Seeing Stars vs. Barton

[Jenn in CA]

Hi all. Can someone tell me how these two programs compare?

 

A personal update: I ordered the LIPS manual used thru Amazon, and am looking forward to that with my 6yo. I have Barton and am using that with my 5yo (the one who doesn't have suspected auditory issues). After LIPS I'll put the 6yo in Barton unless there is a better reason to continue with LiPS or go with Seeing Stars.

 

I also posted asking about math programs for them, and a friend loaned me Right Start. It is just what we all needed. They are doing fine with subitizing now after some practice and instruction.

[Crimson Wife]

Is Seeing Stars phonics-based? I had the impression it was the other type of reading approach (the name of which escapes me at the moment). The one that Apples & Pears and Dancing Bears uses. M-something?

[Lecka]

Morphographic.

 

But it is not like it is not phonics, it is just an extra strategy that goes along with phonics.  Imo.

 

I think -- you are just starting Lips.  Maybe it is too soon to say.  I think you might need to see how she does.  

 

I think when you get a little farther into Lips, you will see -- "okay, things are clicking."  Or you will see "it is slow going but progress is being made."  

 

You will see what seems to be harder for her.

 

But ---- I have used approaches from Seeing Stars (not the actual program, but I have done speed drills with another program for practicing recognizing patterns).

 

My son needs like -- explicit instruction, and he needs practice to build fluency with the patterns he is learning in his explicit instruction.

 

So -- to me it is not very "one or the other."  

 

But if you see that maybe there are not both weaknesses as you move on -- there is that.

 

I feel like ----- when you get a little farther in Lips, you will be able to know more about what your daughter is doing and what you think will be a better fit.  

 

Bottom line they are both quality programs with good reputations.

 

I have read the descriptions of Seeing Stars from their page, I have also seen videos of teachers using Seeing Stars with a small group of kids so that is where I have copied some elements.  The videos were from readingrockets.org but they have changed their website and it is hard to find videos again.  

 

Honestly -- based on my son, I would not switch to Seeing Stars from Lips, I would go to Barton.  UNLESS she was just picking things up very quickly, as concepts, and able to sound out (do the process of sounding out) very well ---- but was not moving on to fluently reading the word.  He needed to stay at sounding out -- he just needed it, then after he was solid we could practice patterns with speed drills (this is very like how they do flash cards in seeing stars, I have done it with Abecedarian and my wiley blevins book ------ they are included as a morphological strategy to use as needed).  (If you can see the videos, they have kids closing their eyes and picturing the words and air-writing them, things like that -- very multisensory ------ not like "oh it is so so different from the other multisensory programs" imo.)  

 

But if you see her moving a little faster with the concepts but not remembering the words -- I think that is when to look at Seeing Stars.  I never saw that, lol, but it is a thing.

 

Have you read Overcoming Dyslexia?  Where she talks about sounding out a word multiple times and then slowly becoming fluent with that word?  And that happening with patterns also?  That is the place that Seeing Stars is focusing on.  That is for *after* words are correctly sounded out with blending.  So to me I look for that order, and I can see trouble at both places, but I focus on what needs to be focused on.  It is not all at once, it is like -- for some sounds he is at one point, for others he is at a further point.

 

(I have not used Barton past Level 1 but I think it would have been great, I just wanted to get him caught up to public school -- I started working with him the summer before 1st grade and wanted him to not have to be in reading pull-out anymore.  Just my situation.)

 

 

 

[merry gardens]

It's hard to compare Seeing Stars with Barton because they are very different. I use mainly Barton but I've used portions of Seeing Stars.  If I was going to use only one, it would be Barton.   

 

Barton- It's scripted and includes the teacher training cd's, plus Susan Barton offers phone support.  With a child who is severely dyslexic who is being taught by a parent w/o a background in teaching someone with dyslexia, this scripting and teacher training is extremely valuable! If you are familiar with LiPS you have seen some scripting, but the script for Barton goes way beyond that.  At the end of each level there's an optional test to give so that you can be sure the child is learning to master the material.  The tiles are larger and more colorful and more comprehensive than the LiPS tiles.  The printed material is larger print for students without being in any way baby-ish. With Barton, the student and tutor create their own flashcards for sight words on an as needed basis.  The tutor support materials and some other items available are free to those who have purchased the level and can be printed at home. (This includes some fluency drills and optional weekly spelling test.)  If a child has vowel confusion, the Barton system is very good because it works on short sounds extensively before introducing various other vowel sounds.  Delaying the introduction of "silent e" and various other letter combinations helps reinforce learning to look at words from left to right.

 

Seeing Stars (and Lindamood Bell products in general)--very colorful and attractive materials that seem generally geared towards younger students.  For example, Ivan the Cat, is a clever cartoon character that appears in many of Lindamood-Bell's products. The flashcards are already made and available for purchase, but the cardstock is thinner than I'd like. Some of the materials can be harder to keep organized, for example there's lots and lots of separate parts, like flashcards, that a toddler can wreck. (I mention that for those with younger children.) The workbooks explain the meaning of simple words and that can be helpful for some children.  Many words are treated as "sight words" when they can be sounded out, but the goal is for fluency and speed.  Teaching common words by sight can boost a child into reading quicker but I suspect that sometimes undermines teaching the child to look at words left-to-right. There is virtually no scripting in the older manuals I have.  It leaves the tutor to figure the program out on her own or go to one of the expensive LMB training workshops.

 

 

[merry gardens]

Oh, also, if you are using LiPS, you may not need to start Barton with level one.  I bought Barton first and then discovered my child needed LiPS, so I only took LiPS up to the point were Susan Barton said he needed to be before we could start her program. But the first level or two or three of Barton covers much of the same material that's in the later parts of LiPS. Barton teaches that material using some slightly different techniques from LiPS. If you decide to go with Barton after using LiPS, definitely give them a call to discuss and test for what Barton level your child should start!

 

 

[Lecka]

I am glad there is someone who has used both programs :)  I have just read "about" Seeing Stars and seen the videos.  

 

Something about my son -- he does not like flashcards.  He does better when the format is reading words on a page -- it is easier for him.  So fluency sheets or drill sheets are a better format for him than flashcards.  (Drill sheets we have used or I have made, focus on 8 words at a time, 12 after he got older and farther along, and they are written in boxes that are on a piece of paper.  Or, just listed without boxes.  He seems to be fine with boxes or without.)  

 

In the videos I saw, the flashcards are being held up by the teacher in front of a group of about 4-6 kids.  So -- for that setting and use flashcards are better, but I don't think it has to be flashcards if it is one-to-one and you know they are disliked.  

 

Another option I have not done, but read about..... you can have a flash (?) program where words show up on a computer screen, and you can set how many seconds they stay up.  It is something some kids might like better, and it might be easier to have a large font sometimes.  It has not appealed to me but it would be another way to practice.  

 

But I really agree with Merry Gardens, I think that kind of practice is only if needed, and for words that the child can easily sound out.  

 

I would not do anything that might undermine sounding out.  I think there is a need for a lot of patience, that parents are able to have.  If it is a school and the teacher is supposed to increase the number of sight words read correctly over a period of 3 months -------- that is the goal.  A lot of times that is a good goal, but if it would be a better goal to have the child keep improving in sounding out words from left to right ------- well, parents can do that at home.  We don't have to be like, "well, we had better do what is necessary to meet this IEP goal" even if it is not what is best for reading words from left to right and applying that, which imo has to be the number one top priority.  

 

When my son got to a point where he was ready for sight words (like the Dolch list), he learned them as much as possible in context of a reading program as words that followed a pattern and could be sounded out.  But there are just some pesky words that way.  But the last thing you want is to be working on Dolch words and have that undermine sounding out words the rest of the time.  

 

It is extremely frustrating that these "easy" words, that are so common in so many readers, are such difficult ones to learn.  

 

It can be very confusing, too, to have an earlier learner who is learning solid decoding, and then there are Dolch words that do not behave in ways an early learner has covered, but then -- there they are in early readers.  

 

But when it is time for sight words, your daughter may not have a hard time!  That may be something that comes more easily for her.  I also think -- as far as Seeing Stars, it is usually older children who are still sounding out and sounding out, and it is a problem.  She will have a year at least when it is acceptable in every way to be sounding out (instead of recognizing words).  I think.  I am not as aware of Seeing Stars being used as a primary program (I think Barton is a primary program) as much as more remediation for kids who have been through other reading programs and have already been taught the phonics and stuff.  I could be wrong about that -- but that is my impression of it.  

 

For me, a lot of this has to do with stages of reading, though.  From Overcoming Dyslexia, and other things I have read in the same vein (Phonics A-Z by Wiley Blevins, which is a good book, too) kids need to first decode a word several times, then after that, they start to recognize the word.  But I want for my son to be able to decode words that are possible to decode (with the few exceptions of words like "of" and "was" that can be so hard despite being short and common).  First, I think he does better that way (easier for him than straight memory) and second, I think it is the way that better readers read, and I want that for him.  

 

Great news that Right Start is a good fit!!!!!!  Yay!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree with Merry Gardens that just for the ability to sound out if someone did LiPS extensively first, they might not need Barton Level 1.  I would caution against skipping the level however.  It might work o.k. to skip it, but I agree I would check with Susan Barton first.  It is a very useful way to introduce how the student and the teacher effectively interact, even if the basic sound associations and separation are no longer needed.  Putting those steps for interaction between parent and student into place before tackling mastery of rules application in later levels, where lessons become a lot more intense, would be a lot easier, IMHO.  I realized halfway through Level 2 with DD that I should have been a lot more systematic and consistent about implementing the structured interaction between parent and student that is started in Level 1 of Barton and continues throughout the levels.  Once I went back and worked hard to get us both following the scripted interaction (hand gestures, word short cuts, etc.) the lessons started moving faster and more smoothly.  It became a much more efficient process.  DD gets very distracted and confused with too much talking so the removal of a lot of word usage from the lesson was a tremendous help.  

[Lecka]

I looked more at Seeing Stars, and I was wrong, they do have a Tier 1 -- general instruction level.  I am not sure if it is used as a primary reading program or a supplementary program, though.  I don't know if it is a complete program or if it is targeting certain things.  

 

If someone locally says they do it in the schools -- I think I would be pleased.  But I don't think it is something where you need to do what the school is doing.  

 

But I also have a good impression of it, and especially for certain goals.  

 

But I really think -- as you move along, you will see more if your daughter has some strengths and moves through some things quickly, or if there are things that are harder and you feel like looking for a supplement.  Then when you see what you need -- that can help you to target programs and evaluate programs based on how you think they will relate to your daughter.  

 

So I think it is good to learn about different programs, but it is good to be patient too in choosing things.  

 

I think that sometimes kids can have testing done that pinpoints a good program, too, if you might do testing.  I have not done testing with my son except he has had speech therapy and OT, and we have ruled out ADHD.  So I don't know as much about that -- but it could be an option.