Can anyone direct me to threads comparing TOG to Omnibus?

[HappyGrace]

I know there must be several! Thanks so much!

 

(Cross-posted to high school board.)

[HappyGrace]

bump

[PeterPan]

Is your co-op trying to decide what direction to go? You are aware that you still have to add history onto Omnibus, right? One of the things that has concerned me, a little red flag (to my mind) that I've seen come up in conversations, is the whole educational approach of Omnibus. When people have posted essay questions from it, some of them have been worded in a way that was NOT the way I would have approached the topic. That's an educational philosophy thing, and I don't even have anything specific to cite. I'm just saying that when the time comes for me to get my hands on Omnibus, that's what I'm going to be looking at. There's an entire chapter of Omnibus (at least book1) available on VP's site, isn't there? And then you can download the free unit of TOG. Compare the types of questions and see what you think.

 

I haven't a clue what we'll do when we get to that stage. So even if this wasn't helpful, at least you got another bump. :)

[PeterPan]

Well my understanding was they use Spielvogel and review the history cards alongside it, but I could be wrong. That's just what I had read.

[HappyGrace]

and how to backtrack from there to make more of a road map for myself on how to get there, and that type of thing so I make sure we are where we need to be skill-wise when the time comes. It may seem early, but next yr is 4th-that gives me three yrs to develop the skills for Omnibus, which is some heavy duty stuff. I'm not sure if I will go with what the co-op uses or not, which is why I'm trying to think this through a little now. I'm concerned about several things with Omnibus-is the history enough? Is it TOO Reformed for us?...that type of thing. I may actually be able to rule one of them out now if there are any of my "deal-breakers" in them.

 

I have already printed out the Genesis chapter of VP, also almost all of TOG samples. That's been helpful. What is interesting to me right now is hearing the viewpoint of people who have used or are familiar with both of them and their weaknesses/strong points as a WHOLE program. If you're interested, I cross-posted to HS and someone posted a couple good links.

[PeterPan]

Well I started pondering that a year ago too, so you aren't crazy, lol. I finally decided it's good to make the skills aquisition as your goal/standard, whether you end up doing Omnibus or not. They seem to have some of the highest standards right now for where you need to be with your composition and whatnot, so if we're ready to do it, we're ready. If we decide not to, it won't have hurt anything.

[Tami]

I think Omnibus looks fantastic, but is a bit ambitious for age. It includes an integrated approach to history, theology, and literature. I love the guide, and I would encourage you to download samples. I think Omnibus emphasizes fewer, challenging books; the quality over quantity approach. I actually think the 7th/8th grade levels would be more appropriate for high school, but the actual content looks top-notch.

[PeterPan]

I think Omnibus looks fantastic, but is a bit ambitious for age...I actually think the 7th/8th grade levels would be more appropriate for high school, but the actual content looks top-notch.

 

That's actually one of VP's stated goals, to move up the level of accomplishment (high school in junior high, college in high school, etc.). It's part of their theology about christians having influence in all things (I forget the way they put it), and you have to be top notch to have influence. At least that was the jist. M. Detweiler talked about it in one of the conference lectures I listened to. You can buy them as downloads on wordmp3.com.

 

BTW, all that sounds silly when I think about it, because nothing else their doing is really high school level in junior high (science or math), and of course you can't change child development, child thought processes, or the maturation rate (which is really what you're bucking on things like theological/religious understanding).

Edited January 25, 2009 by OhElizabeth

[Tami]

I'm sure that's the case, but we plan to use Omnibus I and II in high school, likely jr and sr year. It looks like a fabulous course, and I like the teacher's guide a great deal. Below I have posted the info for Omnibus I from the curriculum guide that VP used to have online. I don't see it anywhere now, but I know my dd won't be mature enough the get as much out of this course as a 7th grader. Each child is different of course, since Veritas Press schools are successfully using these courses at the grade levels suggested.

 

My take is that the teachers have to spoon feed, explain, and interpret so much at the 7th grade level that would come more naturally and fully in 11th grade and up.

 

One could also change the Omnibus order. If pressed, I would also consider covering Omnibus III in 7th/8th , since the material looks easier, and then following up with I and II after that. That's one idea, anyway!

 

From the old curriculum guide from VP (not appropriate for my upcoming 7th grader, IMO):

 

 

A.Primary goals—the student will be able to:

 

1.What is the nature of God?

a.Differentiate the character of the True God from the character of the false gods of pagan antiquity. Especially concerning these characteristics:

i.Incomprehensibility

ii.Immutability

iii.Infinity

iv.Unity

v.Spirituality (i.e., the divine nature is a spirit)

vi.Omniscience

vii.Holiness

viii.Justice

ix.Goodness

x.Truth

b.Explain the nature of God’s decrees concerning election and predestination.

c.Explain how God created the World.

d.Differentiate between the Christian doctrine of Providence and the pagan concept of fate.

e.Know the major events of redemptive history.

2.What is the nature of man?

a.Explain what it means for man to be made in the image of God.

b.Explain the effects of the Fall upon the image of God in man.

c.Explain the effects of the Fall upon the Adam’s descendants and the federal nature of Adam’s sin.

d.Differentiate between the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace.

3.What is Truth?

a.Explain how God Himself is the absolute standard of truth.

b.Distinguish between truth and error.

4.What is Goodness?

a.Explain how God Himself is the absolute standard of goodness.

b.Compare with the Greek idea of goodness.

5.What is Beauty?

a.Explain how God Himself is the absolute standard of beauty.

b.Know the great literature of the ancient world.

c.Know the characteristics of Hebrew, Greek and Roman poetry.

d.Know the characteristics of Greek drama.

6.What is Being? (Ontology)

7.How does one attain knowledge? (Epistemology)

8.How should man be governed?

a.Explain the basic structure of the governments of Classical Athens and the Roman Republic and how these models have contributed the development of modern liberal democracy.

b.Differentiate between a democracy, a republic and a monarchy.

 

 

B.Integrative goals—the student will be able to:

 

1.Aesthetics

a.Art

i.Analyze Michaelangelo’s The Creation of Adam and other sections of the Sistine Chapel.

ii.Identify the major artistic works (in sculpture, architecture and music) of ancient Greece, Rome and early Christian art.

iii.Identify the seven wonders of the ancient world.

b.Music and Drama

i.Understand and enjoy enduring musical works from or about the time period.

ii.Act out some important scenes from the Orestia trilogy and the Theban trilogy.

iii.Discuss whether Antigone makes the right decision by burying her brother. (i.e., What are the limits of state authority?) (Theban Triology)

2.Composition

a.Write a Homeric simile.

b.Outline an essay that he is reading.

c.Write an essay with:

i.A discernable thesis statement.

ii.Divisions.

iii.An introduction.

iv.A conclusion.

d.Write an essay that uses proper grammar and spelling (continued review of grammar school goal).

3.Logic

a.Use logic and Scripture to explain whether the Hebrew midwives sinned or not. (Exodus)

b.Make a logically valid argument for finding Socrates guilty or not guilty of corrupting the youth. (Last Days of Socrates)

c.Make a logically valid argument for or against the continuance of miraculous signs and wonders and speaking in tongues. (Luke and Acts)

4.Other

a.Identify on map major geographic and architectural features of the cities of Athens and Rome. (The Ancient City)

b.Identify major cultural events from antiquity.

 

 

C.Primary objectives—the student will be able to:

 

1.Theology

a.Understand the different views of creation (seven literal days, day-age theory, framework hypothesis) (Genesis).

b.Explain the strengths and weaknesses of each theory, giving preference to the Confessional interpretation of seven literal days.

c.Explain what it means for man to be made in the image of God.

d.Cite the first promise of the gospel given in the Scriptures.

e.Argue the results of the fall on the image of God in man and the physical creation.

f.Contrast the covenant of works and the covenant of grace.

g.Compare and contrast the Greek deities with the God of the Bible. (The Iliad)

h.Compare the theomacy of the plagues of Genesis with that of the Trojan myth. (Exodus)

i.Explain how the Exodus foreshadows our salvation through Jesus Christ.

j.Explain the doctrine of predestination and defend it with Scriptural proof for it. (Chosen by God)

k.Give a brief explanation of the antinomies the reformed ideas of salvation and the problems with the non-reformed ideas of salvation.

l.Defeat the dilemma of liberal scholarship which stated that books like Gilgamesh where evidence that the Bible is not true and show instead how the stories of the epic support Biblical validity. (Gilgamesh)

m.Explain what Lewis is saying about the doctrine of creation and the Fall in The Magician’s Nephew. (The Magician’s Nephew)

n.Explain how the sacrifice of Aslan is similar to and different than Christ’s sacrifice for his people. (The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe)

o.Compare and contrasts Lewis’s teachings in The Chronicles on Narnia with biblical teaching.

p.Explain the main events of the life of David. (I & II Samuel, I & II Kings)

q.Know and explain the importance of the major events of biblical history including:

i.The cycle of the judges.

ii.Reign and rejection of Saul.

iii.The reign of David.

iv.The construction of the temple.

v.The division of the Kingdom.

vi.The fall of the North to the Assyrians.

vii.The prophets.

viii.The fall of Judah to the Babylonians.

ix.The return of the exiles.

x.The intertestamental period.

xi.The ministry and sacrifice of the Messiah.

xii.The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.

r.Describe the union of Christ’s divine and human natures. (Luke and Acts)

s.Explain the value of miracles in the ministry of Jesus.

t.Explain the Roman practice of emperor worship and how that practice led to the persecution of the early church. (Suetonius)

u.List the major accomplishments of the first twelve emperors.

v.Compare and contrast biblical teaching with Lewis’s portrayal of demons in The Screwtape Letters.

2.History

a.Give an account of antediluvian history. (Genesis)

b.Explain how the Hebrews became slaves in Egypt.

c.Explain the major events of the Trojan War. (The Iliad)

d.Tell the major events of Egyptian History (Exodus and Herodotus)

e.Explain the importance of the Battle of Marathon.

f.Explain the method and strategy of the second Persian invasion.

g.Draw on a map and explain the strategy of the Battle of Salamis.

h.Explain the history and movements of pre-Socratic philosophy. (The Last Days of Socrates)

i.Explain the relationship between the Peloponnesian War and the life of Socrates.

j.Explain Livy’s account of the founding of Rome by Romulus and Remus. (Livy)

k.Explain the end of the Roman monarchy.

l.Tell what a plebe and patrician were.

m.Explain the importance, functions and make up in Rome of :

i.The Senate

ii.The office of Tribune

n.Explain how Rome conquered Italy.

o.Give an outline of the important events of the life of Jesus and of the development of the early church. (Luke and Acts)

p.Explain the importance of Julius Caesar in Roman history. (Suetonius)

q.Give a description of the plot against Caesar and his assassination.

r.Explain the importance of the Battle of Actium.

s.Tell of the prosperity of Rome under the first twelve Caesars.

t.Describe the importance of the reign of Constantine.

3.Literature

a.State the characteristics of Hebraic poetry and show that the first few chapters of Genesis are not in fact meant to be poetic.

b.Explain what an epic poem is. (The Iliad)

c.Identify a homeric simile and state its importance to the study Greek history.

d.Identify the major events of Odysseus’s wanderings. (The Odyssey)

e.Tell why Herodotus was the father of history writing. (Histories)

f.Compare and contrast modern historical writers with Herodotus.

g.Explain the basic elements of Greek tragedy. (Aeschylus)

h.Explain how Lewis uses Till We Have Faces to teach some aspects of a biblical worldview. (Till We Have Faces)

i.Compare and Contrast Aslan and Christ.

j.Explain the idea of hubris. (Theban Triology)

k.Explain the concept of building tension and climax (Oedipus Rex)

l.Identify and explain the structure of Hebrew poetry (progressive parallelism)

m.Explain the benefits of writing dialogues (Plato)

n.Explain Vergil’s purpose in writing The Aeneid. (The Aeneid)

o.Demonstrate how Vergil builds on Homer.

 

 

D.Primary teaching methods

 

1.Reading followed by discussion

2.Socratic interaction

3.Debate (both individual and broader)

4.Reading passages together and teacher explaining them.

5.Recitation (small group oral quizzing)

6.Disputatio (as an observer)

7.Viewing and discussing pertinent works of arts, music and poetry.

8.Lecture

 

 

E.Approximate time per week—Eight classes a week, 70 minutes a class and approximately 30 minutes of homework per classroom hour

[Heather in VA]

One other thing to consider about Omnibus, it is very much from a Reformed perspective. With some adjusting a non-reformed person could use it. I know several Catholics who have tried and found it offensive. I am not reformed myself and have read most of Omnibus I. I'd have to make some changes to use it but it would be doable.

 

I don't know if that makes a difference to you, but I thought I'd share.

 

As far as integrated history, I do think it can be done without additional formal history, assuming you and your students have a good history background. If they don't, you'd at least want to be reading a history text along side. As the teacher, I'd definately be reading the history text along side even if my students weren't to make sure I'm teaching the context and connections properly.

 

Finally, I agree with Tami, I'd use them in high school. It can be done in jr high, but frankly there doesn't seem to be much point. You'll get much more out of it later and won't have to worry about possible inappropriate content, especially in Omnibus I.

 

Heather

[HappyGrace]

(WAAY) down the line at co-op would be that they would not hit Omnibus I in 7th grade, so that helps me a lot. (I feel that Omnibus I is much more difficult, and the content of some of the works are inappropriate for 7th grade.) Tami, your post was very helpful. I'm printing it out. I had never seen that before! Heather, it is great to hear that about the "Reformed-ness" of Omnibus. I am currently exploring the Scriptures for myself regarding aspects of the Reformed theology, trying to figure out where I stand on it, and praying for the Spirit's guidance. I do think it is an area that shouldn't be divisive among Christians. In any event, it's good to know that changes can be made to Omnibus if necessary.

 

I somehow feel that TOG just seems to give a more balanced approach. But then you have to have more resources to make it work. Omnibus is more compact, both in approach and in resources-more "pick it up and go" so to speak. It is really engaging looking. I have Omnibus I here to look at for a couple days right now. My 9yo is asking to be put forward a grade so she can get to it quicker! (not going to happen) It seems to be MUCH more toward rhetoric age thinking that logic stage-more synthesis based than you would find in logic stage.

 

I wish I understood the higher grade levels, because I have it here to look at, but don't really understand what to look for, comparatively speaking! I'm still in grammar stage, so it's tough to make a good judgment call on this. It's fun to look at though!

[PeterPan]

Tami, thanks for that info! Very interesting!

[Elohcin]

One thing that I think people don't think about with Omnibus in 7th and 8th grade is that it is an introduction to the great books. You can use as much or as little as your child is ready for as you introduce them to this new level of learning. You are moving up from teaching grammar students to teaching rhetoric students. I think it is going to be different, and should be harder.

I plan on using this curriculum, probably not as written. I am using CW, not IEW so we will have already a good intro to progym. We may have to alter some of the writing assignments as a result. Some of the material I don't think will be appropriate for my 7th grader, so I will leave that out. I know the material in Omnibus 1 is harder (than II or III) so we will probably go slower and just choose what my husband and I feel will be most valuable. Again, just introducing the level of study of expectation. She will get this time period again when we go through Omnibus IV.

 

I have looked at TOG, again and again, and I just am not crazy about how some of the program is handled. It works beautifully for some people, but I don't feel it would work for us (I have used it before, so I know from a grammar and upper grammar perspective).

One thing I have learned in the 6 years I have been doing this, is even if it sounds like the best curriculum in the world and it works wonderfully for some other family--it may be the totally wrong fit for us.

 

I love what Omnibus has to offer and I think it can be used in a wonderfully flexible way for my family. I certainly don't think that it is the be all or end all. You need to find what works for you.

 

HTH,