Whole to Parts Ideas for History & Science?

[bnwhitaker]

 If anyone has some direction with these two subjects I would love some 🙂  I'm thinking my DS is a whole to parts guy.  But I am still learning.  

He seems to want to know the big picture before anything else.  And if it is the details they don't seem to matter to him.   He wants to know who his day is going to go (that is if its not just free play all day - if so then he doesn't ask).  But if there is a schedule of any type he wants to know everything before bed the night before.  Always asking questions to understand what is that is going on.  Not okay to do step by steps really.  So Im thinking at least from what I've been learning he might be a whole to parts.  I've been doing things like real science 4 kids and its not working at all for him.  Just as an example.  

[PeterPan]

Ok, so some people are really into the parts to whole, whole to parts thing. When I bring that up with my phd educator friend, she snorts and says it's both. There are also words they'll use like "gestalt" and the idea of whether the person *can* see the whole.

However when I read your description, honestly it sounds more like anxiety. I can't remember all your other thread, but were ADHD and anxiety on the table? That's what it sounds like to me. He's trying to control his world. So anything you can do to increase predictability, increase structure, etc. will be good. So YES you should give him a calendar and let him know exactly what the PLAN is. There is a plan and it's knowable and this does not have to be something that is adding to his anxiety.

My ds was very anxious and controlling like that. It chilled quite a bit. Now he just needs a heads up to know if something will be different or if there is something coming he wasn't anticipating. 

As far as not understanding the Real Science 4 Kids, hmm. Didn't we ask you questions about his language? Is he reading or is he listening to you read the text? And are you giving him supports like a list of precise academic vocabulary and helping him form sentences using that vocabulary and helping him narrate the lesson using the vocabulary?

I think if he has language issues, you're going to need to get those eval'd and identified. We can't really figure that over the internet, because that takes evals. He clearly has some challenges.

An example of helping someone see the BIG PICTURE in history would be to use the Veritas Press cards. I used them with my dd successfully. I am an avowed HISTORY HATER, one of the few you'll ever meet. My mother ran a museum and my stepfather was a curator in another, so don't tell me that I'd love history if I had better exposure. I was dragged all over to history junk and I HATE it. But you know WHY I hate it? Because history is this never-ending fractal of detail, and I get lost. I literally graduated from college thinking all of history was on a timeline, non-overlapping. Then I started homeschooling and they're like no stuff overlaps! I had no idea of the connections, couldn't piece anything together, didn't know the BIG PICTURE. So the very thing history people like (the details that they piece together into narratives) was what lost me. I need frameworks, like the VP cards, into which I can fill details.

If you read SWB's Well-Educated Mind, she also suggests using your specialized interest or a genre area of endeavor as a way of organizing history, and that works too! So for instance you could study weapons through time and let all your history connect and be organized in that way. For me, music across time is really good. Anything you want.

So I'm with you on the value of frameworks and structure for organizing material for people like me who have issues with gestalt and tend to get lost in the weeds. It's an issue, sure. But in your case, it's possible you have more going on.

[bnwhitaker]

15 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, so some people are really into the parts to whole, whole to parts thing. When I bring that up with my phd educator friend, she snorts and says it's both. There are also words they'll use like "gestalt" and the idea of whether the person *can* see the whole.

However when I read your description, honestly it sounds more like anxiety. I can't remember all your other thread, but were ADHD and anxiety on the table? That's what it sounds like to me. He's trying to control his world. So anything you can do to increase predictability, increase structure, etc. will be good. So YES you should give him a calendar and let him know exactly what the PLAN is. There is a plan and it's knowable and this does not have to be something that is adding to his anxiety.

My ds was very anxious and controlling like that. It chilled quite a bit. Now he just needs a heads up to know if something will be different or if there is something coming he wasn't anticipating. 

As far as not understanding the Real Science 4 Kids, hmm. Didn't we ask you questions about his language? Is he reading or is he listening to you read the text? And are you giving him supports like a list of precise academic vocabulary and helping him form sentences using that vocabulary and helping him narrate the lesson using the vocabulary?

I think if he has language issues, you're going to need to get those eval'd and identified. We can't really figure that over the internet, because that takes evals. He clearly has some challenges.

An example of helping someone see the BIG PICTURE in history would be to use the Veritas Press cards. I used them with my dd successfully. I am an avowed HISTORY HATER, one of the few you'll ever meet. My mother ran a museum and my stepfather was a curator in another, so don't tell me that I'd love history if I had better exposure. I was dragged all over to history junk and I HATE it. But you know WHY I hate it? Because history is this never-ending fractal of detail, and I get lost. I literally graduated from college thinking all of history was on a timeline, non-overlapping. Then I started homeschooling and they're like no stuff overlaps! I had no idea of the connections, couldn't piece anything together, didn't know the BIG PICTURE. So the very thing history people like (the details that they piece together into narratives) was what lost me. I need frameworks, like the VP cards, into which I can fill details.

If you read SWB's Well-Educated Mind, she also suggests using your specialized interest or a genre area of endeavor as a way of organizing history, and that works too! So for instance you could study weapons through time and let all your history connect and be organized in that way. For me, music across time is really good. Anything you want.

So I'm with you on the value of frameworks and structure for organizing material for people like me who have issues with gestalt and tend to get lost in the weeds. It's an issue, sure. But in your case, it's possible you have more going on.

 

Thank you so much, I truly appreciate all your help.  I've learned a lot for all you've written.  Its funny as I learn more and more I see so much I have probably been missing.  Even for myself.  I have been listening to the book Overcoming Dyslexia and its funny.  Although I can hear and understand her its just too much.  I have always been I guess "big picture", like just tell me the basic facts about it and I can handle that.  But if you give me all these details that the book does, my head just can stand it.  I actually get so irritated and sick of hearing it.  Its just over the top for me with info.  I skip details in directions also and just want to hear the basics.  Somewhere in the details it boggs me down.  Although say when Im planning something like a school program or party Im more detailed and precise than almost anyone I know.  And I love it.  

I def think some anxiety is an issue for sure.  Not sure about ADHD.  I totally see what your saying about trying to control his world and how we can help to make that part a bit better. 

As far as history YES ha I get you!  My oldest lives on our ranch and HATES everything about it, so he says.  Im sure people will be telling him when he is older how he would probably love to live on land like they would.  Hahaha,  he will def set them straight on the fact he's completely aware & educated on what HE DOES NOT LIKE OR ENJOY.  I also like the later idea you gave for teaching history.  Makes sense.

I think with the science part, RS4K, I'm probably not being fair.  He's in a classroom with 8 others and he is very distracted by being with them.  One he loves to be with them and that's his fav part since its his only day he gets to. So he is pretty focused ON THEM. So if I remember right the last time I was reading he was making faces with one of the girls at the other end of the chairs haha.  Probably not to tuned in.  But when he and I read here at home cuddled on our he listens and understand.  No its not RS4K but other science books we read at home.  It is pretty detailed too (in the "parts" way?), RS4K.  Im just not sure he's gonna care too much about a plant cell at this age.  So I think I will take a diff route.

We took the barton test for him last night.  He passed Task B almost perfectly.  Task A he took a while to understand but once he did he got most of it correct.  But as far as their test I'd say, didn't pass Task A.  Although I know in one week of him practicing he would pass it.  Task C, He got 4 wrong but the rest were easy.  I would add thou that I think one of the reasons he got some wrong was it was too much in a row for him.  He can sit and do it but his brain seems to get sick of things quickly, "School Wise".  He doesn't want to any of it very long.  He begins to roll his eyes and not try as hard.  But when he is fresh he gets most correct.  Anyway all in all, I think for their test he would pass Task B, fail  Task A & C. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by bnwhitaker

[PeterPan]

19 minutes ago, bnwhitaker said:

  Anyway all in all, I think for their test he would pass Task B, fail  Task A & C. 

So what did you think of her recs on what to do if you fail part C? https://bartonreading.com/student-result/#sf  We've had people use both LIPS and FIS successfully. I think if he has no speech therapy issues and you want open/go that FIS might be your best choice. It's a little more pricey (because it's completely spelled out, open and go), but it's going to get you there, boom done. 

Personally, I would follow it up with Barton 1 and 2. I think after that decide what you think. Just saying that would be my advice. They are SPECTACULAR levels and much, much, much more detailed multisensory, hands-on, tier 3 intervention level, dyslexia specific intervention than AAS/AAR. If you just want to open it up and it works and you know it's going to work, those levels of Barton are likely to get you there. And you know, after that, do what you think, but that's my advice.

The other thing is that people think AAS is cheaper, but it's not necessarily. Barton will have terrific resale value. Your main tip there is to buy extra sets of the tiles. They accumulate with each level till you have all the pieces. As long as you do that, you can buy, use, and sell it off. It may actually end up *cheaper* than AAS+ AAR.

[PeterPan]

23 minutes ago, bnwhitaker said:

He can sit and do it but his brain seems to get sick of things quickly,

How old is he? If he's 7 or 8+, I wouldn't hesitate to do meds. Otherwise, you're gonna keep really short sessions and just keep working, working. I had to work with my ds that way when we started. We did 10-12 minute sessions, over and over throughout the day, 4-8 sessions a day. You can make lots of progress if you work in little chunks and just keep at it. Get him up, get him moving.

You know the other things you can be doing are work on working memory (there's never too much of that work!) and RAN/RAS. I've shared my files for that. Print, put in page protectors, and run him through them every day. Strong RAN/RAS is highly correlated with strong readers, and it tends to be low in dyslexics. It's something tested on the CTOPP, the major test they run. So technically, it would be nice if you'd go ahead and get evals and get a baseline there. What you might want to do is find ANYONE who can get you a CTOPP and some achievement testing run. That can be an SLP who specializes in reading, an OG tutor, a Barton tutor, a psych, an intervention specialist, ed therapist, anyone you can find right now who will do it. If you can get that baseline testing run, at least those things, you'll really be glad. Then, if it takes you a year to make psych evals happen (shut down plus normal 6 month wait for psych evals), then you can intervene in that year without worrying. He'll still be diagnosable, but just having that baseline will be really good. 

Around here, I can find a reading tutor to do that kind of testing for just $75. It can be a really low key thing, kwim? Just ask around, see what you can find. Maybe call/email psychs and see if they have some names of people. We got that tutor name from the swanky psych. Asking is free. 

[bnwhitaker]

17 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

How old is he? If he's 7 or 8+, I wouldn't hesitate to do meds. Otherwise, you're gonna keep really short sessions and just keep working, working. I had to work with my ds that way when we started. We did 10-12 minute sessions, over and over throughout the day, 4-8 sessions a day. You can make lots of progress if you work in little chunks and just keep at it. Get him up, get him moving.

You know the other things you can be doing are work on working memory (there's never too much of that work!) and RAN/RAS. I've shared my files for that. Print, put in page protectors, and run him through them every day. Strong RAN/RAS is highly correlated with strong readers, and it tends to be low in dyslexics. It's something tested on the CTOPP, the major test they run. So technically, it would be nice if you'd go ahead and get evals and get a baseline there. What you might want to do is find ANYONE who can get you a CTOPP and some achievement testing run. That can be an SLP who specializes in reading, an OG tutor, a Barton tutor, a psych, an intervention specialist, ed therapist, anyone you can find right now who will do it. If you can get that baseline testing run, at least those things, you'll really be glad. Then, if it takes you a year to make psych evals happen (shut down plus normal 6 month wait for psych evals), then you can intervene in that year without worrying. He'll still be diagnosable, but just having that baseline will be really good. 

Around here, I can find a reading tutor to do that kind of testing for just $75. It can be a really low key thing, kwim? Just ask around, see what you can find. Maybe call/email psychs and see if they have some names of people. We got that tutor name from the swanky psych. Asking is free. 

 

What is RAN/RAS?  Or where can I find the files?

 

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, bnwhitaker said:

 

What is RAN/RAS?  Or where can I find the files?

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4rcl6f0uo70esmv/AAAaGAHw3_YTMEQZSw_WI-t_a?dl=0

Try that.