key subjects: math, writing, literature, grammar, etc. I'd work ahead of time to completely organize her first semester and use it to teach her to follow a routine/schedule/checklist. I'd work in the second semester toward helping her to plan her weekly work based upon what is assigned and then having her fill in her own schedule. You could consider outsourcing ONE course elsewhere (online) to ease her in to the outside accountability and set deadlines. I know I need this kind of help as I get very turned around in the day to day. 

 

I find Foundations to be *young* for the 5th/6th grade set but my oldest did have a great time due to a great tutor. He learned, he made friends, he practiced preparing/presenting, etc. We didn't do Essentials although I sat in two weeks to try it out and I previewed the guide thoroughly. Keep in mind that the IEW programs they use are geared toward middle school so the writing would be thorough instruction for your daughter. That could be your outsourced class in which she learns to meet deadlines as there is a writing assignment every week. One thing I like is that the Found/Essent programs only run 24 weeks. That is a power packed season of school but then there is plenty of time woven around that for *other* types of learning and reading. Essentials has a lot of grammar as well (and she could max out the weekly options if she is ready for it). I don't know if Rod & Staff 4 will be enough before Challenge. You'll have to ask about that one. She could also use the *lightness* of Foundations to her advantage. She should work on mastering as much of the memory work as possible, especially the Latin and math. She could even pursue Memory Master which is a worthy goal for her. I'd just make sure to prepare a thorough literature list for classics, history and science. I wouldn't do a separate science program unless she really has time or interest because it sounds like she needs to focus on other studies. I'd also add a strong middle school level Bible study of some sort as CC doesn't contain Bible Study. Here is what you *could* devote her school day hours of study to with the Not Challenge Plan:

 

**Math (spending as much time as she tolerate without burn out and work very consistently - does she need a math tutor? Is she behind because of struggle or because of slacking off? If she struggles and MUS works for her I'd stay with it at this point. Saxon is sooooooooo different from MUS and it would just be one more new thing to figure out, you know? Don't switch for ChA. She won't place in the right level anyway.)

**Composition: IEW U.S. History and max out the assignments if needed.

**Grammar: EEL and give this her all in terms of analysis of sentences, memory work, editing work, etc. Max it out. How is her spelling? She could shore up weaknesses here. 

**Foundations memory work and possibly pursue Memory Master. I'd make sure she spends plenty of time mastering that weekly work, drawing maps (she needs this practice for Challenge), etc. 

**Bible. Something meaty and relevant to her age/stage. Maybe a purity study? 

**Literature: make this reading list huge, deep, and wide (as huge, deep and wide as she can take :) ) and let her enjoy reading a ton.

**I don't know if there's anything else specific I'd plan for her until the above list was running like clockwork every week and she had too much time on her hands. If she needs *more* I'd consider a Figuratively Speaking unit, Fallacy Detective or something techy like a coding class. I might also use my copy of TWTM and figure out how to teach her to write literary essays a la SWB (they're not as hard as they sound and darn it if I'm not going to start assigning those in 6th grade!). She could do one a week. 

 

If you go ahead with Challenge I'd be inclined to NOT tutor and instead sit with her through Challenge. You may find it very beneficial to sit through the programs the first year and enjoy the journey of learning the ropes with your kids (and making sure you love CC enough to be that committed) without your own personal set of unrelenting due dates (i.e. being ready to teach or present weekly). Essentials would be an especially heavy workload your first year through CC. When there are so many unknowns you could easily get yourself over committed and not be able to give enough time to each area (tutoring on top of keeping up with Foundations, Essentials and possibly Challenge). She'll need you every step of the way and you will have a lot to do to carry her through, especially the first several weeks. Keep in mind that the role of the tutor is different  than that of a teacher. I find it hard to explain because there is teaching and guiding happening that one day a week but YOU are teaching the other four. So, you have to know the Lost Tools of Writing material and keep your finger on the pulse of every subject so that you can teach her, guide her, help her, walk with her. She'll likely need help learning to structure her studies into daily blocks for each subject. She writes a lot and presents her science research every single week. She may feel quite overwhelmed for awhile and will need you to come alongside and see her through all of these new challenges. Also, the quality of Challenge tutors varies widely which I find disheartening. I'd not consider signing her up without knowing WHO is tutoring and what calibre of tutor they are. I am disappointed that CC doesn't require their Challenge tutors to have relative mastery of the subjects they are presenting …. It presents a problem as your experience with Challenge will greatly depend upon WHO is tutoring. 

 

My son's tutor held her oldest daughter back a year in order to lay a strong foundation. She did Foundations and Essentials as a 7th grader because that is where SHE needed to be. Challenge A was her 8th grade year and in retrospect the Mom is pleased with the growth in her daughter this year. She believes the decision to have her wait a year was right. It isn't right for every kid. Some kids need to get into Challenge earlier …. It's really about doing what is right for the child within the paradigm (CC or not) that works for your family.

 

I encourage you to count the cost carefully so that you don't over commit. 

[Lori D.]

No personal experience with CC, but I do have experience with MUS and Saxon, and have had a DS who struggled with math and writing, due to mild LDs. Just our situation: I know that a class setting such as a co-op that would have expected more than DS could deliver in those areas would have made him shut down and stop trying, which would defeat the purpose of a co-op class.

 

I think that is VERY wise to not have DD and sibling in the same level, esp. as DD has already expressed distress over the idea of being in the same "grade" or class as younger sibling. Esp. when it is an older sibling who is a late-bloomer or has LDs, it is crucial to have them working with different materials to help the older student relax and focus on learning, instead of a lot of their focus and energy being channeled away into upset and frustratration and feeling "stupid" because younger sibling does the same thing they are doing.

 

Also, I personally think that would be extremely stressful to ask a "late-bloomer" student to step into starting Latin (which she has never had before), PLUS switch away from a math program she is familiar with for a math that is 2 years above her current working level, AND join a class where other students are advanced in math AND have been doing the Latin AND are familiar with the class routine.

 

My biggest concern would be switching math programs. MUS and Saxon are extremely different in presentation, and if your DD has struggled with math and is finally "clicking" with MUS, switching to Saxon could be a huge set-back. The higher levels of Saxon, starting well before Saxon 8/7, become increasingly abstract and non-visual in presentation.

 

A bigger problem is that to it looks like Challenge A would require her to be doing Saxon 8/7. A student would absolutely need to have covered fractions (MUS Epsilon), and decimals and percents (MUS Zeta) at a minimum to be able to move to Saxon 8/7. Those are foundational skills and NOT ones to rush through, or to skip. Over and over, I see parents posting on the high school board about the frustrations resulting from not taking the extra time to make sure the student really GETS the foundational math skills, which are crucial for success in Algebra 1 and the other higher maths.

 

Please, meant gently and with all respect -- do NOT rush / push your student through the math in order to get into a co-op class. I cannot stress this enough, from my own experience with a math struggler. They do NOT learn it faster by pushing. They are on their own unique timetable, and they DO get it -- WHEN you use the materials that click for THEM, and at the pace that allows THEM to absorb it. There is such a big risk of losing a student and making the high school years of math a nightmare by trying to push or rush math in the middle school years. 

 

 

If it were me, when meeting with the Challenge tutor, I'd be asking a lot of questions:

 

- How flexible is CC and/or the tutor -- Would they allow you continue with MUS?

- What DO they do when a student is a late-bloomer? What happens if the student just doesn't "get" the math (or Latin)?

- Since there would only be 5 students, would the tutor be willing to tutor each at their own level, or would s/he just be presenting scripted material?

- Would CC allow DD to use the math period as a separate study hall time and do her own math at her own pace?

 

 

I would talk with DD. She is 12yo, and should have input, as this decision would directly affect her. (Of course, final decisions rest with parents :) ):

 

- If DD has to stay for the math period, how will she feel each week if they are covering topics she is still 2 years away from being ready for? -- Or if she is doing a different math program from everyone else?

- Would you be able to get the Latin materials from the previous levels and work with DD over the summer to get her comfortable with the Latin -- Would she even be willing/interested in doing that?

- How does DD feel about doing CC -- Does DD even WANT to do it? Attitude and willingness is SO important for success in mastering the material at this stage as you move into harder/higher work!

 

 

If it were me, I would be looking long and hard at the pros and cons specifically for DD, and be seriously considering allowing her to work at home and allow her to move ahead at her own pace with the materials that best help her do that -- and just do CC with DS, as it sounds like that would work well for both you and for DS.

 

Just my 2 cents, FWIW! :) BEST of luck as you pray and think through what is best for each student and for your family. Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[G5052]

Given what you have outlined, I would be concerned about Challenge A, but wouldn't rule it out.

 

At our former campus, the majority of the students were using a different math program, so the tutor used the Saxon book to pick topics each week but on the checklist only expected that they complete four lessons in whatever program they were using.  We use Saxon, but were usually in a different book or at a different lesson, and that was fine there.

 

For Latin, I'd be concerned about what grammar you've used, but not that she hasn't ever had Latin before.  The Latin in Challenge A goes slowly, but students who haven't had rigorous grammar struggle much more than those who have had no Latin.  If she's used Rod and Staff through grade 5 or so, she should be fine.  My oldest had never done Latin before, and did beautifully.

 

Writing weekly science reports and the Lost Tools assignments challenges some who aren't used to churning out that much writing.

 

At some campuses, there are a good number of 12 y.o. in Foundations and Essentials, or I've also seen where the 12 y.o. serves as an assistant in a younger Foundations class and then takes Essentials.  If you go that way, tell her that Essentials is a multi-level program. When I was an Essentials tutor, I always had 7th graders and sometimes even 8th graders in the class (not sure if they allow that now).

 

One of mine was ready academically for Challenge, but had a hard time emotionally (but did very well). We had some tears at times with it. The other whizzed through it like butter, and probably could have done it the year before if not for the age cut-off.

[happyWImom]

Tammi,

 

My experience with CC is limited as we just finished our first year. I have strongly considered the Challenge program and spent a fair amount of time researching, asking questions, reading threads, observing, etc. My view of CC is pretty level at this point as I have had time to work through my love/hate relationship with it. ;)

 

In your daughter's case my gut says no to Challenge based on some things you've shared but there ARE exceptions in every case.  To me, it sounds like she needs another year focused very carefully on building her skills and bringing her up to speed in several areas including time management. I don't know that the material would be too rigorous for her (except math but you can use your own and ignore that seminar or just listen in) but the DEMANDS in terms of focused study and use of time may be. Instead of ChA I'd trim and streamline her schedule so that she can focus very carefully on the key subjects: math, writing, literature, grammar, etc. I'd work ahead of time to completely organize her first semester and use it to teach her to follow a routine/schedule/checklist. I'd work in the second semester toward helping her to plan her weekly work based upon what is assigned and then having her fill in her own schedule. You could consider outsourcing ONE course elsewhere (online) to ease her in to the outside accountability and set deadlines. I know I need this kind of help as I get very turned around in the day to day. 

 

I find Foundations to be *young* for the 5th/6th grade set but my oldest did have a great time due to a great tutor. He learned, he made friends, he practiced preparing/presenting, etc. We didn't do Essentials although I sat in two weeks to try it out and I previewed the guide thoroughly. Keep in mind that the IEW programs they use are geared toward middle school so the writing would be thorough instruction for your daughter. That could be your outsourced class in which she learns to meet deadlines as there is a writing assignment every week. One thing I like is that the Found/Essent programs only run 24 weeks. That is a power packed season of school but then there is plenty of time woven around that for *other* types of learning and reading. Essentials has a lot of grammar as well (and she could max out the weekly options if she is ready for it). I don't know if Rod & Staff 4 will be enough before Challenge. You'll have to ask about that one. She could also use the *lightness* of Foundations to her advantage. She should work on mastering as much of the memory work as possible, especially the Latin and math. She could even pursue Memory Master which is a worthy goal for her. I'd just make sure to prepare a thorough literature list for classics, history and science. I wouldn't do a separate science program unless she really has time or interest because it sounds like she needs to focus on other studies. I'd also add a strong middle school level Bible study of some sort as CC doesn't contain Bible Study. Here is what you *could* devote her school day hours of study to with the Not Challenge Plan:

 

**Math (spending as much time as she tolerate without burn out and work very consistently - does she need a math tutor? Is she behind because of struggle or because of slacking off? If she struggles and MUS works for her I'd stay with it at this point. Saxon is sooooooooo different from MUS and it would just be one more new thing to figure out, you know? Don't switch for ChA. She won't place in the right level anyway.)

**Composition: IEW U.S. History and max out the assignments if needed.

**Grammar: EEL and give this her all in terms of analysis of sentences, memory work, editing work, etc. Max it out. How is her spelling? She could shore up weaknesses here. 

**Foundations memory work and possibly pursue Memory Master. I'd make sure she spends plenty of time mastering that weekly work, drawing maps (she needs this practice for Challenge), etc. 

**Bible. Something meaty and relevant to her age/stage. Maybe a purity study? 

**Literature: make this reading list huge, deep, and wide (as huge, deep and wide as she can take :) ) and let her enjoy reading a ton.

**I don't know if there's anything else specific I'd plan for her until the above list was running like clockwork every week and she had too much time on her hands. If she needs *more* I'd consider a Figuratively Speaking unit, Fallacy Detective or something techy like a coding class. I might also use my copy of TWTM and figure out how to teach her to write literary essays a la SWB (they're not as hard as they sound and darn it if I'm not going to start assigning those in 6th grade!). She could do one a week. 

 

If you go ahead with Challenge I'd be inclined to NOT tutor and instead sit with her through Challenge. You may find it very beneficial to sit through the programs the first year and enjoy the journey of learning the ropes with your kids (and making sure you love CC enough to be that committed) without your own personal set of unrelenting due dates (i.e. being ready to teach or present weekly). Essentials would be an especially heavy workload your first year through CC. When there are so many unknowns you could easily get yourself over committed and not be able to give enough time to each area (tutoring on top of keeping up with Foundations, Essentials and possibly Challenge). She'll need you every step of the way and you will have a lot to do to carry her through, especially the first several weeks. Keep in mind that the role of the tutor is different  than that of a teacher. I find it hard to explain because there is teaching and guiding happening that one day a week but YOU are teaching the other four. So, you have to know the Lost Tools of Writing material and keep your finger on the pulse of every subject so that you can teach her, guide her, help her, walk with her. She'll likely need help learning to structure her studies into daily blocks for each subject. She writes a lot and presents her science research every single week. She may feel quite overwhelmed for awhile and will need you to come alongside and see her through all of these new challenges. Also, the quality of Challenge tutors varies widely which I find disheartening. I'd not consider signing her up without knowing WHO is tutoring and what calibre of tutor they are. I am disappointed that CC doesn't require their Challenge tutors to have relative mastery of the subjects they are presenting …. It presents a problem as your experience with Challenge will greatly depend upon WHO is tutoring. 

 

My son's tutor held her oldest daughter back a year in order to lay a strong foundation. She did Foundations and Essentials as a 7th grader because that is where SHE needed to be. Challenge A was her 8th grade year and in retrospect the Mom is pleased with the growth in her daughter this year. She believes the decision to have her wait a year was right. It isn't right for every kid. Some kids need to get into Challenge earlier …. It's really about doing what is right for the child within the paradigm (CC or not) that works for your family.

 

I encourage you to count the cost carefully so that you don't over commit. 

Thank you so much for this!  You must have been in my head, because I was thinking all of these thoughts last night in bed!  While I know she could handle some aspects of Challenge, I agree; she is just not ready yet.  I had already planned on making next year more rigorous and independent for her and we already talked about it.  I know that even if I have both of them in Found. & Essentials, I will be able to beef her studies up so they aren't doing everything the same.  And I love the idea of outsourcing one class so that she learns to deal with deadlines & such.  She has been doing well with her grammar but she doesn't have a lot of confidence in certain areas, and feels "dumb".  I definitely would not want to perpetuate that by getting her in over her head at this point.

 

2 other things that convinced me to stay with Found. & Essentials were the writing & history.  We spend a lot of time on Explorers and the Pilgrims and didn't get much farther, so my plan was to finish American History next year.  I even was planning on using the book that CC recommends!  As well as IEW's Am. History Theme Based writing!  I hated to have her miss that.  And, after much consideration, I was planning on starting both kids with IEW, so I was bummed to see that CC doesn't use them for Challenge any longer.  All of these things, as well as your comments have helped me realize I need to go with my gut here.

[happyWImom]

 

No personal experience with CC, but I do have experience with MUS and Saxon, and have had a DS who struggled with math and writing, due to mild LDs. Just our situation: I know that a class setting such as a co-op that would have expected more than DS could deliver in those areas would have made him shut down and stop trying, which would defeat the purpose of a co-op class.

 

I think that is VERY wise to not have DD and sibling in the same level, esp. as DD has already expressed distress over the idea of being in the same "grade" or class as younger sibling. Esp. when it is an older sibling who is a late-bloomer or has LDs, it is crucial to have them working with different materials to help the older student relax and focus on learning, instead of a lot of their focus and energy being channeled away into upset and frustratration and feeling "stupid" because younger sibling does the same thing they are doing.

 

Also, I personally think that would be extremely stressful to ask a "late-bloomer" student to step into starting Latin (which she has never had before), PLUS switch away from a math program she is familiar with for a math that is 2 years above her current working level, AND join a class where other students are advanced in math AND have been doing the Latin AND are familiar with the class routine.

 

My biggest concern would be switching math programs. MUS and Saxon are extremely different in presentation, and if your DD has struggled with math and is finally "clicking" with MUS, switching to Saxon could be a huge set-back. The higher levels of Saxon, starting well before Saxon 8/7, become increasingly abstract and non-visual in presentation.

 

A bigger problem is that to it looks like Challenge A would require her to be doing Saxon 8/7. A student would absolutely need to have covered fractions (MUS Epsilon), and decimals and percents (MUS Zeta) at a minimum to be able to move to Saxon 8/7. Those are foundational skills and NOT ones to rush through, or to skip. Over and over, I see parents posting on the high school board about the frustrations resulting from not taking the extra time to make sure the student really GETS the foundational math skills, which are crucial for success in Algebra 1 and the other higher maths.

 

Please, meant gently and with all respect -- do NOT rush / push your student through the math in order to get into a co-op class. I cannot stress this enough, from my own experience with a math struggler. They do NOT learn it faster by pushing. They are on their own unique timetable, and they DO get it -- WHEN you use the materials that click for THEM, and at the pace that allows THEM to absorb it. There is such a big risk of losing a student and making the high school years of math a nightmare by trying to push or rush math in the middle school years. 

 

 

If it were me, when meeting with the Challenge tutor, I'd be asking a lot of questions:

 

- How flexible is CC and/or the tutor -- Would they allow you continue with MUS?

- What DO they do when a student is a late-bloomer? What happens if the student just doesn't "get" the math (or Latin)?

- Since there would only be 5 students, would the tutor be willing to tutor each at their own level, or would s/he just be presenting scripted material?

- Would CC allow DD to use the math period as a separate study hall time and do her own math at her own pace?

 

 

I would talk with DD. She is 12yo, and should have input, as this decision would directly affect her. (Of course, final decisions rest with parents :) ):

 

- If DD has to stay for the math period, how will she feel each week if they are covering topics she is still 2 years away from being ready for? -- Or if she is doing a different math program from everyone else?

- Would you be able to get the Latin materials from the previous levels and work with DD over the summer to get her comfortable with the Latin -- Would she even be willing/interested in doing that?

- How does DD feel about doing CC -- Does DD even WANT to do it? Attitude and willingness is SO important for success in mastering the material at this stage as you move into harder/higher work!

 

 

If it were me, I would be looking long and hard at the pros and cons specifically for DD, and be seriously considering allowing her to work at home and allow her to move ahead at her own pace with the materials that best help her do that -- and just do CC with DS, as it sounds like that would work well for both you and for DS.

 

Just my 2 cents, FWIW! :) BEST of luck as you pray and think through what is best for each student and for your family. Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

I really thank you for your advice regarding Saxon.  Tell me more!

 

MUS is working-as much as any math program could, I guess.  Math is something that doesn't come easy for dd.  She eventually does get the concepts, but certain ones take a while.  Add to the fact that if it doesn't happen instantaneously, she gets mad at me, at math, at Mr. Demme (or whoever) so I'm always wondering what's best for her.  We used Saxon very early on, and I liked it, and she did fine with it, but in those early years it takes soooo long that stupid me ended up switching because I felt like we didn't have the time for it (especially with another child to teach).  So other than K, 1st & part of 2nd, I have no experience with the older years in Saxon.  What about using the DIVE dvd's?  Dd does well with visuals.  We were using TT along with MUS and it went well.  I didn't want to use TT by itself, though because I wanted her to have more written practice, and everyone seems to thing TT isn't as thorough.

 

I totally agree with you about cementing the foundations before moving on.  That's one of the reasons we are behind.  Dd would tend to rush through the math to get it over with, not want to do all of the practice pages, etc....  But I keep explaining that it all builds upon itself and she needs to be solid with the concepts.  

 

While I am happy with the time MUS devotes to each concept, and it has helped dd up until now, I'm just wondering if a spiral approach is better moving forward.  I'm just concerned with the upper math levels, both for dd and for myself!  I have lots of friends who use Saxon and they all are very happy with it.

[happyWImom]

Given what you have outlined, I would be concerned about Challenge A, but wouldn't rule it out.

 

At our former campus, the majority of the students were using a different math program, so the tutor used the Saxon book to pick topics each week but on the checklist only expected that they complete four lessons in whatever program they were using.  We use Saxon, but were usually in a different book or at a different lesson, and that was fine there.

 

For Latin, I'd be concerned about what grammar you've used, but not that she hasn't ever had Latin before.  The Latin in Challenge A goes slowly, but students who haven't had rigorous grammar struggle much more than those who have had no Latin.  If she's used Rod and Staff through grade 5 or so, she should be fine.  My oldest had never done Latin before, and did beautifully.

 

Writing weekly science reports and the Lost Tools assignments challenges some who aren't used to churning out that much writing.

 

At some campuses, there are a good number of 12 y.o. in Foundations and Essentials, or I've also seen where the 12 y.o. serves as an assistant in a younger Foundations class and then takes Essentials.  If you go that way, tell her that Essentials is a multi-level program. When I was an Essentials tutor, I always had 7th graders and sometimes even 8th graders in the class (not sure if they allow that now).

 

One of mine was ready academically for Challenge, but had a hard time emotionally (but did very well). We had some tears at times with it. The other whizzed through it like butter, and probably could have done it the year before if not for the age cut-off.

I know that as of now, there will be an 11yr old girl and possibly a 12yr old in Found. & Essentials (her mom isn't sure if she's ready for Challenge either).  I trust the director, but since there are only 4 signed up for Challenge A (including her son) I'm wondering if she's being overly enthusiastic about dd doing it because it's better to have more in the class for discussion.  She does know dd, so I'm sure she's genuine, but she doesn't have all of our details.  And her ds did do Found. & Essentials this year, so he's prepared.  I don't think she would have had him start Challenge without that base year.

[G5052]

I know that as of now, there will be an 11yr old girl and possibly a 12yr old in Found. & Essentials (her mom isn't sure if she's ready for Challenge either).  I trust the director, but since there are only 4 signed up for Challenge A (including her son) I'm wondering if she's being overly enthusiastic about dd doing it because it's better to have more in the class for discussion.  She does know dd, so I'm sure she's genuine, but she doesn't have all of our details.  And her ds did do Found. & Essentials this year, so he's prepared.  I don't think she would have had him start Challenge without that base year.

 

Yes, my kid that whizzed through Challenge A had six years of Foundations and four years of Essentials.  This was when they allowed 3rd graders to register for it, which they have since backed off from.  So that was a different level of experience entirely.  At that time they weren't as strict about the 12 y.o. rule, but the Director was.  So we had to wait anyway, and thus four years of Essentials.

[purplejackmama]

Hey abrightmom, would live to see your wide, huge, deep literature list to get a student prepared for challenge A. Share, please.

[abrightmom]

Hey abrightmom, would live to see your wide, huge, deep literature list to get a student prepared for challenge A. Share, please.

:coolgleamA:  Oh, I don't have one specific to Challenge A. In fact, you don't NEED a lit list to be prepared for ChA (they only read a few books that could easily be pre-read in summer; the focus of ChA is skills, not lit.) but you do NEED one  :D . Start with the WTM and go from there … I was suggesting to the OP that emphasizing as much reading as possible is a necessary use of time for our kiddos and I'd make sure to leave enough time in my 6th/7th grader's day for in depth reading. 

[Lori D.]

You got some GREAT advice from BTDT moms with actual CC experience on which level of CC to do or not to do with DD from abrightmom and G5052! :)

 

… We used Saxon very early on, and I liked it, and she did fine with it...

 

...I'm just wondering if a spiral approach is better moving forward.

 

Since DD actually was learning from Saxon early on, AND because you want to do CC which uses Saxon, AND you're leaning towards a spiral math for your DD, then I'd say that all points towards trying Saxon again.

 

I'd start this summer with Saxon 5/4 so you don't have any gaps due to the very different scope & sequence of MUS and Saxon. Most likely it will will be largely review, so you can move quickly through a lot of it,  slowing down and taking your time on the lessons that aren't clicking. That would give DD all summer to review, and to get used to doing Saxon, so she'll be ready for 6/5 and new math concepts in the fall.

 

Saxon is set up like most standard classroom math textbooks: the first 1/4 of the book is mostly review of the 

previous year's material; the middle 2/4 of the book is the new concepts for that grade level; and the last 1/4 of the book is actually moving into the NEXT year's main material. That will give you a sense of how to gear your math studies -- be prepared to move very quickly through the first 1/4 of Saxon 5/4, slowing here and there in the middle portions, and really slowing in the last 1/4 of the book.

 

 

… What about using the DIVE dvd's?  Dd does well with visuals.  We were using TT along with MUS and it went well...

 

... I'm just concerned with the upper math levels, both for dd and for myself!

 

… I have lots of friends who use Saxon and they all are very happy with it.

 

So sorry -- I was not clear on what I meant about MUS being visual and Saxon NOT being visual. What I mean is that MUS is CONCRETE in explanation -- not just visual with video lessons, but concretely / tangibly /  physically demonstrating the WHY behind the concept with the manipulatives. In contrast, Saxon is ABSTRACT in explanation; Saxon shows the algorithms -- the steps in solving the equations, but not with physical manipulatives or real-life big picture contexts, which are the visual-concrete explanations of WHY those steps work. A student who is highly visual-spatial in learning style and brain processing is often confused by Saxon -- it is all about trying to memorize a series of steps (and, which steps? and why do those particular steps work anyway?), or memorize formulas and equations, and then try to also memorize which formulas and equations match up to use with which word problems -- all without really understanding the concepts or reasons why a specific equation is used and when.

 

So, while, yes, the Saxon DIVE CD is visual in the sense that it is a video demonstration of the mathematical steps used to solve an equation, it is not visual-concrete in the sense that it is using manipulatives or connecting to real-world examples of how and why this equation works in this particular situation.

 

Does that clarify?

 

It is important to understand what type of explanations your student needs and connects with, because the farther into Saxon you go, the more abstract (non concrete) in explanation it becomes. If your student needs more hand-holding and more visual-concrete explanations, then consider sticking with the TT and MUS combo you are currently using. :)

 

While it's GREAT to get ideas for math programs from other families, I would NEVER make the decision to use a math program for my student with their own unique learning style based on "friends use Saxon and are happy with it." Are their students just like your student? If so, then yes, their experiences can point you to a program that will likely fit for your student. Are their students "mathy", or advanced, or auditory-sequential learners (a learning type that does well with abstract presentation)? Then those would be reasons why their students are working well with Saxon -- but probably not reasons that match your DD and her needs. Just my 2 cents worth! ;)

 

 

… I totally agree with you about cementing the foundations before moving on.  That's one of the reasons we are behind.  Dd would tend to rush through the math to get it over with, not want to do all of the practice pages, etc....  But I keep explaining that it all builds upon itself and she needs to be solid with the concepts...

 

If you go with Saxon, now that DD is older, the rushing may not be a problem. If it is, then, in order to do complete lessons, you and DD can decide together a way of breaking the math into shorter bites. Here are two ideas:

 

1. do two math sessions in the day -- 30-40 minutes in the morning, and another 30-40 minutes in the afternoon to finish the lesson

 

2. work for 45-50 minutes a day; pick up each new day where you left off, and keep moving forward; to complete a program in a year, this will require continuing the math into the summer

 

If DD starts rushing again to just get done and is making a lot of errors, agree together in advance on what is not acceptable, and what the consequence will be. For example, if she dropping to 80-85% for a week or a number of days in a row, everyone knows that means going back and re-doing lessons in order to make sure the concepts are really sticking.

 

Also, important would be giving DD ability to have real input -- to be able to say honestly (not just because one particular topic is hard or not clicking right away ;) ), that she is not understanding Saxon. At this point, she will have had MUS and TT types of instruction, too, to be able to compare. If it's just a single topic that's problematic, try the Saxon DIVE CD. Or, try different explanations -- for example, the free Khan Academy video tutorials. Anyways, getting DD's buy-in and input will be very helpful in making the switch successful.

 

BEST of luck to you and DD, whatever you decide! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[happyWImom]

You got some GREAT advice from BTDT moms with actual CC experience on which level of CC to do or not to do with DD from abrightmom and G5052! :)

 

 

Since DD actually was learning from Saxon early on, AND because you want to do CC which uses Saxon, AND you're leaning towards a spiral math for your DD, then I'd say that all points towards trying Saxon again.

 

I'd start this summer with Saxon 5/4 so you don't have any gaps due to the very different scope & sequence of MUS and Saxon. Most likely it will will be largely review, so you can move quickly through a lot of it,  slowing down and taking your time on the lessons that aren't clicking. That would give DD all summer to review, and to get used to doing Saxon, so she'll be ready for 6/5 and new math concepts in the fall.

 

Saxon is set up like most standard classroom math textbooks: the first 1/4 of the book is mostly review of the 

previous year's material; the middle 2/4 of the book is the new concepts for that grade level; and the last 1/4 of the book is actually moving into the NEXT year's main material. That will give you a sense of how to gear your math studies -- be prepared to move very quickly through the first 1/4 of Saxon 5/4, slowing here and there in the middle portions, and really slowing in the last 1/4 of the book.

 

 

 

So sorry -- I was not clear on what I meant about MUS being visual and Saxon NOT being visual. What I mean is that MUS is CONCRETE in explanation -- not just visual with video lessons, but concretely / tangibly /  physically demonstrating the WHY behind the concept with the manipulatives. In contrast, Saxon is ABSTRACT in explanation; Saxon shows the algorithms -- the steps in solving the equations, but not with physical manipulatives or real-life big picture contexts, which are the visual-concrete explanations of WHY those steps work. A student who is highly visual-spatial in learning style and brain processing is often confused by Saxon -- it is all about trying to memorize a series of steps (and, which steps? and why do those particular steps work anyway?), or memorize formulas and equations, and then try to also memorize which formulas and equations match up to use with which word problems -- all without really understanding the concepts or reasons why a specific equation is used and when.

 

So, while, yes, the Saxon DIVE CD is visual in the sense that it is a video demonstration of the mathematical steps used to solve an equation, it is not visual-concrete in the sense that it is using manipulatives or connecting to real-world examples of how and why this equation works in this particular situation.

 

Does that clarify?

 

It is important to understand what type of explanations your student needs and connects with, because the farther into Saxon you go, the more abstract (non concrete) in explanation it becomes. If your student needs more hand-holding and more visual-concrete explanations, then consider sticking with the TT and MUS combo you are currently using. :)

 

While it's GREAT to get ideas for math programs from other families, I would NEVER make the decision to use a math program for my student with their own unique learning style based on "friends use Saxon and are happy with it." Are their students just like your student? If so, then yes, their experiences can point you to a program that will likely fit for your student. Are their students "mathy", or advanced, or auditory-sequential learners (a learning type that does well with abstract presentation)? Then those would be reasons why their students are working well with Saxon -- but probably not reasons that match your DD and her needs. Just my 2 cents worth! ;)

 

 

 

 

If you go with Saxon, now that DD is older, the rushing may not be a problem. If it is, then, in order to do complete lessons, you and DD can decide together a way of breaking the math into shorter bites. Here are two ideas:

 

1. do two math sessions in the day -- 30-40 minutes in the morning, and another 30-40 minutes in the afternoon to finish the lesson

 

2. work for 45-50 minutes a day; pick up each new day where you left off, and keep moving forward; to complete a program in a year, this will require continuing the math into the summer

 

If DD starts rushing again to just get done and is making a lot of errors, agree together in advance on what is not acceptable, and what the consequence will be. For example, if she dropping to 80-85% for a week or a number of days in a row, everyone knows that means going back and re-doing lessons in order to make sure the concepts are really sticking.

 

Also, important would be giving DD ability to have real input -- to be able to say honestly (not just because one particular topic is hard or not clicking right away ;) ), that she is not understanding Saxon. At this point, she will have had MUS and TT types of instruction, too, to be able to compare. If it's just a single topic that's problematic, try the Saxon DIVE CD. Or, try different explanations -- for example, the free Khan Academy video tutorials. Anyways, getting DD's buy-in and input will be very helpful in making the switch successful.

 

BEST of luck to you and DD, whatever you decide! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Thanks, you've really helped me out with this!  I'm still pondering.  Luckily, believe it or not, I dug through my bins and found an old, 2nd ed. Saxon 5/4 that I got at a garage sale!  I can look at it and have dd look at it to see if it's something that will work for her-yeah!

 

She does need to know how long the math is going to take, though.  It's not just a 20 min get it done thing anymore!  With the MUS & TT combo. she did one first thing, (and TT never took her long) did her R&S and then the MUS.  I usually have her do at least 2-3 prac pgs a day if it's something she knows well, but if it's a new concept, only 1.  It's still been a struggle, because she's so used to having most things come easy, and math doesn't.   Therefore, she absolutely hates it.  

[Lori D.]

Thanks, you've really helped me out with this!  I'm still pondering.  Luckily, believe it or not, I dug through my bins and found an old, 2nd ed. Saxon 5/4 that I got at a garage sale!  I can look at it and have dd look at it to see if it's something that will work for her-yeah!

 

She does need to know how long the math is going to take, though.  It's not just a 20 min get it done thing anymore!  With the MUS & TT combo. she did one first thing, (and TT never took her long) did her R&S and then the MUS.  I usually have her do at least 2-3 prac pgs a day if it's something she knows well, but if it's a new concept, only 1.  It's still been a struggle, because she's so used to having most things come easy, and math doesn't.   Therefore, she absolutely hates it.  

 

Totally understand! You might look into a math tutor who connects with DD and how she learns -- that might make a WORLD of difference in ease of understanding for her. And often, students who struggle with a subject are more willing to work for someone else than for mom -- I think they often just need mom to BE mom and be the cheerleader/encourager. :)

 

Sadly, yes, math takes longer at the higher levels. The high school levels of math (Algebra 1 and 2, Geometry, Pre-Calc…) often take 60-75 minutes a day for a lesson; some students need as much as 90 min. to 2 hours a day. Not at ALL trying to scare your DD, but perhaps that may help prepare her to start increasing a little bit, or breaking it into 2 sessions, a morning and an afternoon session, if she does better with shorter bursts of concentration…

 

Even in high school, my math struggler could only manage 45-50 min. of concentrated math in a single day, so any lesson that went longer was finished the next day. We did have several summers where he had to just keep going with the math to complete it, but he really understood the trade off, and that he just only had so much math "battery" power in any one day, so it wasn't really that horrible. Besides, most of his friends were doing a similar thing with math -- working into the summer, so he didn't feel stupid or like the only one. ;)

 

Another thing you may want to be doing is researching and thinking ahead to what math might be the best fit for DD for high school, if Saxon turns out to not be working so well. Lial's BCM (Basic College Math) for Algebra 1, and Forester Algebra 1 are solid, traditional programs. I love Jacobs Algebra because it is very gentle incremental steps; it is mastery-based with review in every chapter. If your DD needs something more visual and interactive, Kinetic Textbooks might be a good fit. Anyways, when you get closer to the time, you can post on the high school board for ideas. :)

[happyWImom]

Totally understand! You might look into a math tutor who connects with DD and how she learns -- that might make a WORLD of difference in ease of understanding for her. And often, students who struggle with a subject are more willing to work for someone else than for mom -- I think they often just need mom to BE mom and be the cheerleader/encourager. :)

 

Sadly, yes, math takes longer at the higher levels. The high school levels of math (Algebra 1 and 2, Geometry, Pre-Calc…) often take 60-75 minutes a day for a lesson; some students need as much as 90 min. to 2 hours a day. Not at ALL trying to scare your DD, but perhaps that may help prepare her to start increasing a little bit, or breaking it into 2 sessions, a morning and an afternoon session, if she does better with shorter bursts of concentration…

 

Even in high school, my math struggler could only manage 45-50 min. of concentrated effort in a single sitting, so any lesson that went longer was finished the next day. We did have several summers where he had to just keep going with the math to complete it, but he really understood the trade off, and that he just only had so much math "battery" power in any one day, so it wasn't really that horrible. Besides, most of his friends were doing a similar thing with math -- working into the summer, so he didn't feel stupid or like the only one. ;)

 

Another thing you may want to be doing is researching and thinking ahead to what math might be the best fit for DD for high school, if Saxon turns out to not be working so well. Lial's BCM (Basic College Math) for Algebra 1, and Forester Algebra 1 are solid, traditional programs. I love Jacobs Algebra because it is very gentle incremental steps; it is mastery-based with review in every chapter. If your DD needs something more visual and interactive, Kinetic Textbooks might be a good fit. Anyways, when you get closer to the time, you can post on the high school board for ideas. :)

That's funny you mentioned researching ahead for high school math, because that's just what I did last night!  I saw a thread on here where people were talking about MUS not being rigorous enough in the higher levels, how people have made it worked & added to it.  I did see someone's thread who said that starting in Epsilon they also added some of Singapore 4a/b, to Zeta, Sing. 5, and so on.  That might be an option and make me feel a little better.  Or, continuing with TT.  I like the math drills that Saxon does, and their mental math for each lesson as well as the spiral aspect of it.  I also keep thinking of "what is going to be challenging & rigorous?"  Then, I came to the realization that maybe for her I shouldn't be worried or concentrating on rigorous right now.  A tutor or outsourcing her math class sounds great, but we live in a rural area, so I'm not sure.  I would have to figure something out.  I would be thrilled to have her be accountable to someone else for math, believe me.  Just not sure how to make that happen.

[QuirkyKapers]

Is there a possiblity that your son and daughter could be in separate classes for foundations?  Something that could make the program, Foundations, more challenging for your dd would be to have her work toward Memory Master.  Of course, if your son is motivated, he could work toward that as well.  If he isn't, that would be something that would differentiate their learning levels.  Also, in regards to Essentials, you can have your daughter do more work on her papers than your son.  Again, this could help create difference in their levels.  FWIW, I waited until my ds was 13 before he went into CH A and he had 4 years Foundations and Essentials.  I don't regret it.  The last year he did Foundations, he wanted to work toward Memory Master and did all the work himself with me just giving him the resources.  It was a great way for him to get used to taking responsibility for his learning. 

[happyWImom]

Is there a possiblity that your son and daughter could be in separate classes for foundations?  Something that could make the program, Foundations, more challenging for your dd would be to have her work toward Memory Master.  Of course, if your son is motivated, he could work toward that as well.  If he isn't, that would be something that would differentiate their learning levels.  Also, in regards to Essentials, you can have your daughter do more work on her papers than your son.  Again, this could help create difference in their levels.  FWIW, I waited until my ds was 13 before he went into CH A and he had 4 years Foundations and Essentials.  I don't regret it.  The last year he did Foundations, he wanted to work toward Memory Master and did all the work himself with me just giving him the resources.  It was a great way for him to get used to taking responsibility for his learning. 

The director was talking about possibly having a separate class for the older kids, because my dd and at least 3 others at this point will be 12 & doing Foundations.

 

Yes, I was thinking having her do Memory Master would be good for her.

 

It's good to hear from the people that waited until their dc were a litter older to do Challenge A-I've been reading lots of blogs as well as getting input from others who've waited and it just reinforces my decision.

[AmyinMD]

My two oldest girls do the Challenge program.  I had my oldest dd do Challenge A at 13.5 (8th grade) and it worked out great for her.  Initially she really wanted to start with B but they wound up not having enough for a class that year and she has mild dyslexia so it worked out that she was one of the older students in the class.  She will do Challenge 2 next year as an 11th grader.   Challenge 1 has been the most challenging year so far due to the amount of reading and projects involved.  

 

My second dd started A as a young 12 year old.  She seemed a little old for Foundations that year and since her older sister really liked Challenge she was eager to do it too.  The first year we did CC only my oldest did  Challenge A.  I didn't do Foundations with my younger children.  My son with ASD was still home that year and they were going to require that he be registered for Foundations.  He is low functioning and nonverbal and I didn't want to spend the money for him to attend the Foundations class so we didn't do it.  I know now that my dd says she wishes she'd done a year of Foundations but had we waited a year I'm not sure if she would have liked it so much.  She did B this year and her class has been filled to 12 both years so there are lots of kids to interact with.  Had she done A this year it would have been 5 kids counting her (3 boys and 2 girls) and now the only girl is leaving so B next year only has 3 boys registered.    She is signed up for Challenge I for fall and it has also filled to 12 already.   Not that I'd pick a level based on class enrollment but I don't think my dd would enjoy it as much if she was the only girl in her class.   The one girl that is in A this year is leaving for Challenge B in another community because that class has other girls in it.  

 

My 2nd dd is now in 8th grade and is still working on MUS Zeta.  She does well in all subjects aside from math.  Math is really difficult for her and we have tried a few different programs but she does the best with MUS.  We do not use Saxon and it is not a problem with the Challenge program.  Most of the kids are not at the same spot on math.  Usually there is some kind of review with working problems together.  The first year I bought the Saxon book but my oldest dd really never needed it so we no longer buy the Saxon books and just work on math at home.  The review there is just good practice.   If you have a math program that works I wouldn't switch it just for the Challenge program.  

 

 

 

[happyWImom]

My two oldest girls do the Challenge program.  I had my oldest dd do Challenge A at 13.5 (8th grade) and it worked out great for her.  Initially she really wanted to start with B but they wound up not having enough for a class that year and she has mild dyslexia so it worked out that she was one of the older students in the class.  She will do Challenge 2 next year as an 11th grader.   Challenge 1 has been the most challenging year so far due to the amount of reading and projects involved.  

 

My second dd started A as a young 12 year old.  She seemed a little old for Foundations that year and since her older sister really liked Challenge she was eager to do it too.  The first year we did CC only my oldest did  Challenge A.  I didn't do Foundations with my younger children.  My son with ASD was still home that year and they were going to require that he be registered for Foundations.  He is low functioning and nonverbal and I didn't want to spend the money for him to attend the Foundations class so we didn't do it.  I know now that my dd says she wishes she'd done a year of Foundations but had we waited a year I'm not sure if she would have liked it so much.  She did B this year and her class has been filled to 12 both years so there are lots of kids to interact with.  Had she done A this year it would have been 5 kids counting her (3 boys and 2 girls) and now the only girl is leaving so B next year only has 3 boys registered.    She is signed up for Challenge I for fall and it has also filled to 12 already.   Not that I'd pick a level based on class enrollment but I don't think my dd would enjoy it as much if she was the only girl in her class.   The one girl that is in A this year is leaving for Challenge B in another community because that class has other girls in it.  

 

My 2nd dd is now in 8th grade and is still working on MUS Zeta.  She does well in all subjects aside from math.  Math is really difficult for her and we have tried a few different programs but she does the best with MUS.  We do not use Saxon and it is not a problem with the Challenge program.  Most of the kids are not at the same spot on math.  Usually there is some kind of review with working problems together.  The first year I bought the Saxon book but my oldest dd really never needed it so we no longer buy the Saxon books and just work on math at home.  The review there is just good practice.   If you have a math program that works I wouldn't switch it just for the Challenge program.  

Thank you so much for this!  It helps so much to hear from moms who've had kids go through this & find out about their experiences!  It's especially reassuring to hear about the math.  My dd is so self-conscious and upset that she's "behind".  My main concern is that she understand everything, and I want to make sure her math foundation is solid without rushing through, but she sees differently.  I know that switching yet again will only slow us down and probably confuse her, so we are happy to be sticking with MUS.  We'll be doing it through the summer, so that will help keep her fresh, as well as move her along without doing it too quickly.