CookIslandsMommy Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Hi there, The College we are interested in for DD offers Dual Credit (College Now) courses for High school students starting Grade 7. They only offer a special pricing for the dual credit papers you do in the last year of high school. So...if we do papers randomly from Grade 7 onwards, then we would pay a higher price. - We are still trying to find out (we have emailed them) what the prices are for online papers without this "special" price. We are thinking (because it looks like the degrees by the time our daughter gets to college, with the past increases as evidence for future increase...that her degree will be around $60k per year. Totalling $240K, but the time she finishes. This is just crazy!! So we are trying to work out whether we can do this or not. I am so glad we are preparing so far in advance. Assuming we took a whole year off after her high school finishes, and she spends 1 year doing online classes.... then...in the years prior Grades 9 onwards (perhaps)...she can do a few papers here and there to make up the total available online courses that will benefit her degree to 13 papers she would have completed before starting college officially. Meaning it looks like it would save us 1 year of fees. (Depending on what the online courses cost) For those of you that have done Dual Enrolments while doing high school - how much is too much for a high schooler? - Is it better for us to do as many of these dual enrolments in the gap year after high school b4 college? - Is is better to get more scholarships if she does AP papers or dual credit papers? - Is there any point in doing an AP Maths Course, in high school - that gives college credits - BUT do not look like they will form part of her degrees? Like Calculus isn't on her Early Childhood Degree, so if we did it, wouldn't this just be a waste of time? We could do lots of AP papers, that are useful and do have college credits for the last few years of high school, give us better scholarship options? We are non Americans, so all this college prep is really crazy new to us. Please be patient with me :) I am being very organised because making the right curriculum choices, including online courses in the near future will hopefully benefit this process of making the college cheaper. For example...she is currently in Grade 6, doing CLE Maths but I watched the Chalk Dust Basic Maths course - and she has already done the things he presented. Perhaps we will be able to jump ahead in Grade 6 with their Grade 7 course. For those of you who have done Chalk Dust - does this help with college credits? Have you found it easy to "sell" on the transcript as an Honours or AP course? I would appreciate any help Regards Sherid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Would you mind sharing what college you are looking at doing dual enrollment through? I had a bit of trouble following your post as you are using different terminology than I am used to. Your use of the word "papers" for example, I THINK is equivalent to what I would call "courses." Just for clarification: 1. Dual enrollment courses can only be taken while your student is in high school. Any courses taken after high school would be as a college student. So, dual enrollment can not be taken during a "gap year" after high school. 2. Unless a student is actually gifted, I can't imagine a 7th grader being successful in a true college level course. If the college has 7th graders routinely as dual enrollment students, I would look very carefully at the quality of their program. That's a red flag to me. My DD started taking dual enrollment courses at a local community college in 10th grade. She took 1 course the first semester, 2 courses each semester the next year, and 3 courses each semester her senior year. For some of these, we paid the full cost and for some, the state and the college provided some scholarships. This varies greatly from state to state and college to college. In the end, it isn't going to save us any money but is allowing DD to take fewer courses per semester now that she is an official college student. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Hi there, The College we are interested in for DD offers Dual Credit (College Now) courses for High school students starting Grade 7. They only offer a special pricing for the dual credit papers you do in the last year of high school. So...if we do papers randomly from Grade 7 onwards, then we would pay a higher price. - We are still trying to find out (we have emailed them) what the prices are for online papers without this "special" price. We are thinking (because it looks like the degrees by the time our daughter gets to college, with the past increases as evidence for future increase...that her degree will be around $60k per year. Totalling $240K, but the time she finishes. This is just crazy!! So we are trying to work out whether we can do this or not. I am so glad we are preparing so far in advance. Assuming we took a whole year off after her high school finishes, and she spends 1 year doing online classes.... then...in the years prior Grades 9 onwards (perhaps)...she can do a few papers here and there to make up the total available online courses that will benefit her degree to 13 papers she would have completed before starting college officially. Meaning it looks like it would save us 1 year of fees. (Depending on what the online courses cost) For those of you that have done Dual Enrolments while doing high school - how much is too much for a high schooler? - Is it better for us to do as many of these dual enrolments in the gap year after high school b4 college? - Is is better to get more scholarships if she does AP papers or dual credit papers? - Is there any point in doing an AP Maths Course, in high school - that gives college credits - BUT do not look like they will form part of her degrees? Like Calculus isn't on her Early Childhood Degree, so if we did it, wouldn't this just be a waste of time? We could do lots of AP papers, that are useful and do have college credits for the last few years of high school, give us better scholarship options? We are non Americans, so all this college prep is really crazy new to us. Please be patient with me :) I am being very organised because making the right curriculum choices, including online courses in the near future will hopefully benefit this process of making the college cheaper. For example...she is currently in Grade 6, doing CLE Maths but I watched the Chalk Dust Basic Maths course - and she has already done the things he presented. Perhaps we will be able to jump ahead in Grade 6 with their Grade 7 course. For those of you who have done Chalk Dust - does this help with college credits? Have you found it easy to "sell" on the transcript as an Honours or AP course? I would appreciate any help Regards Sherid It would be helpful if you'd share the college so people could look at their site and help you understand your options. Is the college in the US? Is your 7th grader ready for college level courses? My sons did dual enrollment starting in 11th grade. There is a lot of adjustment to do in this sort of course, including level of difficulty, pacing and interacting with other students and the instructor on an adult level. There was a lot of growth in my kids during their DE years. I know they would have been overwhelmed with some of the aspects as middle schoolers. It is good to have an eye on college costs early on. We found that ds was offered some aid from his schools that brought the price down. It very much depends on the school, the family income and the student demographics (test scores, transcript and other factors). I am wary of programs that are not widely transferable (ie, would be college credit towards a degree only at the home institution but not at the college across the state or across the country). It is up to the individual college to decide if they will accept transfer credit and what it applies towards. So I wouldn't pay for a course that wasn't likely to be accepted at lots of schools. Many college offer courses in lower level math, reading and writing that are not college level courses (the course number is often a 2 digit number like Math 35 instead of a 3 digit number like Math 115 - this isn't a firm rule). A course that is offered at a remedial level might seem like a good idea because it's where your student is now, but it might not transfer or apply to college work at all. Many colleges give much more financial aid to incoming freshmen (ie, fresh out of high school) than to transfer students (ie, graduated high school then took college courses at a college or online, then started at another college). The difference can be significant. A gap year usually stipulates that the student will not take college courses. Most of the time dual enrollment courses that are taken before high school graduation do not count against the student for determining college freshman status. AP Calculus might not be a degree requirement for early education. On the other hand, if she has the ability to complete calculus in high school, that may help her qualify for merit aid. It might also allow her to get additional education licensure down the road (ex, middle school teachers may have to have more credits in core subjects in addition to their education courses). AP stands for Advanced Placement and it is a specific type of course that is authorized by the College Board (same organization that does the SAT exam). It is possible to sit for the exam without taking an official course, however, it is not supposed to be annotated on the transcript as an AP course unless the College Board approved the syllabus (it is possible to do this as a homeschooler or online provider). In other words, you can't "sell" something as an AP course on the transcript unless the course went through the course audit with College Board. There are some detailed threads at the top of the high school board. I would recommend that you start reading through those. There are some lengthy discussions linked there that might give you a good start on thinking through how you want to prepare for and go through high school. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) I'm in the U.S., so my answers will reflect that. I know you are "down under", and your school system runs a bit differently there, so not sure that all my input below will be of help or not... ...The College we are interested in for DD offers Dual Credit (College Now) courses for High school students starting Grade 7. They only offer a special pricing for the dual credit papers you do in the last year of high school. So...if we do papers randomly from Grade 7 onwards, then we would pay a higher price… We are still trying to find out (we have emailed them) what the prices are for online papers without this "special" price. ...Assuming we took a whole year off after her high school finishes, and she spends 1 year doing online classes…. then...in the years prior Grades 9 onwards (perhaps)...she can do a few papers here and there to make up the total available online courses that will benefit her degree to 13 papers she would have completed before starting college officially. Meaning it looks like it would save us 1 year of fees. (Depending on what the online courses cost)... Alas, I'm only familiar with the U.S. high school / college system, and not at all familiar with the College Now program (although that looks like it is offered in a number of U.S. public high schools), so I can't help with these specific questions… Just out of curiosity, is this the College Now program you are referring to?? ...For those of you that have done Dual Enrolments while doing high school - how much is too much for a high schooler? How much dual enrollment is too much will absolutely depend on the student and the courses. A very general suggestion is to start with 1 course the first semester in a subject area that is not a weak area for the student, and see how the student does. Gently increase as the student seems able to handle the load. In the U.S., high school is 4 years long (9th to 12th grades), and students generally are about 13-14 years old when they start and about 17-18 years old when they graduate; so students on the older range -- ages 16-18 -- tend to handle dual enrollment better, and are able to handle more DE courses per semester. But again, this varies widely per student. Some students on these boards were taking all DE by age 16 -- a full college student load of 4 courses each semester. My DSs were ready to try out ONE dual enrollment course each semester in their 12th grade year at ages 17/18. Remember, dual enrollment moves at a much quicker pace and covers more volume of material than a high school class, as well as material that is usually more advanced than high school material, so it takes time for a high school student to "ramp up" to college speed / volume / rigor. Also, dual enrollment grades are part of the student's permanent college transcript, and do count towards the student's permanent college GPA, so if you are in need of a high GPA to help for scholarships, you'll want to be careful to make sure your student is absolutely ready and able to do the work, learn the material, AND earn a high grade. Also, often, only grades of "A" and "B" will count towards a degree, so if seeking to knock out college credits in advance in order to reduce overall time in college and therefore reduce overall cost, it's important to get good grades so the credits DO transfer and count towards the degree. The other factor in how many dual enrollment credits to take is -- how many will transfer to the student's future college? And what if your young student decides late in high school to attend some other college -- will the credits transfer to that other college? Research, research, research, to decide what courses are most likely to transfer AND count towards a future degree program -- at more than just one college. - Is it better for us to do as many of these dual enrolments in the gap year after high school b4 college? A student absolutely can NOT take ANY credit courses in a gap year between high school and before college, or the student loses freshman status and becomes a "transfer student" -- AND as a result, loses any scholarships awarded to freshmen. The largest scholarships, and the majority of renewable scholarships (rather than one-time / one-year scholarships) are awarded to freshmen. There are far fewer transfer scholarships awarded, and they are usually for smaller amounts and are usually one-time awards. ... Is is better to get more scholarships if she does AP papers or dual credit papers? … We could do lots of AP papers, that are useful and do have college credits for the last few years of high school, give us better scholarship options? ... Not familiar with what "dual credit papers" are from your system, so can't comment there. As far as whether AP or dual enrollment is the better option -- again, that really varies so widely due to student goals and to each individual college's policies on AP and dual enrollment (i.e., which do they accept as college credit? and are there limits on how many will be accepted? etc.) As far as scholarships… High scores on the ACT or SAT tend to be the first thing colleges look at for awarding scholarships. Esp. if your student's ACT or SAT score puts her in the top 5-10% of incoming freshman, her chances of a large scholarship award goes way up, as her high test score boosts the college's statistics. This can make looking around and comparing colleges and their incoming freshman statistics very worthwhile. ...We are thinking (because it looks like the degrees by the time our daughter gets to college, with the past increases as evidence for future increase...that her degree will be around $60k per year. Totalling $240K, but the time she finishes. This is just crazy!! So we are trying to work out whether we can do this or not... Yes it is crazy! And while there are many benefits to a college experience beyond just the degree, you really have to weigh how much you can afford a college experience. Clearly, if your DD is only going to be able to earn about $50K/year, almost a quarter of a million dollars in debt is completely un-doable. Realistically, full ride scholarships (pays for all of tuition AND other expenses such as room & board and books) have become very rare. Depending on the college, being in the top 5-10% of a school's ACT/SAT test scores can sometimes land the student a full tuition scholarship (pays for just tuition; student still pays full price for room & Board, books, transportation, and other expenses). More typically, because there is far less merit aid $$ to spread around, colleges tend to award partial scholarships, so students with good grades and test scores might receive a scholarship of anywhere from $1000-$5000, or up to a half-tuition scholarship. In the US, beyond tuition other expenses for attending a college tend to run about $10-$15K/year (for room & board, books, supplies, transportation, and personal expenses). So even if a student can land a full tuition scholarship for all 4 years, unless the student can have free lodging/meals by living at home or with a relative, you will likely need to plan on $40-60K in total other expenses. ... Early Childhood Degree... Early Childhood Education occupations in the U.S., even with a 4-year Bachelor's degree, often do not pay too well, depending on where you live. See the US Bureau of Labor's Occupational Outlook Handbook for some helpful details on salary, education required, and future outlook on a variety of occupations -- here are several in your DD's field of interest of Early Childhood Education: - Childcare Worker --high school diploma to 2-year Associate's degree; avg. = $20-$25K/year - Preschool Teacher -- 2-year Associate's degree, avg. = $28K/year - Preschool and Childcare Director -- 4-year Bachelor's degree, avg. = $45K/year - Kindergarten and Elementary Teacher -- 4-year Bachelor's degree, avg. = $54K/year - Special Education Teacher -- 4-year Bachelor's degree, avg. = $56K/year The current advice on accruing student debt for a college education is to have no more TOTAL debt than the amount you will earn as a first-year/entry level employee in your field. So, your DD would want to keep the total debt for earning a 4-year degree between approx. $20-50K, depending on what area of study she plans to go in to. You will have to weigh the pros and cons of various options to decide what is the best route for your student. There are SO many factors that play into making that decision... - family finances - scholarships/financial aid - location - credit acceptance / transferability - college with the degree program that is the best fit for your student - college with the programs, opportunities, extras, and student population that best fit your student Yes, there are ways to reduce college costs; below are three ideas of AP tests, CLEP tests, or all-online degree. There are also more ideas in the thread: "s/o Cautionary Tale/high college costs -- a brainstorm $$ ideas thread!" (thread with lots of out-of-the-box ideas for reducing college costs). AP tests "Pros" to AP tests include: tend to be widely accepted, high scores earn college credit and show advanced level of work by the student, and APs are helpful for admission to selective/competitive schools. "Cons" to AP tests include: sometimes difficult for homeschoolers to line up a school to allow the student to test with their students; a year of work and the score rides on a single test -- cannot re-test; difficult for a student to take enough APs to knock off more than 1 semester of college credits in advance. CLEP tests "Pros" to CLEP tests include: accepted by many colleges; schedule at a time convenient to you; student can study / test / accrue credits at a much faster rate than AP, and can conceivable knock out up to 4 semesters of credits in advance of starting college; student only needs a passing score in order to earn the credit; if the student fails to pass the test, the student can re-test after a several-month waiting period. "Cons" to CLEP include: colleges limit total number of credits via CLEP they will accept; no GPA attached to the credit which can be a "con" if a large number of the credits have no grade/GPA and the student is applying for a Master's program requiring a GPA at a later date; if the student transfers, the new university may not accept some of the CLEP credits towards the degree program, but only count them as "electives". All-Online 4-year Bachelor Degree If your DD would do well with an all-online degree (usually accrued through a combination of CLEP tests and online courses), a number of US universities offer lower-cost all-online Bachelor degrees in Early Childhood Education: "Top 30 Affordable Early Childhood Education Degree Online Programs (Bachelor's)". ...she is currently in Grade 6, doing CLE Maths but I watched the Chalk Dust Basic Maths course - and she has already done the things he presented. Perhaps we will be able to jump ahead in Grade 6 with their Grade 7 course... Unfortunately, Chalk Dust does not have a placement test. From the website's FAQ, here is how they suggest to place your student: How do I know what program to use for my child, or do you have an assessment test? No assessment test - What was your students last completed math program? Your student will start with the next math program and we have programs for Basic Math (Grade 6), Prealgebra (Grade 7), and on through Calculus 1. Each program begins with a review of previously learned material. All orders include student technical support, and a 30-day money back guarantee during which time you can exchange for a different program or receive a refund. We have been in business for 20 years. To see a "Course Outline", please go to www.chalkdust.com, scroll down and click on a program from Basic Math through Calculus 1, click on Course Outline and press print. You can download a sample of teaching, or just call 800-588-7564 and we will mail you a free DVD Evaluation Sampler with 20-30 minutes of teaching for each program and with many Frequently Asked Questions. ...For those of you who have done Chalk Dust - does this help with college credits? Chalk Dust is usually considered to be a more rigorous math program, and any more rigorous math program will be helpful to a student who plans on taking math up through Calculus, and will also be helpful preparation for college level math courses. ...For those of you who have done Chalk Dust - does this help with college credits? Have you found it easy to "sell" on the transcript as an Honours or AP course? Colleges do not look at choice of curricula to determine how advanced a student is. Also, because high schools vary so widely as to what they call "honors", colleges have no standardized way to gauge what "honors" means, so colleges don't tend to assign much weight to Honors courses. What colleges DO value is the standardized test scores from AP tests (which show college level of work), or the ACT or SAT test scores (used for comparing students for college admissions and scholarship awards). Also, SAT Subject (aka SAT II) test scores (which show student is working well at a high school level of work) are also noted by colleges, and can be useful to verify homeschool transcript grades. ...Have you found it easy to "sell" on the transcript as an Honours or AP course? Be very careful here! A course may ONLY be labeled as "AP" if your syllabus for the course has been submitted to College Board and officially approved by College Board. See College Board info on how to submit a syllabus in this FAQ: "AP Course Audit": How can homeschool educators label their courses AP?If you are a home school educator wishing to label your courses "AP," you can create an account on the AP Course Audit homepage at www.collegeboard.org/apcourseaudit by clicking the "Create Account Now" link, then selecting “Home School Providerâ€. Once you have created an account, you will be able to submit your Course Audit materials. If you do not have an account and would like to contact us, please use the "Contact Us" link on the Course Audit homepage or call 877-APHELP-0. You can self-study for AP tests WITHOUT taking a formal AP course, and without having to submit a syllabus. In that case, for the transcript, you would list the course without the AP in the formal title, but list that AP test was taken. Example: "World History, with AP test". BEST of luck as you research and work through all of these many tricky questions! Warmest regards, Lori D. ETA: LOL -- should have read previous posters first before responding, as a good chunk of my post is a rehash of what Sebastian already had said more succinctly before me… ;) Edited June 8, 2016 by Lori D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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