MissLemon: transitioning into book discussions rather than reading comprehension

[Lori D.]

@MissLemon  -- I'm bringing your thoughts about transitioning from reading books and doing narrations or comprehension questions (elementary ages), to thinking about/digging into/discussing literature (middle school) from your thread ("Your Most Hated Book from school",  as that thread has so many posts now about hated books (lol) that your thought about what to focus on and how to transition was getting lost. 😉 Hopefully others will jump in with more ideas and experiences! 😄
 

10 hours ago, MissLemon said:

... This sounds silly, but I only realized tonight that the reason I am having trouble putting together a reading list is because I have not sorted out exactly what I want to accomplish with literature this year. This is the first year that I feel like kiddo is mature enough to start having book discussions, rather than simple reading comprehension type questions. He's ready to cross over from "Tell me what happened" to "Tell me what you think about this and why". 

Not silly at all. 😄 Somewhere in the middle school years is when a student is ready to start digging deeper into a work. But that's a big leap in thinking and takes time and also needs some teaching support to transition into that. From homeschooling my own DSs, as well as from teaching Lit. & Comp at my homeschool co-op classes for grades 7-12, I've come to see that there are a lot of components to moving from narration to analysis. 😉 

Do you have some "tools" to help you guys make that transition? Because it's really hard for most kids to suddenly go from narration of plot ("tell me what happened") to analysis -- seeing something bigger or deeper in the work that they have a thought about ("Tell me what you think about this"), AND then to back up that thought/argument/opinion/claim with reasons/support ("...and why you think this").

That's where it is useful to learn about some literary devices and how they "work" or show up in literature -- that gives you some "tools" with which to dig. Literary devices are things like conflict, foreshadowing, symbolism, imagery, irony, suspense, simile & metaphor, repetition, mood (atmosphere), point of view, etc.

It's also useful to learn about some literature topics, especially a few that provide insight to the specific work being read. That might be things like:
- literature genre and the conventions of a genre (and how the particular work you're reading fits in/is different from other works in that genre)
- "the hero's journey" cycle or the "coming of age" theme, and how that is playing out in the literature you're reading
- background info about the author and their times and what influenced them (and see how that shows up as important ideas or backdrop in the book)

Also, many students are very reticent about this type of literature discussion, and it's helpful to guide discussion or help them think through with guided questions. (It wasn't until about 10th/11th grade that my DSs would volunteer more than grunts and monosyllabic responses to literature, without that guidance -- and we started back in 7th grade. 😂 )

For all of those reasons, when homeschooling our DSs, I found it helpful to use excerpts from individual lit. guides for helpful literature topic info, and discussion question ideas to help us springboard into digging deeper into the work. We also used Lightning Lit. 7 and Lighting Lit. 8 in grades 7 and 8 as a very gentle, beginning literary analysis program.

Ideas for resources:
- Figuratively Speaking: Using Classic Literature to Teach 40 Literary Terms -- short lesson for each literary device; explains the device, shows an example from an excerpt from literature, then has a few activities for practicing the device
- "Figuratively Speaking paired with short stories" -- past WTM thread with links to poetry and short story ideas for each of the 40 literary devices covered in Figuratively Speaking
- Glencoe Literature Library -- free guides with background info on author/times; discussion questions; graphic organizers for working with ideas
- Garlic Press Discovering Literature -- (also at Rainbow Resource) meaty guides with background info; literature topic info; literary element info; discussion questions
- How to Read Literature Like a Professor for Kids

[annegables]

Thanks for starting this! I am in this position as well. Something that I hope is helping (and I know I have shared this before, so forgive the redundancy) is I read the books he is into (Harry Potter, anything Brandon Mull, etc) and we then go on long walk-and-talks and we discuss the books. He can discuss themes, climax, characters, motives, compare and contrast between different books, etc. I am hoping that by building these skills with books he really enjoys, that it will help with the transition to reading and understanding more complex literature.

Plus, I recognize my inadequacies in this area, both from my education and my natural bent, so I am going through the Center For Lit Teaching the Classics course, and that is really helping me flesh out my bare-bones knowledge.

[Shoeless]

Thank you for this, @Lori D.! I do have a few "tools" to utilize.  I was (briefly) an English lit major in college, so this is all familiar to me, but teaching kids is a whole other thing.  I actually took a class in Adolescent Literature, but did very poorly in it because the prof would ask "How would you teach this book?" and I'd say "Well, I'd never pick this book to teach in the first place, but..." and then she and I would argue, lol. So this is very much my weakest link in teaching kiddo. 

I'm going to look through your links now 🙂 

[Lori D.]

@annegables -- great job! That is awesome that you are already having great discussions, and that you both enjoy those discussions! We did most of our formal Lit. together. And many of the best discussions we had about books (or films) were more spontaneous/informal, and around the dinner table or in the car. 😄 BUT... those discussions didn't happen as regularly as I might wish, and because my bright thinking guys are also incredible laconic 😉, I found lit. guides and other resources to be helpful (sometimes, lol) when we were reading our Lit. to open up some discussion during our school hours.

@MissLemon -- do you have more than 1 student approaching the discussion age? It really helped here that DSs were close in age, and also by doing the Lit. all together, it was more of 3-person book club than all the weight of answering landing on the student. If you use some resources, you might alternate and hand the guide over to DD, and let her ask some questions and you answer -- that allows you to model what the thinking/discussing process might look like for DD. Also, you might take some of the pressure off by each picking a few questions and jotting down answers, and then come back together and discuss that way: "I saw this! What did you see?" And "This reminded me of that movie we watched, and here's how... What do you think?" And "I didn't get this part at all... How did you see this part?"

Also, it's very okay if your student doesn't have much to say -- not every book sparks a lot of discussion. And: younger students are just learning to formulate thoughts, and might not have more than "I liked it because..." Or "I hated it because..." That's okay! No need to beat that dead horse. 😉 You don't want to over-analyze and kill the interest in a book -- or worse, in reading. 😉 

[Shoeless]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this, @Lori D.  I fell down a rabbit-hole and started checking out guides and curriculum and had to pry myself away, lol. My son is 12, and he'll be the only kiddo working on this with me, (only child).

I finally realized that what I want to do this year for language arts is to develop kiddo's writing skills and introduce the vocabulary of literary analysis. I think our conversations about what is going on in a book might be more productive if he had that terminology under his belt. He is more of a math and science guy, and I think approaching this by first "defining our variables" will lead to a better outcome, lol. 

We have Michael Clay Thompson for grammar, poetry, and vocabulary.  I'd like to stick with that because he likes it so much.  Do you have any suggestions for a writing program and/or a literature program that specifically teaches literary terminology? For writing, kiddo will need something fairly direct in instruction.  Anything that's too touchy-feeling or is about "Playing with language!"or "Find your voice!" will sail right over his head.  He's not there yet, lol.  

I was looking at Lightning Literature and Mosdos Press. Do you have any thoughts on those programs? Or something else?