Writing Strands & other WRITING only curriculums

[Ting Tang]

13 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

FWIW, my kids dont diagram AG. We do it orally and they tell me part of speech and what it modifies. After they give the answer, we look at the diagram in the answer key.  It is the best of both bc they have to be able to break the sentence down through oral parsing and then going over it diagrammed.

Thanks so much!  My son did some diagramming the prior two school years to this one anyway, so I am not too concerned how he goes about the analysis.  I want him to keep up his sharp sentence analysis skills but emphasize the writing.  Cottage Press has what looks like a good combination of grammar and writing, so maybe I should reconsider that, too.  *i just don't like when excerpts are pulled from bigger pieces of literature to analyze, which that one does.  Oh goodness gracious.  I better figure this all out soon.  LOL

Edited May 15, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Lori D.]

JMO: I know you want the best for your students, and "classical" and "rigorous" resources seem very attractive. But at the end of the day, it is the curricula that both the student and you "click" with and that gets used daily that will get the job of learning done. Not magical materials done with a mythical student -- a real program that will work for the real child before you. 😉 

That might be "classical" in approach -- but maybe not. Maybe the best option right now is...
... not the curricula that you purchased in past years and feel you "should" use.
... not the curricula that "everyone else" is raving about or using.
... not the curricula that sounds more "classical" or "rigorous" or that appeals to your personal orderliness.
... certainly not the curricula that feels like having to swallow nasty-tasting medicine every.single-day to your student and you. (LOL)

From everything you've shared here, it looks like you want/need something that is...
... simple and direct
... a gentle bite a day
... with teacher support
... not going to make your student hate writing -- and might even be something that he might not mind
... possibly somewhat able for the student to do semi-independently (since you have a number of younger ones)

When you look over all of your research and all of your options for writing:
- What fits most of this list of needs?
- And most of all, what will you ALL be able to actually, really DO every day?

That is what to opt for now. Again, that is JMO. 😄 

And, maybe the thing to do is to just finish this school year, and set homeschooling and researching aside for a week or two -- TAKE A BREAK. And then come back to your research and planning for next year with fresh eyes.

Also, you might sit down with your student and have a short "end of year" convo about HIS thoughts on ALL of the subject areas -- what worked/why, and what didn't work/why. I searched, but I couldn't find who the poster is, but I remember her posting in past years about a little evaluation/survey she and her student did at the end of every year that helped for planning for the next year... What a cool idea!

Wishing you all the BEST! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Ting Tang]

@Lori D.  Thank you so very much!  My biggest struggle is I do like aspects of many curriculums, but sometimes, not all.  And yes, I get overwhelmed because sometimes things look better than they are actually are when put into use. I only have so many hours every single day, and things would go more smoothly if there was only one student versus the four I really have...  

I went to go list my MCT for sale, but then I stopped myself.  There is good stuff in it...  it's just... very heavy reading for the few subjects it covers.  I think that's an excellent plan to help plan (hehe) for next year! 

[8filltheheart]

3 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I went to go list my MCT for sale, but then I stopped myself.  There is good stuff in it...  it's just... very heavy reading for the few subjects it covers.  I think that's an excellent plan to help plan (hehe) for next year! 

I thought I'd share the profile of the student that I used Voyage with and then promptly sold afterward. (She was #5 and I knew I would not touch it with the next 3.)  She is my language loving dd (she graduated with 15 foreign language credits and majored in Russian and French in college.  She loves writing (truly enjoys writing essays and research papers) and lit.  For her, it was even more fun writing in a foreign language!) She was very advanced in 6th grade.  She wrote her first essay that yr.  (And I am not talking about ps definitions of an essay.  I mean a real lit essay with supporting quotes. It was fairly simple, but I haven't had another student write like that in 6th grade.)  She loves classical lit and epic poetry.  (This is a girl who saved up her own $$ in 7th grade and bought an antique copy of Marmion (by Sir Walter Scott).  And we both really hated the selections in Voyage.  Soooooooooo many transcendentalist selections.  Soooo many. It was just a chore to open and suffer through the readings.  

She was my 5th 6th grader.  I had already graduated 2 and had 2 high schoolers that yr--IOW, I knew how to teach a 6th grader how to write bc I had done it multiple times already.   And I can say I would not have been able to teach her how to write well based on Voyages' content.  It isn't explicit.  (and his essay instruction for incorporating quotes is just wrong.)  For us the grammar was way too low of a level.  The vocab was great.  The poetry was too much (even for my poetry loving girl).  Just way too much depth for me.  I don't care about knowing poetry analysis at the level for a 6th grader (or actually any grader).  Some people rave about the poetry.  To each their own.

[Ting Tang]

22 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I thought I'd share the profile of the student that I used Voyage with and then promptly sold afterward. (She was #5 and I knew I would not touch it with the next 3.)  She is my language loving dd (she graduated with 15 foreign language credits and majored in Russian and French in college.  She loves writing (truly enjoys writing essays and research papers) and lit.  For her, it was even more fun writing in a foreign language!) She was very advanced in 6th grade.  She wrote her first essay that yr.  (And I am not talking about ps definitions of an essay.  I mean a real lit essay with supporting quotes. It was fairly simple, but I haven't had another student write like that in 6th grade.)  She loves classical lit and epic poetry.  (This is a girl who saved up her own $$ in 7th grade and bought an antique copy of Marmion (by Sir Walter Scott).  And we both really hated the selections in Voyage.  Soooooooooo many transcendentalist selections.  Soooo many. It was just a chore to open and suffer through the readings.  

She was my 5th 6th grader.  I had already graduated 2 and had 2 high schoolers that yr--IOW, I knew how to teach a 6th grader how to write bc I had done it multiple times already.   And I can say I would not have been able to teach her how to write well based on Voyages' content.  It isn't explicit.  (and his essay instruction for incorporating quotes is just wrong.)  For us the grammar was way too low of a level.  The vocab was great.  The poetry was too much (even for my poetry loving girl).  Just way too much depth for me.  I don't care about knowing poetry analysis at the level for a 6th grader (or actually any grader).  Some people rave about the poetry.  To each their own.

Thank you very much for sharing this; my son does not fit into this profile! We definitely enjoyed aspects from each component, but the idea of another year overwhelms me. I know a 6th grader should be able to read everything on his own, but I can’t picture him doing that with MCT this next year at all.  

[Lori D.]

30 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you very much for sharing this; my son does not fit into this profile! We definitely enjoyed aspects from each component, but the idea of another year overwhelms me. I know a 6th grader should be able to read everything on his own, but I can’t picture him doing that with MCT this next year at all.  

Well, I disagree with this. We did much of our literature all together aloud all the way through the end of high school. Yes, DSs did have some lit. they were reading on their own that was assigned for school. But we had MUCH more in-depth discussions about lit. when we did it together. (And, we were still doing read-alouds for fun -- what I'm talking about is the lit. we were doing "for school.") But of course, every student is different, so YMMV.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Lori D.

[Ting Tang]

24 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Well, I disagree with this. We did much of our literature all together aloud all the way through the end of high school. Yes, DSs did have some lit. they were reading on their own that was assigned for school. But we had MUCH more in-depth discussions about lit. when we did it together. (And, we were still doing read-alouds for fun -- what I'm talking about is the lit. we were doing "for school.") But of course, every student is different, so YMMV.

I have read this often, and I feel like we are not there… but with four kids, I do not know how to have a relaxed nurturing situation when time is so limited. I’m going to try to combine and streamline. 

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

I have read this often, and I feel like we are not there… but with four kids, I do not know how to have a relaxed nurturing situation when time is so limited. I’m going to try to combine and streamline. 

SO sorry, @Ting Tang ! 😵 I so did NOT mean for my statement to make you feel bad or like you're not doing the right thing!

I just meant that it is *okay* to do some literature together in the middle/high school grade -- I said that because I often seeit said (NOT by you) that kids "should" be fully or almost fully independent in their work for homeschool. And that is just not what works for the vast majority of children -- that makes things so very hard on both students AND parents. And that's really what I was reacting to -- that thought. Not to what you are doing. So sorry for not making that clear.

Moms of many have so much to juggle, and I would never want anything I say to make your life harder! I try to always preface with "this is what worked for us because we only had 2 close in age", and "YMMV" -- but I don't always remember to make sure to include that in my posts.

[8filltheheart]

I did all of MCT sitting with my dd on the couch ad reading it aloud/discussing.  She would never have sat and read through those selections.  I didn't even want to sit there and read them.

I do agree with Lori that all the way through high school that there are some things that I sit and read with them.  It is a juggling act, but equally I don't try to do all things.  I also don't make all courses equal.  I never did science or history with my youngest kids.  They didn't need it.  My older kids needed me more (or my really little ones).  When they are your kids' ages, reading, writing, spelling, and math were my priority. 

For rising 5th and 6th graders, I would make science and history independent reading before having them impact lit, writing, spelling, and math.   My kids start science and history when they are typically in 3rd grade OR when they can read to learn vs. learning to read.  Science all the way through to high school equivalent classes is reading well-written books on different topics (not textbooks.)  Same with history (though I tend to read history aloud quite a bit now that I have fewer kids at home.)   My kids didn't spend elementary school doing science demonstrations or history hands-on projects.  I didn't have the time or patience for them.  Equally, it didn't impact them negatively at all.  They all loved science.  (Of my 6 homeschool grads (5 if you don't count our Aspie who does not function on an adult level), 1 is a chemical engineer, 1 is an occupational therapy assistant, 1 majored in physics (earned his masters and dropped out before his phd bc of an excellent job offer with a computer software company and has a job he really enjoys), 1 is a rising college sr majoring in atmospheric science.  Only my language loving dd described above didn't major in something science/health related.)

 Their writing assignments are then pulled from science and history topics.  I pick topics from their reading that I want them to remember, print up 2-3 simple articles on the topic, have them take notes from the articles, and then write a simple report.  (That approach covers a lot of writing skills---gathering information, synthesizing info from more than one source, organizing ideas, creating an outline, and then writing the report.)  

Finding what you want to prioritize, focusing on those first, and then allowing the others be "less intensive" is one way to maintain your sanity while juggling all of the balls.

[Ting Tang]

@8filltheheart oh nothing you said made me think we’re doing things the wrong way! You are so helpful, and I appreciate it! These are ideas I read from CM and MCT. I just don’t think my oldest has the focus or self-determination for that just yet.  Our home can be distracting; it’s not all on him. Do you think it’s okay to create writing assignments from literature? I thought they might enjoy that, especially if we study short stories and tales together. 

[8filltheheart]

It really depends on what you want them to master and what types of writing assignments you want to create.  Writing associated with literature is most likely going to take 1 of 2 forms....creative or analytical.  I prefer to have my kids master basic writing through simple reports vs. creative writing bc once they master basic writing skills they can adapt them to whatever style of writing they want. Creative/fiction writing can help develop basic paragraph skills, but developing controlling topic paragraphs, transitions, conclusions......those are not really applicable to creative writing in the same way as reports/essays.  That structure is what dominates academic writing, so those are the skills I want mastered.  Analytical writing isn't even approached until they can write well.  (It is why a 6th grade essay was advanced for my kids.  Most of my kids are still mastering basic writing in 6th grade so no independent analysis.) 

IOW, yes, you can create writing assignments from literature, but you need to know exactly what skills you are hoping to develop and make sure they possess the lower level skills to achieve those objectives.  From my experience in teaching kids to write, simple paraphrasing of gathered factual information is a much lower level skill than having to analyze.   Creative writing is loved by some kids, not by others.  I have had some kids who would sit blankly staring, feeling tortured by having to come up with story ideas.  Giving them a non-fiction topic to write about was liberating.  😉  Seems counterintuitive, but it is true.  My kids who really enjoy creative writing tended to do it independently anyway.  They would write stories/create books, etc.  

(If you were talking about a 3rd or 4th grader, my response might be different.  But, for 5th/6th graders, I have my kids moving toward a different set of writing skills bc moving toward/into middle school is heading toward prep for high school level writing.)

[Ting Tang]

@8filltheheartthank you so much for this explanation!  I was able to sell our entire MCT unopened Voyage level today.  I feel better, even if I rebuy just the grammar.  

A lot of the classical writing programs seem to begin with narrations, so that is why I wondered if we could use our literature for writing this next year. Maybe for my middle kids.  Hopefully I will come up with something that works for everyone.  What you said makes sense for the oldest, though.