Mathpath topics

[M4fun]

DYS is going to Mathpath in July. That leaves us not much room to do anything else. One item on the agenda is to work towards qualifying for USAJMO until the AMCs. As a middle schooler, missed AIME last 2 years by a couple of points. We are not Math majors so can't help much. I know there are experienced members so looking for some advice on 2 questions - 

1. What topics/courses in MathPath will help prepare for USAJMO? It seems the courses are not yet decided but I was thinking there must be some courses offered every year. 

2. Since we have only half of June and half of August in summer and a couple of months until the AMCs, what steps/courses to take to qualify for USAJMO? We have heard of WOOT, EGMO, alphastar but have no experience personally. 

Edited April 26 by M4fun

[Malam]

Qualifying for AIME is a different (easier) game than qualifying for USAJMO. How does he do on AMC 10 mocks? Have you received the a list of mathpath topics yet?

[M4fun]

7 hours ago, Malam said:

Qualifying for AIME is a different (easier) game than qualifying for USAJMO. How does he do on AMC 10 mocks? Have you received the a list of mathpath topics yet?

I agree, AIME is easy. So basically what are tried and tested resources or courses that will help to qualify for USAJMO. Has not tried mocks since the past AMC  score, but the score was slightly above 100.  No, we have not got the list for Mathpath too, that's the reason for this post. 

[Malam]

That's a borderline score - it's possible (but rare) that the cutoff might be above, say, 105.

Since the AIME is in February, you would have enough time after Mathpath for the last sections of these two AoPS AIME problem courses: https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/maa-aimea https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/maa-aimeb

Which AoPS books/courses has he completed so far?

Edited April 27 by Malam

[lewelma]

My ds only did proof-based exams, so I can't comment on AIME.  His path was with the AoPS books.  Once he got through all the intermediate books, all exams became easier.  But he did do ALL the problems in ALL the books. 

[M4fun]

6 hours ago, Malam said:

That's a borderline score - it's possible (but rare) that the cutoff might be above, say, 105.

Since the AIME is in February, you would have enough time after Mathpath for the last sections of these two AoPS AIME problem courses: https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/maa-aimea https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/maa-aimeb

Which AoPS books/courses has he completed so far?

Yes, those courses were what I was thinking too. I read some reviews from students on AOPS forums that they solve problems from some old papers. Which probably does not help much or they can self study.

Also, DYS finished Intermediate Algebra and C&P in 5th/6th grade. Wondering if there is a need to take those again. I do not think DYS was able to make much out of the AOPS books or intermediate courses at that time.  DYS is taking Intermediate NT now. I was thinking that I should set Alcumus to 'insanely hard' and have DYS do 50 problems while at camp and go through the AOPS books when home. 

When do kids take WOOT exactly? Or Evan Chen's classes? 

Edited April 27 by M4fun

[M4fun]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

My ds only did proof-based exams, so I can't comment on AIME.  His path was with the AoPS books.  Once he got through all the intermediate books, all exams became easier.  But he did do ALL the problems in ALL the books. 

Yes, I have heard how the AOPS books helped. DYS has definitely not done ALL the problems in all the books. Was it just the AOPS books that helped him qualify for the USAJMO? 

I think DYS is getting stretched too thin between swimming and music practices, school schedules, other science competitions, and such that there i no time left for targeted prep other than joining AOPS classes.

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, M4fun said:

Yes, I have heard how the AOPS books helped. DYS has definitely not done ALL the problems in all the books. Was it just the AOPS books that helped him qualify for the USAJMO? 

We are in NZ. My son qualified for the AMO (Australian math olympiad) and the BMO2 (British Math Olympiad, BMO1 is the junior one) after completing the intermediate AoPS books.  But he did them with the discovery method. He never had a teacher or a course until he was 14. He considered all help to be cheating (including me). So I'm not clear on how different the learning is when the AoPS books are used as a self-teaching discovery-method course vs just a problem set used in a taught course. 

Edited April 28 by lewelma

[lewelma]

2 hours ago, M4fun said:

I think DYS is getting stretched too thin between swimming and music practices, school schedules, other science competitions, and such that there i no time left for targeted prep other than joining AOPS classes.

This I understand. My kid was homeschooled without external courses, so we could make things more flexible than a school schedule or even online class schedule.  He was, however, a national level musician, so I really really get how disruptive all the lessons, rehearsals, concerts, etc are.  

[Malam]

7 hours ago, M4fun said:

Yes, those courses were what I was thinking too. I read some reviews from students on AOPS forums that they solve problems from some old papers. Which probably does not help much or they can self study.

Also, DYS finished Intermediate Algebra and C&P in 5th/6th grade. Wondering if there is a need to take those again. I do not think DYS was able to make much out of the AOPS books or intermediate courses at that time.  DYS is taking Intermediate NT now. I was thinking that I should set Alcumus to 'insanely hard' and have DYS do 50 problems while at camp and go through the AOPS books when home. 

When do kids take WOOT exactly? Or Evan Chen's classes? 

I don't think it would hurt to revisit the intermediate algebra book and do the end of chapter problems, especially the starred ones. Another option would be Volume 2.

MathWOOT is meant for students who are scoring at least 5 on the AIME, and Evan Chen's Olympiad course is meanr for (J)MO qualifiers (Here is one of the handouts for the easiest track).

If you're looking for more classes or tutors, you can look here: https://web.evanchen.cc/mentors.html or here: https://www.everaise.org/course/math

[M4fun]

8 hours ago, Malam said:

I don't think it would hurt to revisit the intermediate algebra book and do the end of chapter problems, especially the starred ones. Another option would be Volume 2.

MathWOOT is meant for students who are scoring at least 5 on the AIME, and Evan Chen's Olympiad course is meanr for (J)MO qualifiers (Here is one of the handouts for the easiest track).

If you're looking for more classes or tutors, you can look here: https://web.evanchen.cc/mentors.html or here: https://www.everaise.org/course/math

That's a good idea! We will focus on the end-of-chapter problems. My worry is DYS is not getting as much out of AOPS courses because we always fall short of time when completing the homework.

DYS solved 4 problems on one of the latest AIME this morning. Wondering if WOOT 1 (which starts in Sept and she makes progress by then) is appropriate or AIME 1 and AIME 2. 🙂

Edited April 28 by M4fun

[M4fun]

14 hours ago, lewelma said:

We are in NZ. My son qualified for the AMO (Australian math olympiad) and the BMO2 (British Math Olympiad, BMO1 is the junior one) after completing the intermediate AoPS books.  But he did them with the discovery method. He never had a teacher or a course until he was 14. He considered all help to be cheating (including me). So I'm not clear on how different the learning is when the AoPS books are used as a self-teaching discovery-method course vs just a problem set used in a taught course. 

Oh, wonderful achievements!

[M4fun]

14 hours ago, lewelma said:

This I understand. My kid was homeschooled without external courses, so we could make things more flexible than a school schedule or even online class schedule.  He was, however, a national level musician, so I really really get how disruptive all the lessons, rehearsals, concerts, etc are.  

Being a national-level musician is an awesome achievement! I think we need to pick and choose her activities next year. 

[M4fun]

Any experiences with Alphastar or Random math? Just heard they are good but not sure whether to go with AOPS classes or Alphastar. 

[Malam]

2 hours ago, M4fun said:

My worry is DYS is not getting as much out of AOPS courses because we always fall short of time when completing the homework

If time is an issue, I can only assume WOOT would be more time intensive than the AIME problem series which in turn would be more time intensive than self-paced end of chapter problems/Alcumus/volume 2/past AIME problems and explanations

[daijobu]

On 4/26/2024 at 11:34 AM, M4fun said:

DYS is going to Mathpath in July. That leaves us not much room to do anything else. One item on the agenda is to work towards qualifying for USAJMO until the AMCs. As a middle schooler, missed AIME last 2 years by a couple of points. We are not Math majors so can't help much. I know there are experienced members so looking for some advice on 2 questions - 

1. What topics/courses in MathPath will help prepare for USAJMO? It seems the courses are not yet decided but I was thinking there must be some courses offered every year. 

2. Since we have only half of June and half of August in summer and a couple of months until the AMCs, what steps/courses to take to qualify for USAJMO? We have heard of WOOT, EGMO, alphastar but have no experience personally. 

I'm not all that familiar with MathPath, though I know it's fairly prestigious and people have raved about the experience.  But I don't think it's going to be very oriented toward test prep for the AMC and AIME.  

A rule of thumb for USAJMO qual is to answer around 10 AIME problems.  Is your son in that ball park?  The most efficient way to get there is to start working through as many AIME problems as possible between now and February 2025.  Study the problems he could not solve.  Write out the solutions in a notebook, let a week or so elapse and then try to solve the problem again.  Let a month elapse and try again.  Meanwhile keep adding new hard problems to his notebook.  (This is what I do with my AIME--> USAMO students.)

But all this is moot if he doesn't qualify for AIME in November 2024, so he should also focus on maximizing his AMC score.  That rule of thumb is answering at least 15 questions correctly, the rest unanswered.  No wrong answers, or maybe at most one wrong answer.  I coach my students to take a peek at the Final Five if they have time and if they have no wrong answers in the rest of the AMC.  If they see a Final Five problem they think they can tackle, go for it, but otherwise their main goal should be a clean exam (no wrong answers).  

On his old AMC did he get any questions wrong?  Did he run out of time?  

I have a student I'm tutoring who also hasn't qualified for AIME yet.  This summer we are alternating between old AMCs and old AIMEs.  One the AMC we're focusing on making the qualifying score for that year.  With the AIMEs we're building his toolbox of theorems and approaches.  Good luck!  

[daijobu]

4 hours ago, M4fun said:

DYS solved 4 problems on one of the latest AIME this morning. Wondering if WOOT 1 (which starts in Sept and she makes progress by then) is appropriate or AIME 1 and AIME 2. 🙂

That's great.  Now he needs to get over the hump for the next 5 problems on the AIME.  He absolutely needs to return to those exams and study the problems he couldn't solve the first time.  What is he missing?  Study the solutions on AoPS or published by the MAA.  Write out his favorite solution in a notebook and try solving those problems again in May.  There's really no substitute for studying old exams, and this is what I do with my students.  

Maybe this image will inspire your student to start prepping.  (I found it on AoPS.)  

[daijobu]

21 hours ago, M4fun said:

Also, DYS finished Intermediate Algebra and C&P in 5th/6th grade. Wondering if there is a need to take those again. I do not think DYS was able to make much out of the AOPS books or intermediate courses at that time.  DYS is taking Intermediate NT now. I was thinking that I should set Alcumus to 'insanely hard' and have DYS do 50 problems while at camp and go through the AOPS books when home. 

 

I would not retake those classes.  He can refer back to those textbooks as needed as he works through the AIME problems.  

The AoPS courses and Alcumus are excellent, but I think the ROI is fairly low.  There's an opportunity cost to sitting in lecture and doing homework versus taking actual old AIMEs, monitoring your progress, creating a problem notebook and practice practice practice.  

[daijobu]

On 4/27/2024 at 7:14 AM, M4fun said:

I agree, AIME is easy. So basically what are tried and tested resources or courses that will help to qualify for USAJMO. Has not tried mocks since the past AMC  score, but the score was slightly above 100.  No, we have not got the list for Mathpath too, that's the reason for this post. 

This is confusing to me.  Do you mean: "Qualifying for AIME is easy."  If so, it's a funny statement give your son has not yet qualified for AIME. 

Do you mean: "Taking the AIME is easy."  Again, your son is only able to answer the first 4 problems, which frankly are often easier than the AMC Final Five. 

I happen to think that qualifying for AIME is an impressive accomplishment for many high school students and one they should include on their college applications.  Qualifying for USAJMO puts a student into an elite group that includes the best math students in the US/world. 

Neither of these are "easy" in my mind.    

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, M4fun said:

Being a national-level musician is an awesome achievement! I think we need to pick and choose her activities next year. 

Well, NZ is kind of small. lol. My point was more that music is one of those things that easily takes over your life, not with how much time it takes, but more with the constant irregularly-timed interruptions to a daily routine. 

[M4fun]

8 hours ago, daijobu said:

This is confusing to me.  Do you mean: "Qualifying for AIME is easy."  If so, it's a funny statement give your son has not yet qualified for AIME. 

Do you mean: "Taking the AIME is easy."  Again, your son is only able to answer the first 4 problems, which frankly are often easier than the AMC Final Five. 

I happen to think that qualifying for AIME is an impressive accomplishment for many high school students and one they should include on their college applications.  Qualifying for USAJMO puts a student into an elite group that includes the best math students in the US/world. 

Neither of these are "easy" in my mind.    

It was a comparison - Qualifying for AIME is easier than the jump from AIME to USAJMO. At least the journey was easier for AIME for DYS, managing all sorts of activities. For USAJMO, it seems we will need targeted prep, dropping, or reducing all other activities. DYS would have easily qualified this year had it not been for the sudden rise in the AMC 10 cutoffs this year. 

The AIME was taken randomly today after the AMC 8 in January since DYS did not have time to work on any AMC/AIME papers since then. DYS was given only one hour(not three hours for the full AIME), and DYS got four problems. DYS may have solved more if we had given the entire three hours. Our test was more to check which course would fit better. However, I do realize that DYS still has a lot of room to improve on the AMC itself. 

Edited April 29 by M4fun

[Malam]

9 hours ago, daijobu said:

But I don't think it's going to be very oriented toward test prep for the AMC and AIME. 

From what I saw at past course descriptions, there are a couple that teach relevant topics/skills

[Malam]

4 hours ago, M4fun said:

DYS got four problems. DYS may have solved more if we had given the entire three hours

If you think he would have gotten more, then it would make sense to enroll him in MathWOOT level 1, especially if you're not confident in his ability to self study

[M4fun]

9 hours ago, Malam said:

From what I saw at past course descriptions, there are a couple that teach relevant topics/skills

Exactly, thats what I am trying to find out. 

[M4fun]

6 hours ago, Malam said:

If you think he would have gotten more, then it would make sense to enroll him in MathWOOT level 1, especially if you're not confident in his ability to self study

I think it's the time that is an issue more than the ability to self-study. That's the reason I started this thread. We do not have much time to explore different courses so was seeking advice on what courses worked for folks here. We keep switching between self-studying and applying to one of these Alphastar and WOOT-like courses.  

[lewelma]

My son took the WOOT for three years (grades 10-12).  He did not find it as effective as the classes he took, because there were no deadlines for WOOT.  He had to find time out of his busy schedule and self assign what would be the most useful for his level. What WOOT did give him was a set of problems and solutions that would have been time consuming to find and collate on his own.  I don't remember much about the marking of his proofs, by that point he didn't really need feedback on his proof writing. 

Edited April 29 by lewelma

[M4fun]

On 4/29/2024 at 2:22 PM, lewelma said:

My son took the WOOT for three years (grades 10-12).  He did not find it as effective as the classes he took, because there were no deadlines for WOOT.  He had to find time out of his busy schedule and self assign what would be the most useful for his level. What WOOT did give him was a set of problems and solutions that would have been time consuming to find and collate on his own.  I don't remember much about the marking of his proofs, by that point he didn't really need feedback on his proof writing. 

That's good info about WOOT. May I ask what classes were more effective?

[lewelma]

23 hours ago, M4fun said:

That's good info about WOOT. May I ask what classes were more effective?

He took the AoPS intermediate Algebra, Olympiad Geometry, intermediate combinatorics, intermediate number theory, and precalc classes, which were all excellent. What made them so effective *for him* was that he did them in about 15 months around the age of 14. This intensity really got him up to the next level. We dropped a lot of other classes to make space for this workload. We did not drop his music because that was his social life and second passion. 

Edited May 1 by lewelma

[lewelma]

I thought I would also add, that he could do these classes effectively at this kind of speed because he had spent 3 full years on introductory algebra really bringing up his problem solving and 1.5 years on introductory geometry.  so from age 9 to 12.5. Then he did the intro number theory, combinatorics, and a UK intermediate geometry book for about 6 months in prep for the intensity of the class load he was planning. Basically, super slow on the intro content, and then fast through the intermediate content. 

[Malam]

10 hours ago, lewelma said:

He took the AoPS intermediate Algebra, Olympiad Geometry, intermediate combinatorics, intermediate number theory, and precalc classes, which were all excellent. What made them so effective *for him* was that he did them in about 15 months around the age of 14. This intensity really got him up to the next level. We dropped a lot of other classes to make space for this workload. We did not drop his music because that was his social life and second passion. 

Which subjects did he drop and how did you still fit four years of them into his transcript? Did he hold off on precalc until after completing intermediate algebra?

Edited May 2 by Malam

[lewelma]

On 5/2/2024 at 5:08 PM, Malam said:

Which subjects did he drop and how did you still fit four years of them into his transcript? Did he hold off on precalc until after completing intermediate algebra?

It's been a while ago, but I dug up my course descriptions and transcript.  For both number theory and combinatorics I gave a full credit for a blended class and I put each half credit in the year that he did the majority of the work. So even though he did this work for 5 years with the intro books (self studied in 8th), the intermediate class, and the later Olympiad study for 3 years: I put combinatorics in 10th grade and number theory in 11th grade.  I could have put 1/5th class in for both classes for all five years, but that is just too exact for the purpose of the transcript. So I clustered and just stuck it where I needed credits. In hindsight if I had known more I should have given him 2 full credits for combinatorics given that he walked into a graduate level combinatorics class in his freshman year at MIT by talking to the professor and demonstrating he had the knowledge of the 2 prereqs. 

As for how I put all 4 classes on the transcript: Looks like 3 classes he got done in 8th grade - so around 13-14 years old (his birthday is August). Sequentially, I believe it was intermediate number theory, algebra 2 and Olympiad geometry at the same time, and then precalc and intermediate combinatorics at the same time (but I don't remember the actual details). I definitely know he had 2 classes running at the same time because he had to write up 4 proof per week which was a very big time commitment and which is why I dropped all writing requirements for English and history at that time.. 

Classes I dropped: He did his first year of physics over both 8th and 9th grade with all the lab in 8th grade. And we completely dropped all writing for English and History in 9th grade during his classes and only did reading. Given that NZ runs a 40 week school year and we are shifted by 6 months, this meant that he was actually doing math during his summer, and we could do his writing during a small part of our school year. This made him feel like the math was for fun, because when he did it from 15 Nov to 15 Feb, he had nothing else on. We were unschoolers, so had to make stuff understandable to admissions people even when we didn't do it that way. I had lots of help from this board especially from Regentrude. 

I've copied in some stuff in case it helps (The transcript codes were superscripts but have copied in as normal text - so a bit more sloppy than they actually were). This one phrase on the transcript gave me a lot of flexibility to make the credits work out: 

 

Edited May 3 by lewelma

[Malam]

Thank you, the shifted schedule makes sense.