The Controversies of English Grammar Instruction

[Hunter]

Kat asked me about my thoughts on grammar instruction in the CM science thread and I was downright snippy with her about not wanting to derail the thread. Sorry, Kat. :grouphug:

 

I have a migraine. I don't have a soapbox. I'm just answering Kat, here, and don't care what happens to the thread after I answer.

 

My boys and I learned Latin first. Then we applied what we learned in Latin to English and learned a bit more during high school, and for them the local junior college. Grammar wasn't a big deal; we had too much else going on and it wasn't a priority.

 

When I started tutoring and self-educating, and had more time to reflect in general and was not just trying valiantly to keep up with what my boys wanted and needed, I had to look at things a little deeper. I got caught up in what others were doing. I was hesitant to start from scratch and abandon what was familiar, despite realizing this model down right sucked when used with the current students.

 

I'm a bit of a socialist and don't believe in ONE right way to talk and write. I do not agree or disagree with Ebonics. 

 

What I do is what is convenient.  Harvey feels familiar coming from my Latin First and KJV only background. It is free. Most of the time it is good enough. Good enough is good enough.

 

For my lowest functioning students, I use Marvin Terban's Checking Your Grammar and Ruth Beechick's The Three R's if I'm lucky enough to own them at the time. If not, I use Harvey or wing it.

 

For my own self-education I use Writer's Digest Grammatically Correct when I am playing around with novel writing.

 

Today, with this migraine, I could care less about grammar and will just nod at anyone that is a die hard proponent of Ebonics. But, I like Kat, and wanted to answer her. And I didn't want to mess up Cami's CM science thread, writing about Ebonics and Latin first in the same thread.

[Kat w]

I'm so glad you linked this I was looking for it but couldn't find it.

 

Camy told me it was no problem :)

I knew...could sense she's a good egg. takes too much time to be upset...were too tired! Ha-ha...would rather laugh...or sleep lo

 

Ok...gonna read now. Glad you did this. :)

[Kat w]

Thats cool you all learned Latin first.

 

Teaching Latin teaches the base and roots to other languages.

 

Instead of a dead language, I would say it is the most alive language there is.

What other language has so many others at its root.

 

I saw someone said today on another thread they start teaching Latin in kindy.

My big kids started in 3rd and 1st and did great.

 

Today, my son commented how he heard one of his future professors use a word and he broke it down in sections using Latin. Boom, he knew the word and could keep up.

The 3 other kids that were listening also, had the deer in the headlights look...didn't hear much less comprehend anything from there on.

 

Wen the professor was done speaking...one of the kids said,

I have no idea what you just said . the professor shook his head and walked off. (The same word through the kids that had been public schooled).

They were lost. He was thankful mom taught him Latin.

 

Not only that, it sets the mind up for higher learning. My husband speaks 3 languages, insists all our kids learn Latin. (He was born in Rome, but thsts not the reason).

 

Our oldest daughter easily picked up 2 languages BC of her learning Latin.

My dyslexic daughter's English grammar comprehension greatly increased after starting Latin and she now fluently speaks Spanish.

 

I have probably made a mistake not teaching my autistic boys at least Latin roots.

I changed that. They are learning them. After we started about 2 weeks ago...my 12 started reading (he struggled before then) he still struggles, not near as much as he did AND he wrote a book!

 

Wrote and stapled well constructed sentences, fiction story about the a boy who went to the solar system .

 

Drew a front cover, page numbers, SPELLED CORRECTLY, ( most words) ...book.

I was amazed. Everyone is amazed.

I attribute thst mostly to starting heavy Latin roots , of course the stem offs from thst and the words we have BC of it.

 

But more importantly , it organized his brain enough to get more out of him for longer.

 

He wants to do the big kids latina Christiana book. I told him I'll order him prima latina.

 

I had the ultimate duh moment . why did I not listen to hubby before now.

 

Learning this has boosted confidenced, taught higher critical thinking, not to mention the English language .

 

Prima latina!....here we come :)

 

Happy mama....happy boy :)

I told you so dad lol :)

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this Hunter, and no worries about what you mentioned above. We're all human. I don't take offense :)

 

I'd love to hear any suggestions from anyone on Latin, teaching Latin, Latin programs , strategies. Any of it.

 

Thanks Hunter :)

Edited August 16, 2016 by Kat w

[Hunter]

I like Henle for Latin, especially if you are using it as a base to teach English Grammar. It teaches sentence diagramming. Henle has a very limited vocabulary to focus on the grammar. The vocabulary prepares for The Gallic War. There are all sorts of versions of the Gallic war available in interlinear and bilingual texts.

 

When my younger son read to a younger nephew from the Loeb bilingual text of The Gallic War, in both Latin and English, that child's eyes shone and he was just about trembling. Not only was he hero worshiping his older cousin, but his eyes were opened that the Romans and Greek wrote books. They are not just people written about, but people who wrote their own books and lots and lots of them.

 

Having a section on the bookcase of the little red and green Loebs is a daily visual reminder to children that these cultures produced writers.

 

I have taken my lowest functioning students to the library and shown them the Loeb Classics. Even though we only read the English, just seeing the Latin or Greek on the facing page is eye opening to them. It is a visual no one ever forgets.

 

I don't self-educate or teach Latin and Greek right now, and probably never will. I never say never though! If I did teach classical languages again, I am strongly dedicated to rigid grammar presentation with a small vocabulary geared to an easy book. The Gallic War for Latin. The New Testament and Euclid for Greek.

 

But English is not based first on Latin. It is its own language and an evolving language. Herein is where the controversy comes in. For some of us.

[vaquitita]

I have to admit I haven't seen the point in studying Latin. Maybe cause I've never studied it. :) Yes, then you could read all these old books, but is that really necessary? :) For most kids, no. I do want to cover latin roots, that I see the point of. (I'd love suggestions for what to use for that. I've considered using R&S spelling levels 7&8 because I heard it focuses on roots, and would be something they could do independently). BUT what you're saying about knowing latin helping with learning other languages intrigues me greatly. I have given  up teaching them another language because I don't speak one and it was just too hard for me to learn and homeschool and take care of babies. But if by doing latin they could then later learn other languages more easily, that could make it worth it for me. At least with Latin I don't have to worry about pronunciation so much, or being able to hold a conversation in latin. :D

 

I have mixed feelings about teaching grammar too. ;) When I look at early grammar books, it's usage, and my first reaction was 'you have to actually teach these things?' LOL. I would have thought these are just things kids pick up because they grow up surrounded by the English language. And later grammar books... I wonder what is the point of slaving away diagramming sentences for years? A well written book is considered well written because the language sounds beautiful to the ear. They don't follow formulas. Paint by number does not produce great art.  Over analyzing a painting or book makes you lose sight of the whole, and you lose the beauty of it. :) Diagramming feels like that. Confession: My name is Rebekah and I do not know what a gerund is. ;) BUT on the flip side, I have a friend who has/is learning another language and she says the grammar she's learned thru teaching her kids has helped her so much with learning the language (this language may be latin based, idk. i do know it doesn't use the same letters as other latin based languages, but the area of the world its from was part of the roman empire). Which does make me think there is some benefit from learning grammar. :D

Edited August 16, 2016 by vaquitita

[Guest]

I started Latin and Greek before English grammar for the older kids and didn't focus on English that much. My kids never got as far with the languages as yours, Hunter, but the lack of formal English grammar didn't seem to hold back dd27, my Enterprising Investigative Reporter and multifaceted scholar.

 

I'll be following this discussion since life happened and I not only have a "second chance baby" but also inexpensive access to the English grammar text I always longed for and couldn't afford for the millenials. Too bad I have the energy level of a fiftysomething and only so many hours a day and so much 8 year old attention span.

 

The English grammar looks like so much fun, but it may be an unnecessary distraction from Greek and unstructured independent reading and writing time for the little caboose baby.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Guest

[Hunter]

There is value in learning almost anything, but there isn't time or money to learn everything within our short life spans. We have to choose what will most support us on our individual paths.

 

My boys were on different paths from each other and different paths than the people in my life now. I try to adapt the best I can and teach who is in front of me. I don't change everything for every student; that just takes too much out of me. I deserve to be able to settle into some defaults. But my old defaults were failing the majority and I chose to switch up some things to better match up to my new world.

[Hunter]

Sometimes you really can lay too thick of a foundation, if you never get to building a house at all.

[Kat w]

I had a mini mommy meltdown when I realized my son was learning to read and do grammar and writing soooo much better when I started the Latin flashcards. We have lc. I feel horrible Latin has been the trick and the key all along.

 

I'm going to get a Latin program for him.

 

Gonna look at hunters suggestions. And prima latina.

He has his older siblings latina Christiana and wants to do it.

 

I should have followed his lead last year.

 

It would have saved us alot of trouble time frustration and heartache.

 

I taught the big kids Latin to teach them grammar, along side English grammar.

 

I need to read and look into the suggestions from Hunter.

Sigh. Poor lil guy .