What next after Logic of English Foundations?

[FarmGalAtHeart]

So my son is near finishing Logic of English Foundations (levels A-D)- we love this curriculum for our family. I am considering what to do following as the next next levels (Essentials) get to be quite a lot if we pair them with Latin and more writing. So in the interest of shorter lessons and still getting depth, I'm taking a turn.

So far for next year we will do Prima Latina and IEW Bible Heroes (IEW in a more relaxed fashion for this year to get him familiar with this way of writing in a fun way). But I am looking for a language arts curriculum to pair with these that is thorough and instills strong memorization and understanding to aid in future years. I also would like him to being learning sentence diagramming at some point. Spelling and even vocabulary would be a great bonus. Even dictation would be sweet if included 🙂

I am considering Shurley language, Memoria press grammar memory (would I need a supplement to apply/practice what is learned here?), First Language Lessons and Grammar Galaxy (just learned of this one this week). But I'm not sure which one would fit best. Can anyone with experience with these share your wisdom please? And also, what level he should start following Logic of English's Foundations? 

I also do not want something that takes an hour a day to teach per student (I will be schooling 3 next year and they are younger), so shorter lessons are best...if we can get that and still be very thorough and include mastery 🙂 Can I get the best of both?! Haha! I should also mention I'd like to choose something we can stick with and follow through until it ends, I do not want to keep switching every year.

Side note...has anyone used McGuffey Readers to cover Language Arts thoroughly, with a classical bent? I'd be willing to do that if I had hand holding to teach me how to teach it. 

Any wisdom is so appreciated! Thank you.

Edited April 26, 2023 by FarmGalAtHeart

[Tanager]

We use mcguffey's in our mix (about two days a week), though I think he read the level one book before finishing LOE. I'd love to know how to use it as a full curriculum too as I’m probably missing something.

I can tell you what we do, but I have no idea if it’s how the books are intended to be used: 

1. Read the chapter.

2. Then I remind him to write neatly. First he writes the lesson number at the top of the page in digits. Then he answers the questions on paper in full sentences. We had to work up to him doing it on his own, but it didn't take long(writing is his least favorite thing to do). Sometimes he will ask for help and we talk it out until he’s ready to write.

3. He double checks what he wrote.

4. Then I have him sit with me and have him correct any mistakes with his sentences that I find. And if we haven’t already, we discuss the chapter.

5. Then I read the words at the end of the chapter for spelling. (I don't know if this is what they are supposed to be for as some words seem really easy and some are hard, if he doesn't master them I keep them on the list.) We talk about spelling rules from LOE. As some of the words are harder I will sometimes not use them all. Occasionally we find a word he doesn’t know, like menagerie, and that goes on his vocab cards. 

Again, I’m not sure if that’s correct! Also, I”m not familiar with the other books you are looking at. Hopefully someone else can jump in on that.

[Homeschoolz]

We use mcguffeys as soon as they can blend CVC words,basing phonics and sight words around them. My kindergartener and first grader are both very strong readers and we're past needing to stop to practice certain blends / sight words now, which is amazing. 

We used to stay on a story, doing copywork and word building with letters, other activities to practice blends/sight words until they could read the story fluently, then oral narration (questions can be used as prompts) and move on.  We're spending more time now discussing the piece, metaphors or smilies, punctuation... Feels really natural / organic. 

I think it would be very easy to add FLL and talk about what you're learning in the mcguffeys. I plan to add in FLL in a month or so and add that to our language arts over the next few weeks. You could use word lists for vocab, spelling/dictation (reading the word and having them write it, copywork if wrong), identifying which are say nouns, getting more complex with categorising them as you move through FLL. 

[FarmGalAtHeart]

Thank you @Tanagerand @Homeschoolz...I have a few follow ups:

1. Why did you decide to use the Mcguffeys?

2. How did you learn/know how to teach the way you did with them? I create my own math for the kids as that comes super naturally to me. But teaching language arts and having a guide of what to teach does not come naturally to me with LA. (Which is ironic as I freelance write and love it.) But developing a thorough understanding of the English language in our kids is important to me.

3. Have you used anything alongside McGuffey? 

Thank you so much for your responses. I'm in new territory 🙂

[Tanager]

English isn’t my best subject, so i do my best:

1. I love old books, plus our education system has lost a lot and I was curious about what is used to look like. The morals and common knowledge in these books are priceless. 

2. I started using them with my oldest who loves language and wants to write as a hobby, maybe professionally. We just started doing it, trying to figure it out. I also work from home so the more independent I can make learning the better it works all around.

3. Yes, 2 days a week of Primary Language Lessons and 3+ of Michael Clay Thompson and an online book club class. But for my oldest I had no clue what I was doing, we used Mcguffeys and Primary Language Lessons and tried spelling and vocab books (later figured out she was 2e). We also used essentials (foundations wasn’t out yet and I wish it had been, she was young for essentials and it’s just not as fun! But she had been borderline dyslexic learning to read so i wanted to cover all my bases.) She loved poetry and did poetry for the grammar stage and a few other poetry books... it was a while ago...

Did you see this thread, might have some ideas for you: 

 

[Ellie]

One more to consider would be Rod and Staff Publishers' English series. It's a comprehensive grammar and composition, so you'd just need one book for both of those. Your dc would do his assignments on actual paper, which would also make it penmanship. R&S does have a spelling series, Spelling by Sound and Structure, which is quite good beginning with the fourth grade book, although some of its spelling "rules" will make you twitch, lol. The English texts are written to the student, so it would not require much of your time for actual teaching, just for corrections. There are oral scripted lessons in the excellent teacher manuals, but although they do add some nice warm fuzzy face time, they are not necessary in the least. There are also optional worksheets, but they are completely optional, and unnecessary if you are requiring your dc to do the assignments in the textbook. And also, some people do much of the work orally, but IMHO, (1) if your dc isn't old enough to do the work himself, written, then he isn't ready for it, and (2) writing is an integral and important part of the subject.

[Homeschoolz]

1. Why did you decide to use the Mcguffeys?

They were given to me by an older more experienced mom who loved them for an elementary reading program. Her youngest had just finished 5th and was done with them. She'd used them for all her children and they were all strong readers, which appealed to me. They work. No workbook so easy to progress through them at child's pace, spending as long as needed on each story. 

2. How did you learn/know how to teach the way you did with them? I create my own math for the kids as that comes super naturally to me. But teaching language arts and having a guide of what to teach does not come naturally to me with LA. (Which is ironic as I freelance write and love it.) But developing a thorough understanding of the English language in our kids is important to me.

I looked at various reading programs, I liked the ones that came with reading books rather than just learning it in a workbook as they co-ordinated perfectly. So I decided to just base phonics and sight words as they come up in the readers. I had them, they went to a higher level than other reading programs. When they were immediately reading and understanding what they were reading I knew they needed more. So we started exploring literary devices more. This comes naturally to me, math doesn't and we use MWC. If you need hand holding more, I would start the lesson with FLL which is very quick, then do a mcguffey lesson. Ask the child to point about a noun in the story they read aloud to you. Then perhaps do copywork of that sentence. That is what I plan to do, as I'm weak on naming grammar terms and they'll work together very well anyway. 

3. Have you used anything alongside McGuffey? 

Not yet. But as above I will be adding in First Language Lessons. I am currently using the originals, I have bought the revised set secondhand, when they arrive I'm going to decide where to place them, probably in the second reader. Then we're starting FLL. 

[Homeschoolz]

Oh and another thing I love about mcguffeys, particularly for the revised, is there's a good selection of literature and poetry. (this is why we're switching, the originals are too Christian-mythos heavy, the revised are much more well rounded with a greater variety of literature)., So anything else you read is just for fun, because I feel it's enough to have you covered. 

[Homeschoolz]

Oh my children enjoy reading classic literature and poetry for fun, fully accredit the mcguffeys for that. For years, they're reading classical/more traditional/harder children's literature, meaning it is not intimidating but also enjoyable. The mcguffeys do take them to a very high level, whichever edition you use. 

There's a good variety of literature, more so in the revised in my opinion, and I feel inspires them to read good quality literature for fun. My kindergartener is reading the secret garden for the second time. 

I think they're great to have even if you just use them for daily reading and a separate Language Arts curriculum 

[FarmGalAtHeart]

18 hours ago, Ellie said:

One more to consider would be Rod and Staff Publishers' English series. It's a comprehensive grammar and composition, so you'd just need one book for both of those. Your dc would do his assignments on actual paper, which would also make it penmanship. R&S does have a spelling series, Spelling by Sound and Structure, which is quite good beginning with the fourth grade book, although some of its spelling "rules" will make you twitch, lol. The English texts are written to the student, so it would not require much of your time for actual teaching, just for corrections. There are oral scripted lessons in the excellent teacher manuals, but although they do add some nice warm fuzzy face time, they are not necessary in the least. There are also optional worksheets, but they are completely optional, and unnecessary if you are requiring your dc to do the assignments in the textbook. And also, some people do much of the work orally, but IMHO, (1) if your dc isn't old enough to do the work himself, written, then he isn't ready for it, and (2) writing is an integral and important part of the subject.

I had glanced at it and it looks nice, it just didn't make it to the top of my list when I narrowed my list down 🙂

[FarmGalAtHeart]

19 hours ago, Tanager said:

English isn’t my best subject, so i do my best:

1. I love old books, plus our education system has lost a lot and I was curious about what is used to look like. The morals and common knowledge in these books are priceless. 

2. I started using them with my oldest who loves language and wants to write as a hobby, maybe professionally. We just started doing it, trying to figure it out. I also work from home so the more independent I can make learning the better it works all around.

3. Yes, 2 days a week of Primary Language Lessons and 3+ of Michael Clay Thompson and an online book club class. But for my oldest I had no clue what I was doing, we used Mcguffeys and Primary Language Lessons and tried spelling and vocab books (later figured out she was 2e). We also used essentials (foundations wasn’t out yet and I wish it had been, she was young for essentials and it’s just not as fun! But she had been borderline dyslexic learning to read so i wanted to cover all my bases.) She loved poetry and did poetry for the grammar stage and a few other poetry books... it was a while ago...

Did you see this thread, might have some ideas for ou: 

 

Thank you for sharing. I agree about classic lit! And that is awesome your oldest loves writing and is interested in it professionally.

I have never heard of MCT before, I'm going to look that one up!

I'll check out the thread for sure, thanks! I'm glad when others point out relevant threads, as I search but often miss ones there are so many with great tips! 🙂

[FarmGalAtHeart]

11 hours ago, Homeschoolz said:

1. Why did you decide to use the Mcguffeys?

They were given to me by an older more experienced mom who loved them for an elementary reading program. Her youngest had just finished 5th and was done with them. She'd used them for all her children and they were all strong readers, which appealed to me. They work. No workbook so easy to progress through them at child's pace, spending as long as needed on each story. 

2. How did you learn/know how to teach the way you did with them? I create my own math for the kids as that comes super naturally to me. But teaching language arts and having a guide of what to teach does not come naturally to me with LA. (Which is ironic as I freelance write and love it.) But developing a thorough understanding of the English language in our kids is important to me.

I looked at various reading programs, I liked the ones that came with reading books rather than just learning it in a workbook as they co-ordinated perfectly. So I decided to just base phonics and sight words as they come up in the readers. I had them, they went to a higher level than other reading programs. When they were immediately reading and understanding what they were reading I knew they needed more. So we started exploring literary devices more. This comes naturally to me, math doesn't and we use MWC. If you need hand holding more, I would start the lesson with FLL which is very quick, then do a mcguffey lesson. Ask the child to point about a noun in the story they read aloud to you. Then perhaps do copywork of that sentence. That is what I plan to do, as I'm weak on naming grammar terms and they'll work together very well anyway. 

3. Have you used anything alongside McGuffey? 

Not yet. But as above I will be adding in First Language Lessons. I am currently using the originals, I have bought the revised set secondhand, when they arrive I'm going to decide where to place them, probably in the second reader. Then we're starting FLL. 

Thank you for sharing all of this, and your other comments as well. I had thought of using Mcguffey's but kind of went away from it as I have no idea how to manage the information in a presentable fashion making sure we cover everything he needs to know. But somehow you have me reconsidering using them again 🙂 And maybe adding in First Language Lessons. I know I can still apply our Spelling Analysis to the MR spelling words, so I think we will be okay there.

You mentioned having LA with a good mix of literature and poetry, did you ever consider using English Language Through Literature? After reading your comments and checking out the thread @Tanager suggested, I am now wondering if I should have that as an option as it would cover sentence diagramming (a few years in), mastering grammar and include good literature - seems like a nice balance between classical language arts and CM maybe. Maybe pairing that with McGuffeys would be a nice combo?

If that's the case, then I may have narrowed my options to using McGuffeys in combination with English Language Through Literature or First Language Lessons. .... Why are there SO MANY lovely LA curriculums haha. It makes the decision harder!

[Homeschoolz]

14 hours ago, FarmGalAtHeart said:

Thank you for sharing all of this, and your other comments as well. I had thought of using Mcguffey's but kind of went away from it as I have no idea how to manage the information in a presentable fashion making sure we cover everything he needs to know. But somehow you have me reconsidering using them again 🙂 And maybe adding in First Language Lessons. I know I can still apply our Spelling Analysis to the MR spelling words, so I think we will be okay there.

You mentioned having LA with a good mix of literature and poetry, did you ever consider using English Language Through Literature? After reading your comments and checking out the thread @Tanager suggested, I am now wondering if I should have that as an option as it would cover sentence diagramming (a few years in), mastering grammar and include good literature - seems like a nice balance between classical language arts and CM maybe. Maybe pairing that with McGuffeys would be a nice combo?

If that's the case, then I may have narrowed my options to using McGuffeys in combination with English Language Through Literature or First Language Lessons. .... Why are there SO MANY lovely LA curriculums haha. It makes the decision harder!

I have looked at the program briefly, though I'm not very familiar with it. From what I recall, I liked it but preferred the look of the higher levels and something I would consider further down the road, probably when we've done the first 3, or maybe all 4 volumes of FLL. Not to say there is anything wrong with the lower levels, I'm just fairly sure personally I preferred the look of it after the first few levels. I think it looked like a fairly similar version of what I'm doing. They read and do some lessons based on what they read. My children really enjoy the simplicity of that and a great blend of CM/Classical. I haven't done a ton of research on other programs as I know I want to continue having a large focus on mcguffeys at present. I'm finding it short, effective and inspiring a love of reading good quality literature and poetry. Reading progression and understanding is really clear as you work through the volumes. It's working very well so no need to fix it. I do sometimes look at literature based programs but just for ideas of books to put on the bookshelf to read whenever they want or for me to read aloud for fun. 

If you know that you want to do mcguffeys, maybe you could work on them for a week and then look at the two programs again, seeing what you feel would work best with them? I think with ELTL you'd probably prefer to use the mcguffeys for your little to read aloud at bedtime, or whenever works because it is more time consuming. But with FLL, there would be more time to work out of them as part of your lessons. 

 

[FarmGalAtHeart]

14 hours ago, Homeschoolz said:

I have looked at the program briefly, though I'm not very familiar with it. From what I recall, I liked it but preferred the look of the higher levels and something I would consider further down the road, probably when we've done the first 3, or maybe all 4 volumes of FLL. Not to say there is anything wrong with the lower levels, I'm just fairly sure personally I preferred the look of it after the first few levels. I think it looked like a fairly similar version of what I'm doing. They read and do some lessons based on what they read. My children really enjoy the simplicity of that and a great blend of CM/Classical. I haven't done a ton of research on other programs as I know I want to continue having a large focus on mcguffeys at present. I'm finding it short, effective and inspiring a love of reading good quality literature and poetry. Reading progression and understanding is really clear as you work through the volumes. It's working very well so no need to fix it. I do sometimes look at literature based programs but just for ideas of books to put on the bookshelf to read whenever they want or for me to read aloud for fun. 

If you know that you want to do mcguffeys, maybe you could work on them for a week and then look at the two programs again, seeing what you feel would work best with them? I think with ELTL you'd probably prefer to use the mcguffeys for your little to read aloud at bedtime, or whenever works because it is more time consuming. But with FLL, there would be more time to work out of them as part of your lessons. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, after reading through samples of ELTL I'm seeing that it would be too much to do that and McGuffeys fully together at the younger ages, we would need to do the McGuffeys more for free reading then.

Do you have a type of literary guide or resource you use to know what to teach/how to teach things like homophones, alliteration and other literary terms using the McGuffeys? I'm almost thinking that if there was a resource that was helpful, I can see myself using the McGuffeys along with our Latin and that would really be quite full (and like you said simple lessons). I am feeling more confident that I can do that as I am researching and reading through samples and realizing yes...I can do that with the McGuffeys!

[Nm.]

On 4/25/2023 at 9:27 PM, FarmGalAtHeart said:

So far for next year we will do Prima Latina and IEW Bible Heroes…..I am looking for a language arts curriculum to pair with these that is thorough and instills strong memorization and understanding to aid in future years. I also would like him to being learning sentence diagramming at some point.

Rod and staff is my personal favorite for all these reasons.  It’s also not worksheet based which has helped mine master things quickly/painlessly.  They are very independent with it after a quick how-to for new concepts.  Sometimes we might flip back a couple pages to review a concept.  It’s all there- so neat and concise.  Easy to understand.  

[FarmGalAtHeart]

38 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Rod and staff is my personal favorite for all these reasons.  It’s also not worksheet based which has helped mine master things quickly/painlessly.  They are very independent with it after a quick how-to for new concepts.  Sometimes we might flip back a couple pages to review a concept.  It’s all there- so neat and concise.  Easy to understand.  

I've looked at Rod and Staff briefly, and I maybe don't quite understand well how it works. How do you use it and what do you cover with it? Can you tailor it to different learning styles?

[Nm.]

Nm

Edited April 30, 2023 by Lovinglife123

[Homeschoolz]

6 hours ago, FarmGalAtHeart said:

Yes, after reading through samples of ELTL I'm seeing that it would be too much to do that and McGuffeys fully together at the younger ages, we would need to do the McGuffeys more for free reading then.

Do you have a type of literary guide or resource you use to know what to teach/how to teach things like homophones, alliteration and other literary terms using the McGuffeys? I'm almost thinking that if there was a resource that was helpful, I can see myself using the McGuffeys along with our Latin and that would really be quite full (and like you said simple lessons). I am feeling more confident that I can do that as I am researching and reading through samples and realizing yes...I can do that with the McGuffeys!

Are you familiar with those concepts? Would you be able to talk about them when they come up? Homophones I find come up pretty naturally, you can point out a to and ask if they've ever noticed them spelt differently. My children now sometimes point them out and say it's spelt that way because... (insert relevant context),  or I'll prompt them about it. I think when they're familiar with the concept, they'll observe them the more they read. I talk about other literary devices when they come up. Sometimes we'll make up our own version orally, making allowances that are phonetically plausible where relevant  at their current ages. Sometimes we'll talk about a character, and I ask them to tell me a story about what happened next, or if they went on an adventure elsewhere. Or if we weren't keen on a story, an alternative ending. This will transition into writing prompts when they get older. On longer pieces we can about plot, beginning, middle, end, did anything surprise you. 

Maybe I should create a guide of what you could potentially do with each piece, I have no idea whether or not there are any on the market. If there are, hopefully someone else can point you in that direction? 

[FarmGalAtHeart]

8 hours ago, Homeschoolz said:

Are you familiar with those concepts? Would you be able to talk about them when they come up? Homophones I find come up pretty naturally, you can point out a to and ask if they've ever noticed them spelt differently. My children now sometimes point them out and say it's spelt that way because... (insert relevant context),  or I'll prompt them about it. I think when they're familiar with the concept, they'll observe them the more they read. I talk about other literary devices when they come up. Sometimes we'll make up our own version orally, making allowances that are phonetically plausible where relevant  at their current ages. Sometimes we'll talk about a character, and I ask them to tell me a story about what happened next, or if they went on an adventure elsewhere. Or if we weren't keen on a story, an alternative ending. This will transition into writing prompts when they get older. On longer pieces we can about plot, beginning, middle, end, did anything surprise you. 

Maybe I should create a guide of what you could potentially do with each piece, I have no idea whether or not there are any on the market. If there are, hopefully someone else can point you in that direction? 

I am familiar with them, but with two younger ones running around I know I will forget about ones when planning or in a lesson haha! Just to have a list of potential ones to cover would be a blessing even! I could probably find a list online. I just hate to miss out on the fun because there was something I know a little less about too 😄 That would be a bummer!