A new question for Claire

[Stirsmommy]

Ok so that should probably say Claire the all knowing. I am looking ahead for ds and I am wondering if you have a suggestion at what sort of math would be a good choice for him. We will be working on automaticity with number this summer but I know I get to see Math U See and Rightstart at the convention in a little over a month. I know I need to research before I go and see the pretties. Is there something like RR only for numbers. He understands the concepts of adding and subtracting and can show how it works with manipulatives but seems sometimes perplexed with the written equation. He is better with numbers though than words. We were using lifepac math but I don't know that that is the best fit. We have been trying so hard with reading and writing that math hasn't been a focus. I want to gradually start adding it in once we get our feet under us again.

Thanks for the help

Melissa

[Claire]

Ok so that should probably say Claire the all knowing.

:) Could you please convince my dh of this? I've been working on him for years, but I don't think he's bought into it yet......:D

 

I know that a couple of parents have said their dyslexic children were very responsive to RightStart. They had tried more traditional programs first. So, I usually recommend RightStart (which I don't think was available yet when we were starting out in math).

 

We used the old version of MUS Foundations, and that was very good at developing concepts, but it did not have the degree of repetition my dd needed to develop computation skills. This really showed up on the Iowa testing (high in math concepts, low in computation). It sounds as if MUS has corrected this problem with their newer edition. I used the Singapore Math books for levels 1 and 2 with my dd to develop her computation skills after the Iowa testing. They were really *wonderful* supplements for this. I thought I was home free with Singapore Math, but somewhere in the middle of Level 3 it started going too fast and not explaining in enough detail for my dd.

 

I do regret neglecting math through 3rd grade with my dd, as I was so worried about her reading. If you don't mind the daily one-on-one of math that RightStart uses (its daily lesson plans would have worked out really well for me), then that's the one I would probably give the most consideration to. MUS would be my second choice.

 

My dd needed an additional boost to memorize her math facts. When she was 11yo she was pretty solid on addition and subtraction, but very poor in multiplication and division. QuarterMile Math software was invaluable for us to develop math fact fluency. However, I think one of the reasons it worked for us was because I sat with my dd and did the keyboarding for her. It took us 4 months of 10 minutes per day every day to get dd solid on her math facts this way, and then she needed to continue with QMM on her own twice a week for an additional year before she stopped "losing" math facts.

[Stirsmommy]

Well I am not good at convincing grown up males but my 7yo thinks girls know everything. He says "if you don't know something ask a girl, they know it all." We have no idea where that came from and when asked he says he has know idea who told him he just knows it. Boy, does his future wife have it made.

Thanks for the info. Right now for me lesson plans or even a here do this sort of thing is a godsend. I think I am so concerned about what he needs that I can't quite focus on the detail of how to do it.

[siloam]

My dd needed an additional boost to memorize her math facts. When she was 11yo she was pretty solid on addition and subtraction, but very poor in multiplication and division. QuarterMile Math software was invaluable for us to develop math fact fluency. However, I think one of the reasons it worked for us was because I sat with my dd and did the keyboarding for her. It took us 4 months of 10 minutes per day every day to get dd solid on her math facts this way, and then she needed to continue with QMM on her own twice a week for an additional year before she stopped "losing" math facts.

 

With Right Start this would not be necessary. You could if you want, :D but not necessary. RS has a variety of games one can play to learn math facts (including multiplication and division) and you can play them as often as you like.

 

Heather

 

[Stirsmommy]

Oh games! He loves games. It is why he is liking RR right now. He says it isn't really work because it is fun. This is good to know.

[siloam]

Oh games! He loves games. It is why he is liking RR right now. He says it isn't really work because it is fun. This is good to know.

 

Melissa,

 

Then you would probably love RS. They review and reinforce most concepts through games.

 

All my kids adore the games, so we play then even with they aren't scheduled.

 

Heather

[Stirsmommy]

Great! With the reading struggles of the last year before our diagnosis anything that seems like learning is work. Therefore it is to be dreaded. It is so nice for him to look forward to the reading reflex, even the writing that I want to carry that on into the math which also suffers from the visual issues.

[Pensguys]

A side note about RightStart....I used this with my dyslexic son for K and 1st. We started level C this year and he got bogged down with subtraction. The dr says he probably would and she was right to some extent.

 

RS can be really good IF, IF, IF, you play the games EVERY DAY. That was what I think my son needed but we didn't want to do. I used the fact worksheets in RS too, but what my ds needed was written fact practice every day over and over and over again with the same problems until they are ingrained.

 

I've taught RS with an older child with no learning issues so I'm familiar with how to present the material. I switched over to Bob Jones for my dyslexic son and had to back up a bit because of the need to nail down the subtraction. It has been good for him to do this.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if RS doesn't work for you (and I'm really hoping it does, it is a GREAT program) then there are other alternatives too....AND to just give you a heads up about making sure you play those games.

[debbiec]

I have been seriously looking at RightStart, but yesterday I read some really good reviews how great it is for mental math, similar to Singapore. And I understand mental math is needed. But, my concern is writing and seeing the facts as Penny mentioned. I know it comes with worksheets, but are there plenty? Do any of them allow for math facts?

I know I could /add/ additional worksheets from on line for math facts, right? And I could add math facts flash cards as well?

 

I have repeatably been referred to Bob Jones math, but have yet to look at it, because it does focus more on the written math.

 

Another concern I had about RightStart (when someone mentioned on this board a while back) with a manipulative heavy program, at times, some kids don't transfer to paper well. So, back to the worksheets in Right Start ~ is their worksheets for every lesson, or how does that work?

[samba]

Sorry, I didn't get back to you sooner. You asked what math I was using with my ds6 (w/ DS) and the truth is that, right now, I'm not using anything. I'm not sure if this was the case with your son, but my son really struggles with abstract ideas. He just isn't there yet developmentally. So we have to take math very slowly. He can count to 20. He has one-to-one correspondence up to about 8 and everything else is coming along very slowly (painfully so). It's hard to do math when he struggles with questions like "Which is more"? "What comes after"? The math "language" is not there. In that sense, we're doing more of a preschool-paced approach to math. I have RightStart and I will begin Level A with him when I think he is ready. He may progress to B but, realistically, I can't see him staying with RightStart beyond B. Level C can be very abstract, even with manipulatives (in my opinion). The people at RightStart have said the program has been successful with special needs children and I did specifically ask about Down Syndrome. I can only guess how it would work based on my experience using it with my bright, advanced dd8 (we finished Level D and switched to BJU 4). The lower levels are great but you can start getting bogged down the higher the levels go. I have started looking into Shiller Math, which is also Montessori based. I don't know enough about it to comment yet but I have heard good things about it in regard to both special-needs and typical children. I have heard that it is easy to stay put on a concept until the child is ready to move on and repeat lessons in new ways. As far as RightStart, yes, there are worksheets for all the lessons and a lot of facts review sheets. Hope that helps a little.

 

Carolyn

[siloam]

I have been seriously looking at RightStart, but yesterday I read some really good reviews how great it is for mental math, similar to Singapore. And I understand mental math is needed. But, my concern is writing and seeing the facts as Penny mentioned. I know it comes with worksheets, but are there plenty? Do any of them allow for math facts?

I know I could /add/ additional worksheets from on line for math facts, right? And I could add math facts flash cards as well?

 

I have repeatably been referred to Bob Jones math, but have yet to look at it, because it does focus more on the written math.

 

Another concern I had about RightStart (when someone mentioned on this board a while back) with a manipulative heavy program, at times, some kids don't transfer to paper well. So, back to the worksheets in Right Start ~ is their worksheets for every lesson, or how does that work?

 

No there aren't worksheets for math facts, because if you can let your weight down on their philosophy, it isn't needed.

 

For me this is easier to explain with Singapore base 10 than RS base 5, but they are the same basic idea. You only need memorize facts 1-10 for addition and subtraction because you make every math problem into a 10 problem:

 

76 + 26=? Ok I need 4 to make 76 into 80, so I take that from 26:

 

80+22= Now 80 +20 is 100 + the 2 =102.

 

At first this takes longer (especially for us older people) but once you are used to it you can shuffle numbers around in your head very quickly.

 

Same for subtraction:

 

83-39= There are a number of ways to go about this. I would do the 80 and 30 first, so 53-9, now I know 9 is one less than 10, so I think 43 and add back the 1, so the answer is 44.

 

For multiplication or division you simply start with what you know. 9x9=? Pretending I don't automatically know it is 81, and instead going for what most kids do know. 9x5=45 + 9x2=18 +9x2=18 now we have an addition problem 45+18+18= Again I would add all the 10's place first, so 65+8+8= Now I know the two eights are 16, then I mentally add the 10 to 60, so now I have 75+6= I know 5+6 is 11 and mental I add the 10 to 70, so now I have 80+1=81.

 

Though there are games to work on the higher math facts of multiplication. I am not far enough with the program to know if they have any sort of fact sheets for subtraction, multiplication or division. I do know level C has a lot more worksheets that level B. B covers mostly addition while C covers mostly Subtraction and some multiplicaion. The addition games were more than enough to teach the addition facts needed, so I suspect they again just go with games and not fact sheets.

 

With mental math there really isn't a wrong and a right way. It is more about making the problem into one you are more comfortable with.

 

Heather

[Stirsmommy]

No there aren't worksheets for math facts, because if you can let your weight down on their philosophy, it isn't needed.

 

For me this is easier to explain with Singapore base 10 than RS base 5, but they are the same basic idea. You only need memorize facts 1-10 for addition and subtraction because you make every math problem into a 10 problem:

 

76 + 26=? Ok I need 4 to make 76 into 80, so I take that from 26:

 

80+22= Now 80 +20 is 100 + the 2 =102.

 

At first this takes longer (especially for us older people) but once you are used to it you can shuffle numbers around in your head very quickly.

 

Same for subtraction:

 

83-39= There are a number of ways to go about this. I would do the 80 and 30 first, so 53-9, now I know 9 is one less than 10, so I think 43 and add back the 1, so the answer is 44.

 

For multiplication or division you simply start with what you know. 9x9=? Pretending I don't automatically know it is 81, and instead going for what most kids do know. 9x5=45 + 9x2=18 +9x2=18 now we have an addition problem 45+18+18= Again I would add all the 10's place first, so 65+8+8= Now I know the two eights are 16, then I mentally add the 10 to 60, so now I have 75+6= I know 5+6 is 11 and mental I add the 10 to 70, so now I have 80+1=81.

 

Though there are games to work on the higher math facts of multiplication. I am not far enough with the program to know if they have any sort of fact sheets for subtraction, multiplication or division. I do know level C has a lot more worksheets that level B. B covers mostly addition while C covers mostly Subtraction and some multiplicaion. The addition games were more than enough to teach the addition facts needed, so I suspect they again just go with games and not fact sheets.

 

With mental math there really isn't a wrong and a right way. It is more about making the problem into one you are more comfortable with.

 

Heather

 

Oh dear, it appears I need to relearn math too. Is this way better? It seems to me like more steps than to just have the facts. Will this really work better with DS with dyslexia? I am not saying I won't, I am just saying it seems so far from how I taught the older two before they had it ps. Maybe it is just to me that this seems harder.

[siloam]

Oh dear, it appears I need to relearn math too. Is this way better? It seems to me like more steps than to just have the facts. Will this really work better with DS with dyslexia? I am not saying I won't, I am just saying it seems so far from how I taught the older two before they had it ps. Maybe it is just to me that this seems harder.

 

It IS longer, but only at first then it is quicker.

 

I remember first learning it with Singapore and thinking, "why are we doing all these steps?" I am so glad I stuck it out because it is better. While I have always been good at math, I was a finger counter and slow. If anyone asked a math problem I was guaranteed to be one of the last to get the answer. That has vastly improved since learning this way. I no longer count on my fingers and I now have a chance of getting the answer first. :cool:

 

Because the child learns how fluid numbers can be, they also have a better chance of working out an answer to a problem that is a bit beyond them. Because they have learned to move the number into a problem they can do.

 

The difference between Singapore and Right Start is slight. Where Singapore will do 7+8 = as 7+3 +5= 10+5=15 Right Start will do it as 7+8= 5+2+5+3= 10+5=15 They break it into two 5's instead of 10. The difference is very small and both work on maniuplating numbers. Right Start has an edge over Singapore in that it teaches the child to visualize numbers: 6 is 5+1, 7 is 5+2, 8 is 5+3 which also helps the child in working with numbers, breaking them down in their head and finding answers quickly.

 

Heather

 

[Kathy in MD]

supplement a math program with fact practice. (My ds even learned his facts separate of math class.) Of far more concern to me is how well the program teaches why 1+1=2. I still think math facts are important, just that I wouldn't let that be a major factor in selecting a math program.

 

Re: the problem with transferring from manipulatives to paper. Without knowing any of the particulars of the cases you refer to, I would think that there might have been 1 of2 problems. Either the children didn't spend enough time using only manipulatives or they weren't using manipulatives with the written work long enough. I would plan on spending a lot of time on combining manipulatives with written work so the child can make the transfer from the concrete to the abstract. I'm not familiar with RS, but I do understand Montessori. I believe my ds didn't do written math til the 2nd grade. That might be late for Montessori, but then he had LD's.

[debbiec]

Well, I decided not to take on RigthStart for several reasons, one being a base 5 rather than base 10 program. He's already been entrenched in base 10 (and me as well), so I don't want to upset the apple cart.

 

So, I've been looking at Shiller Math. It seems like a modified Motessori to me, but what do I know? I did check out (and just bought) Teaching Montessori in the Home: The School Years. I really like it and think it'll be a good start (we are really lacking in math skills conceptually). But, of course, it's just the bare bones basics and doesn't tell me how to teach money, time, etc. But, I guess that is where you take the same format and design your own from there on, unless of course, I buy Shiller (maybe later). Being familiar with Montessori, do you have an opinion about Shiller Math? Also, do you have any great resources about teaching math using Montessori methods, that you like, particularly about money and time?

 

I've exhausted the internet I believe ~ and have saved some good links with som ideas.

 

Debbie

[Stirsmommy]

I might look at that too. I am just not sure where to go, kwim? Everyone has different opinions and I am worried about getting it from manipulative to paper especially with the vision issue but at the same time I don't want to over do the written with his writing issues beginning to show signs of improvement. For now, until I figure out what to do, we are working on automaticity. Well as soon as I finish reading the book the eye dr gave me so I know how to use the workbook. Then I will have to figure out how to place him in anything. He gets the concepts of math easily but seeing an equation blows him away. Hopefully some training will help with this. The things I do know about his learning style is he loves video based with lots of color and hands on activities. He also loves audio work. We just need to overcome his print phobia!

Melissa