Has anyone used Cindy Marsch's writing classes?

[Rhondabee]

particularly, the progym classes?

 

Since SWB blogged about starting the progym in 9th grade, I've been wondering if these classes would cover that for me.

 

And, if you've read this far, do you think doing the progym would cover *both* writing *and* rhetoric? SWB's blog calls it a writing program, but WTM has students doing the progym in "Rhetoric", with a separate writing program.

 

:confused:

[Jean in Wisc]

particularly, the progym classes?

 

Since SWB blogged about starting the progym in 9th grade, I've been wondering if these classes would cover that for me.

 

And, if you've read this far, do you think doing the progym would cover *both* writing *and* rhetoric? SWB's blog calls it a writing program, but WTM has students doing the progym in "Rhetoric", with a separate writing program.

 

:confused:

 

I signed up for some writing help with Cindy a couple of years ago. Cindy comes highly recommended by everyone I know who has taken her classes. She is one I recommend!

 

As far as the writing program: the progym is made up of writing exercises (a lot of writing!). I decided after doing a number of the levels that I still saw a need for teaching my children how to write the college essay and the other types of writing that I think of as a more "modern" style. Some argue that the progym is all that is necessary--and perhaps a good teacher of the progym could accomplish that. I'm more comfortable doing both--but not at the same time. You have 4 years of high school; you don't have to do both in the same semester.

[Kelli in TN]

My two oldest took a writing class from Cindy live and in person! They complained the whole way through it but they learned a LOT from her.

 

I have actually been considering signing my 13 year old for her online course next year. It won't be the same as live and in person, though.

 

(Oh, Cindy, why did you have to move away? Why could you not stay here in Tennessee until all of my kids graduated?)

[Michelle in MO]

I signed up for some writing help with Cindy a couple of years ago. Cindy comes highly recommended by everyone I know who has taken her classes. She is one I recommend!

 

As far as the writing program: the progym is made up of writing exercises (a lot of writing!). I decided after doing a number of the levels that I still saw a need for teaching my children how to write the college essay and the other types of writing that I think of as a more "modern" style. Some argue that the progym is all that is necessary--and perhaps a good teacher of the progym could accomplish that. I'm more comfortable doing both--but not at the same time. You have 4 years of high school; you don't have to do both in the same semester.

I agree with everything that Jean said here. I signed my girls up for three sessions of Cindy's progymnasmata tutorials; one session at the Beginning level, and two sessions of the Intermediate level. (Cindy states on her website---at least on the older website---that often two-three sessions of Intermediate and Advanced are necessary to complete the entire tutorial.) I thought the sessions went very well, but there was a lot of writing: I scheduled in two hours of writing daily whenever we did one of the progym. tutorials. However, some of that time that was scheduled was due to the fact that both daughters tended to "stare" at the computer, waiting for inspiration, before beginning to write. It helped having someone else set the deadline, kwim? ;) The tutorials did give some more modern-day applications of how to use the progymnasmata, but not an exhaustive study of how to write a modern essay, etc. My girls are in private school this year, and so far they've not had any trouble adapting to the more modern type of writing that is taught at this school.

 

I also had Cindy do evaluations of their Omnibus essays last year (we did the Summa essays in Omnibus, not the progymnasmata writing exercises that Omnibus assigns), and I also used Cindy's services to help me prepare for the two essays that I had to write for my GRE last March.

 

Cindy comes highly recommended by just about everyone: SWB, Wes Callihan, and many other classical educators. She is very kind in her evaluations, but also very precise with teaching grammar and logical thinking throughout the writing exercises.

 

HTH!

[Rhondabee]

So, if the progym classes are 6-weeks, then maybe we should start with one a year? I'm thinking that would give us some "progym" writing and some "modern" writing each year.

 

Or, would it be more advantageous to do *all* the progym back-to-back? If so, do you think we should do the modern or the progym first?

 

Thanks for all your help! This is so hard to wrap my brain around...

[Jean in Wisc]

So, if the progym classes are 6-weeks, then maybe we should start with one a year? I'm thinking that would give us some "progym" writing and some "modern" writing each year.

 

Or, would it be more advantageous to do *all* the progym back-to-back? If so, do you think we should do the modern or the progym first?

 

Thanks for all your help! This is so hard to wrap my brain around...

 

I would not do it all back-to-back. It gets harder as you go through it, and doing some of it as the child matures is an advantage--at least it was for my kids.

 

Jean

[Michelle in MO]

I don't think you'd want to do all the progym at once, either with Cindy Marsch or Classical Writing or whoever. In fact, the progym. are designed to be completed sequentially, according to the age and maturity of the child.

 

Depending upon the age of your children, I'd say one tutorial per year with Cindy would be sufficient, and you really need to schedule in extra time during the school day for writing. We did three in one year, but I admit that that was a lot! Jackie in AR hit upon what I thought was a good plan: cover one book in the Classical Writing series, and then have her children do one of Cindy's tutorials covering the same material.

 

As far as combining the progym. and modern writing, I'm not quite sure how to advise you there. The fact that we covered the progym. quite a bit and fewer models of modern-day writing has somehow worked out well for my girls. But---both of them are naturally good writers, anyway, so that may have made a difference with them.

 

Cindy does advise on her website that the upper levels of the Intermediate progym. and definitely the Advanced progym. course should wait until the child is at least 15 years old. At that point, age and maturity do play into the child being able to understand the directions and the subtleties about which they are expected to write.

 

HTH!

[Colleen in NS]

I still saw a need for teaching my children how to write the college essay and the other types of writing that I think of as a more "modern" style.

 

I'm thinking that would give us some "progym" writing and some "modern" writing each year.

 

The fact that we covered the progym. quite a bit and fewer models of modern-day writing has somehow worked out well for my girls.

 

What exactly is involved in "modern" writing? Is it different from "rhetoric" writing (like the Corbett book and other rhetoric/writing books in WTM)?

 

Would you ideally cover "progym," "modern," and "rhetoric" writing sometime in the last 5 or so years of schooling? Or does modern and rhetoric involve the same types of writing?

[Rhondabee]

Colleen,

 

Obviously, I'm not truly "in the know" - LOL! But, if you'll look at the Rhetoric section (the actual class "Rhetoric") in WTM, you'll see the first year is "Rulebook for Arguments" and "Oxford" Guide to Writing. These would be modern forms of "essay" writing. Then, there's a Rhetoric book, and *part* of the Rhetoric book has "progymnasmata" exercises.

 

The progymnasmata were writing exercises designed in Ancient times to teach various methods of written communication. You can read more about them at Cindy Marsch's site (or Classical Writing):

 

http://writingassessment.com/index.php?pr=Progymnasmata

 

It's my understanding that the "modern" writing (descriptive essay, persuasive essay, narrative, etc. - basically what you learn in R&S) are all derived from these progym exercises (but I could be wrong).

 

One reason why I have never been able to keep going with CW or Classical Composition is because I knew in the back of my mind that SWB had it planned out for high school - when grammar and handwriting wouldn't be hindrances to expression, and after most of the modern writing had been covered. But, on her blog, she has a plan starting the progym in 9th grade:

 

http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/?p=187

 

I guess what is confusing me is that she is calling this a "writing" plan, whereas in WTM the progym is in the "rhetoric" section. (I'm sure if she's reading this, she's rolling her eyes at my dense-ness - LOL!) I would be really excited to learn that I could do, say, just the grammar out of Abeka (or the reinforcement books of Analytical Grammar) combined with the first three progym for 9th grade and basically be getting "writing" and "rhetoric" done with one stone, so to speak.

 

Of course, my whole high school plan seems out-of-whack because ds was not retaining Introductory Logic, so after my surgury, I dropped it. I plan to do Traditional Logic next year (9th grade - which is the way the current edition suggests doing it), and so I'm not sure what that's going to mean for "rhetoric" for us, anyway.

 

I'll be so glad when the new edition is out!

[Rhondabee]

Oh, this is encouraging! I really don't care if he complains ~ but I am tired of *always* being the one he complains about - LOL!

 

Did you by any chance use the essays from SMARR, and have Cindy grade those individually?

 

Thanks!

[Rhondabee]

Thanks, Jean & Michelle! This was very helpful!

[Kelli in TN]

Oh, this is encouraging! I really don't care if he complains ~ but I am tired of *always* being the one he complains about - LOL!

 

Did you by any chance use the essays from SMARR, and have Cindy grade those individually?

 

Thanks!

 

Was this to me? I always have a hard time figuring out what post responds to what on here!!

 

I will assume it was to me!

 

No, we did not use SMARR back then. When they took her class she assigned the topics. They almost always had an in class essay and another to write at home. Those timed in class essays were great prep for college writing.

[Michelle in MO]

What exactly is involved in "modern" writing? Is it different from "rhetoric" writing (like the Corbett book and other rhetoric/writing books in WTM)?

 

Would you ideally cover "progym," "modern," and "rhetoric" writing sometime in the last 5 or so years of schooling? Or does modern and rhetoric involve the same types of writing?

The Classical Writing Message Boards give some good examples of modern-day writing that have been patterned after the progymnasmata, plus some useful information on the differences between the two methods.

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen,

 

Obviously, I'm not truly "in the know" - LOL! But, if you'll look at the Rhetoric section (the actual class "Rhetoric") in WTM, you'll see the first year is "Rulebook for Arguments" and "Oxford" Guide to Writing. These would be modern forms of "essay" writing. Then, there's a Rhetoric book, and *part* of the Rhetoric book has "progymnasmata" exercises.

 

The progymnasmata were writing exercises designed in Ancient times to teach various methods of written communication. You can read more about them at Cindy Marsch's site (or Classical Writing):

 

http://writingassessment.com/index.php?pr=Progymnasmata

 

It's my understanding that the "modern" writing (descriptive essay, persuasive essay, narrative, etc. - basically what you learn in R&S) are all derived from these progym exercises (but I could be wrong).

 

One reason why I have never been able to keep going with CW or Classical Composition is because I knew in the back of my mind that SWB had it planned out for high school - when grammar and handwriting wouldn't be hindrances to expression, and after most of the modern writing had been covered. But, on her blog, she has a plan starting the progym in 9th grade:

 

http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/?p=187

 

I guess what is confusing me is that she is calling this a "writing" plan, whereas in WTM the progym is in the "rhetoric" section. (I'm sure if she's reading this, she's rolling her eyes at my dense-ness - LOL!) I would be really excited to learn that I could do, say, just the grammar out of Abeka (or the reinforcement books of Analytical Grammar) combined with the first three progym for 9th grade and basically be getting "writing" and "rhetoric" done with one stone, so to speak.

 

Of course, my whole high school plan seems out-of-whack because ds was not retaining Introductory Logic, so after my surgury, I dropped it. I plan to do Traditional Logic next year (9th grade - which is the way the current edition suggests doing it), and so I'm not sure what that's going to mean for "rhetoric" for us, anyway.

 

I'll be so glad when the new edition is out!

 

Rhonda, you're right on my wavelength (which is why I clicked on this thread in the first place - you wonder about the same things I wonder about :lol:). I'll have to have a closer read of this (and Michelle in MO's website rec) later when I can think. I do have all those WTM rec'd high school books already, plus d'Angelo's book. I just haven't wrapped my head around them all yet and what people meant by modern writing. I did read SWB's blog about that, and it threw me off, just like you. Maybe I'll get more clarity by listening to her middle and high school writing lectures at the conference.

[Colleen in NS]

It's my understanding that the "modern" writing (descriptive essay, persuasive essay, narrative, etc. - basically what you learn in R&S) are all derived from these progym exercises (but I could be wrong).

 

But, on her blog, she has a plan starting the progym in 9th grade:

 

http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/?p=187

 

I guess what is confusing me is that she is calling this a "writing" plan, whereas in WTM the progym is in the "rhetoric" section.

 

So - modern writing instruction is derived from progym instruction?

 

And....you're wondering if R&S/Weston/Kane still figure in to the blog "writing" plan (that we see as the partial "rhetoric" plan)?

 

Maybe I'll just think in my mind that R&S (all the way to level 10 in 10th grade) covers modern writing, Weston/Kane/Corbett cover rhetoric, and d'Angelo expands on the progym section of Corbett's book. Now - how do you put it all into a 4 year plan? Or do you? :D

[Rhondabee]

Was this to me? I always have a hard time figuring out what post responds to what on here!!

 

I will assume it was to me!

 

No, we did not use SMARR back then. When they took her class she assigned the topics. They almost always had an in class essay and another to write at home. Those timed in class essays were great prep for college writing.

 

 

I had forgotten about timed essays. Thanks for mentioning them!

[Michelle in MO]

So - modern writing instruction is derived from progym instruction?

 

And....you're wondering if R&S/Weston/Kane still figure in to the blog "writing" plan (that we see as the partial "rhetoric" plan)?

 

Maybe I'll just think in my mind that R&S (all the way to level 10 in 10th grade) covers modern writing, Weston/Kane/Corbett cover rhetoric, and d'Angelo expands on the progym section of Corbett's book. Now - how do you put it all into a 4 year plan? Or do you? :D

 

in that I didn't give a link to the specific page to the Classical Writing Message Boards that gives examples of the progymnasmata, both ancient examples and modern examples. This would be the correct page. So---the short answer to your question is that some or much of modern writing instruction is derived from the progymnasmata, but not all of the canons of rhetoric are always covered by modern-day writing. This is an excellent article by the authors of CW explaining the differences between the progymnasmata and modern-day methods.

 

I'm not very familiar with R&S, but I know that SWB recommended its use for both grammar and writing in general in the second edition of TWTM. I don't think she was necessarily recommending R&S by itself, though, but I do remember her commenting that the writing was "good, good, good."

 

How to put it all into a four year plan? I honestly don't know, since we made it through two of the four years of high school. I can tell you what we did, and how my older two girls are faring now in terms of writing in the high school in which they're enrolled.

 

We started following methods in TWTM when my oldest was in 5th and my middle dd was in 3rd grade. We did lots of dictation and copywork that first year. When we did history together, using the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia, I would get on the whiteboard and we would read the 1-2 page spread together. Then, I would take the book in hand and we would outline the section together on the whiteboard, which they copied down into their notebooks. Then I'd have them write a summary of the material. We used Abeka for grammar, so I would pick and choose some of Abeka's writing suggestions, but according to what I liked/didn't like. I don't have a background in English, so I admit I was stumbling around in the dark many times. But, I developed a "sense" of what worked/didn't work, I guess.

 

Abeka's writing in the Grammar & Composition series improved, so we did more of those exercises, and also used the Classical Writing series. But, then I began to get worried about whether or not we would cover all of the bases following CW, because of CW's publishing schedule. CW is a great program, but I wasn't sure if they'd get all of their books published before my girls were through with school. In addition, even though both girls were decent writers, they hated writing to my schedule. It was agonizing watching them stare at the computer, waiting for inspiration to hit them from on high! So, I decided writing was one of those subjects that I wanted someone else to handle. When I found out that Cindy Marsch had progymnasmata tutorials, I contacted her. I felt that at least they would have more exposure to the progymnasmata that way. So, we did three tutorials last year, which I admit was a lot, but it worked out well, and I'm glad that we did so. I also had Cindy evaluate many of their essays for Omnibus II last year.

 

It seems like they've been able to transition fairly well into the writing which is taught at the high school. They have to put together quarterly writing projects for English, which consist of several different types of writing which the teacher assigns, and so far they've done well with that. My oldest also had to write her first longer research paper (12 pp.) last semester, and did well on that also. The main thing I did at this point was make sure that she made time to work on it on the weekends. She really dislikes doing homework, but there's no other way around that. :tongue_smilie: Before, when they wrote for me at home, they never liked to show me their work for corrections. Now, they always ask me to review what they write before they turn it in.

 

I have both the Corbett and D'Angelo books, but I've only read selections from each. Personally, I don't feel confident or adept enough in my understanding of writing instruction to use those as a curriculum base, but I'm sure there are some that can. I think for a four-year-plan it's best to understand your own level of confidence in teaching writing, and then know what is going to be required for your child's future in both high school and college. For me, the answer to that question was to have someone else give the instruction.

 

I hope this helps! Writing is still one of those vast gray areas in which I feel like I have a glimmer of knowledge but not a complete understanding about the topic.

[Colleen in NS]

So---the short answer to your question is that some or much of modern writing instruction is derived from the progymnasmata, but not all of the canons of rhetoric are always covered by modern-day writing. This is an excellent article by the authors of CW explaining the differences between the progymnasmata and modern-day methods.

 

I'm not very familiar with R&S, but I know that SWB recommended its use for both grammar and writing in general in the second edition of TWTM. I don't think she was necessarily recommending R&S by itself, though, but I do remember her commenting that the writing was "good, good, good."

 

How to put it all into a four year plan?

 

Yes, this helps! Esp. that article comparing ancient to modern. I did look around on the message boards, but didn't see that article.

 

R&S 9&10 are rec'd in WTM, but so is the practice of writing across the curriculum (as well as the rhetoric courses like Corbett). It just seemed, from SWB's blog article, that something in the WTM writing-in-high school pattern changed. And I'm not quite sure why or what is/isn't included anymore, probably because I don't know much yet about progym vs. modern writing methods, or what writing instruction is needed for college and life. I guess I'll see how it all works out in the new WTM, hopefully. Maybe I should do a board search and see what comes up - I might be able to get some more things straight in my head.

 

Thank you!

[Jean in Wisc]

What exactly is involved in "modern" writing? Is it different from "rhetoric" writing (like the Corbett book and other rhetoric/writing books in WTM)?

 

Would you ideally cover "progym," "modern," and "rhetoric" writing sometime in the last 5 or so years of schooling? Or does modern and rhetoric involve the same types of writing?

 

I have not read all the responses to this. (Not enough time!)

 

We made it half way through Composition in the Classical Tradition and used some of the Classical Composition books. Some of the progym programs would be more comprehensive than these, I think. But what I found was that my children benefited from my teaching them how to write the 5-paragraph essay and how to expand on it. We did the research paper, the precis, a resume. We studied the best way to write the ACT Writing portion, and how to take notes. I taught my children any format of writing that I was required to use in college. These are the "modern" writing skills that I refer to. I'm sure there are some progym programs that would include these skills. My daughter has used the 5-paragraph essay style of writing for the ACT, college papers, scholarship essays, and college entrance essays. She learned the format of writing a paper like this (such as in Format Writing)Although the progym helped my kids learn to write and to analyse types of writing, it has been the 5-para that has been the most functional.

 

FWIW,

Jean

[Colleen in NS]

But what I found was that my children benefited from my teaching them how to write the 5-paragraph essay and how to expand on it. We did the research paper, the precis, a resume. We studied the best way to write the ACT Writing portion, and how to take notes. I taught my children any format of writing that I was required to use in college. These are the "modern" writing skills that I refer to. I'm sure there are some progym programs that would include these skills. My daughter has used the 5-paragraph essay style of writing for the ACT, college papers, scholarship essays, and college entrance essays. She learned the format of writing a paper like this (such as in Format Writing)Although the progym helped my kids learn to write and to analyse types of writing, it has been the 5-para that has been the most functional.

 

Is there a list somewhere of all modern writing skills that should be taught in high school (or is that too long or too dependent on individual students/goals?)? I wouldn't mind comparing it to what I see in my d'Angelo and R&S books. It sounds like modern writing skills are very important to include, in addition to doing rhetoric and progym.

[Jean in Wisc]

Is there a list somewhere of all modern writing skills that should be taught in high school (or is that too long or too dependent on individual students/goals?)? I wouldn't mind comparing it to what I see in my d'Angelo and R&S books. It sounds like modern writing skills are very important to include, in addition to doing rhetoric and progym.

 

I don't know of any one list. The book Format Writing includes a lot of these, though.

 

Jean