public school testing?

[kfrench]

Hi my hubby had me send my 2 girls back to PS this year. They had been HS up until this point. DD1 is in 2nd grade and having attention problems and reading way below grade level. I know she is a smart kid but she was placed in the low reading and math groups.

My other daughter was placed in 4th grade couldn't handle it and was placed back into 3rd grade. But she is still struggling way below grade level in reading and low group for Math. She has always struggled to pick up each new concept. Especially with spelling and reading.

So now it has been 3 months and so my husband decided they both need to be tested for learning issues and the younger daughter for the attention issues also. So has anyone been through the PS testing system and could anyone give me an idea of what to expect. Both their teachers put them into a remedial reading class this last week. Both teachers said they were glad that we asked the school to do the testing as they had been doing the ground work to request testing for both girls. I have no idea what tests they will do and what they will come up with and how long the process will take. Any advice or support would be greatly appeciated. For now I am just home with my 3 y.o. but I hope to talk my husband into letting the girls come back home next year. Especially since they really are not learning very well in a classroom enviornment. also have a 15 y.o son that is in accerated classes with kids 2 years older than him. So how did I get kids that were such opposites when it comes to accademics who knows.

 

Kris

[Claire]

The school will contact you with proposed tests and you need to agree to those tests before they can be done. Because so many of the problems seem to be related to reading, I would do some research on the tests they propose before agreeing to them. The LAC is a good test of phonemic awareness, and the CTOPP is a good test of decoding skills (especially if they do the nonsense word version of the subtests), but there are many other tests of reading that they might propose.

 

Basically what the school does is test IQ and achievement. If there is a big gap between the two, the student qualifies for services (IEP). When that happens, you are supposed to meet with the school and as a team decide on what services should be provided to meet the child's needs.

 

Schools cannot diagnose anything, including attention disorders. All of their testing has to be educational type testing and all of their conclusions have to relate to education. They cannot, for example, diagnose dyslexia or attention deficit disorder (ADD).

 

There are a lot of ins and outs to this process. LDonline is a website with general information about the process and what to expect. You might want to start reading some of the articles there. I don't know how active the forums are anymore, but they used to be a good resource for parents too.

[Doran]

....

 

Schools cannot diagnose anything, including attention disorders. All of their testing has to be educational type testing and all of their conclusions have to relate to education. They cannot, for example, diagnose dyslexia or attention deficit disorder (ADD).

 

There are a lot of ins and outs to this process. LDonline is a website with general information about the process and what to expect. You might want to start reading some of the articles there. I don't know how active the forums are anymore, but they used to be a good resource for parents too.

 

I'm glad to have the resource site above and will take a look at it later today, hopefully. Things are shifting in our familiy and, after six years of homeschooling, I have the feeling that our oldest will go to public high school next year. That leaves the younger child, the one with learning delays, at home alone, which may or may not be a good fit.

 

Claire, about the fact that schools can't diagnose anything -- you say they can't diagnose dyslexia and that all conclusions must relate to education. How does that work with something like dyslexia? I don't understand how dyslexia isn't related to education, but I know that's not the point. I'm just missing the real point.

 

Doran

[Claire]

Claire, about the fact that schools can't diagnose anything -- you say they can't diagnose dyslexia and that all conclusions must relate to education. How does that work with something like dyslexia? I don't understand how dyslexia isn't related to education, but I know that's not the point. I'm just missing the real point.

 

That's a great question.

 

Dyslexia and ADD/ADHD are considered medical diagnoses. An educational facility would be practicing medicine without a license if it made those diagnoses. Schools in recent years have become much more aware of the legal implications of giving advice about medical conditions, so they often don't even use the word dyslexia. What they call it instead is a "specific reading disability". That is the educational terminology for difficulty learning to read.

 

It helps to learn the school's terminology, limitations, processes (e.g., the assessment process and the IEP process). They do these things all the time, but parents come in to do all this for the first time. That's why schools tend to end up dictating everything. Parents are supposed to be given equal decision-making power, but they often don't use it effectively.

[AngieW in Texas]

When the ps tested Hannah, they did WISC IV (IQ), WJ III (achievement), and CTOPP. They were just going to do the WISC and WJ, but I asked them to do the CTOPP as well.

 

They diagnosed her with a severe learning disability in reading and written expression. They said they could not diagnose dyslexia.

[Kathy in MD]

The school will contact you with proposed tests and you need to agree to those tests before they can be done. Because so many of the problems seem to be related to reading, I would do some research on the tests they propose before agreeing to them. The LAC is a good test of phonemic awareness, and the CTOPP is a good test of decoding skills (especially if they do the nonsense word version of the subtests), but there are many other tests of reading that they might propose.

 

Basically what the school does is test IQ and achievement. If there is a big gap between the two, the student qualifies for services (IEP). When that happens, you are supposed to meet with the school and as a team decide on what services should be provided to meet the child's needs.

 

Schools cannot diagnose anything, including attention disorders. All of their testing has to be educational type testing and all of their conclusions have to relate to education. They cannot, for example, diagnose dyslexia or attention deficit disorder (ADD).

 

There are a lot of ins and outs to this process. LDonline is a website with general information about the process and what to expect. You might want to start reading some of the articles there. I don't know how active the forums are anymore, but they used to be a good resource for parents too.

 

Because speech problems or so common I would have thought that would also be tested. As a preschooler my ds was tested by the school system for speech and language problems.

[Doran]

Dyslexia and ADD/ADHD are considered medical diagnoses. An educational facility would be practicing medicine without a license if it made those diagnoses. ...

 

Okay, that makes lots of sense. So, then, my next question (and OP...I hope this is helpful discussion for you. I don't mean to be hijacking your post!): Is school testing enough, or do most parents/children benefit from and also need testing which gives specific diagnoses? IOW, are the school's tests reliable tools for children to receive the help they need - for example, in the case of the OP's kids, or my own where any learning disability may be mild, or where there may not be enough "discrepancy" for them to qualify for intervention/IEP's etc.

 

Bear with me. Most of language is still new to me. Just because I've tossed out words like IEP and discrepancy doesn't mean I'm really well versed in the terminolgy. ;) Layman's explanations are most helpful to me.

 

Thanks!!!

 

Doran

[Mandamom]

>>>> Is school testing enough, or do most parents/children benefit from and also need testing which gives specific diagnoses? IOW, are the school's tests reliable tools for children to receive the help they need - for example, in the case of the OP's kids, or my own where any learning disability may be mild, or where there may not be enough "discrepancy" for them to qualify for intervention/IEP's etc.>>>>

 

 

This is what I faced. I had my oldest tested through the schools while he was homeschooling and the testing was helpful to me to further research (using mostly Mel Levine stuff) to figure out where his weaknesses were/are. There was a couple of big discrepancies, in my mind, but they didn't see it as wide enough so they weren't interested in dealing with it.

 

My younger dd was tested by the schools while she was in school (in October) and there was a big discrepancy in her processing scores. They did mention it but didn't feel it was enough for services. They just mentioned to compensate for it in the classroom. They were willing to give services for her high verbal scores so that was a good thing.

 

My point in this is that getting the testing for me was very helpful as it gave me information that I didn't have and confirmed some things for me. If I were looking for a more specific diagnosis I'm not sure that I would have been satisfied with the testing. For my oldest stepson, I was able to compensate some when I was homeschooling and using Levine's books as a guide I was able to figure out more but I never felt I got quite enough to make a complete difference. It is possible though that we were doing all that could be done.

 

Today, he is an honor rolll student at a local private school doing wonderfully well so who knows. .

 

I now feel like I"m rambling so I'll stop.

 

Bear with me. Most of language is still new to me. Just because I've tossed out words like IEP and discrepancy doesn't mean I'm really well versed in the terminolgy. ;) Layman's explanations are most helpful to me.

 

Thanks!!!

 

Doran

[Claire]

Is school testing enough, or do most parents/children benefit from and also need testing which gives specific diagnoses?

 

It depends on the individual child and the specific problem(s). If reading is the only area of concern and the school does good tests (such as the CTOPP) that identify the major areas of difficulty, the school testing can be enough.

 

Schools provide services for only the lowest-scoring children. If your child misses a cut-off and doesn't qualify for services from the school, then the testing may have given you enough information to know to hire a private tutor.

 

There is really no "extra value" in having a medical diagnosis of dyslexia with the possible exception of high school/college/adult life when this diagnosis may sometimes help secure accommodations as a disability. (Usually a diagnosis of dyselxia alone is not enough. You also have to provide a lot of documentation of educational disability along with it.)

 

School testing is by no means comprehensive or in-depth, though. For some children you may want to seek out private evaluations. A school OT eval, for example, usually does not include an assessment of sensory integration. Private OT evals do. In most cases, private evals are more comprehensive and thorough because they are not limited to direct educational implications.

 

Some problems qualify evals for medical insurance coverage too. For example, a child with an articulation problem or suspected receptive or expressive language problems usually qualifies for a complete speech and language eval by a speech pathologist, covered by medical insurance. The same applies to an occupational therapy evaluation if the problem seems to involve gross or fine motor skills, balance, or physical coordination.

 

However, medical insurance will *not* cover these evals if the reason for them can be interpreted as educational in nature. For example, my dd qualified for a speech/language eval because of her articulation deficits (a physical problem). The eval itself, however, included assessment of her phonemic awareness and decoding skills -- which showed major deficits. Had the referral been made because she had difficulty learning to read, insurance would not have covered the cost. However, because the referral was made for a physical problem, the complete eval was covered. That's why I always recommend finding a good private speech pathologist or occupational therapist first. Call them and describe your child, ask if an eval would be a good idea, and then ask them about insurance coverage for the eval. Clinics deal with many insurance companies on a daily basis, and they can usually tell you *exactly* how a referral needs to be worded or coded for your specific policy. Take that information to your GP so he/she can write up the referral correctly.

 

If the child has problems other than just reading, it makes a lot of sense to get private evals as well as school testing. Problems with receptive language (understanding, remembering oral directions), expressive language (talking, grammatical constructions, word retrieval), and speech articulation all qualify for medical insurance coverage of a complete speech and language eval (which typically includes assessment of phonemic awareness and decoding skills).

[Claire]

Because speech problems or so common I would have thought that would also be tested. As a preschooler my ds was tested by the school system for speech and language problems.

 

I think preschool screens always include speech and language assessment and occupational therapy assessment. However, for older children already in the school system, I think speech and OT evals are done only if the parents or teachers have noticed something in those areas and request the evals.

[Doran]

This definitely gives me a clearer picture. I'm concerned about next year. With dd13 likely returning to school, I'm wondering what the home dynamic will look like for dd11. As we did with her sister, I would be VERY hesitant to send her to public school in middle school. BUT...I also have worries about how dd11 will do at home on her own. She is exceedingly social and rather dependent on the company of others. Energetically, she wears me out - a chatter box and near-perpetual motion. I'm wondering how we'll manage, just us two.

 

We certainly won't toss in the towel immediately, but if it just doesn't work with the new arrangement, I'm wondering what will happen to this child in a school environment. She's in 4th grade math and language arts, which is about a grade level below where I think she'd be in a school setting. Even though she *could* be in 6th grade now, I think it's quite possible she would have repeated a grade at some point - maybe first. She didn't turn 11 until Dec 28, so she's a LATE birthday kid. Anyway, that's a long way of saying that all this information is very useful.

 

Doran

[Laurie4b]

They often do do a speech and language evaluation if there are problems with reading and writing.

[kfrench]

I do have one of my daughters- my second grader with the attention issues signed up for an appointment with a Educational psycologist. The appointment is in March. The psycologist's paperwork suggested getting what testing we could from the PS since it would be free and having the testing done privately could cost alot. So that is covered and we will see where we need to go with daughter #2 based on what the school says. I don't think they will qualify for services but both teachers wanted them tested so maybe they will. I do not like the idea of my kids being in special ed and I will really push to teach them at home if that is what comes from it. I have told my husband that if the testing shows that they will not do well in a classroom setting that I would rather that I homeschool them so they can suceed in school. They have an awsome reading specialist at their school for kids that are below grade level but not special ed. And I know they use Spalding phonics which I have used with the girls at home. I am hoping to talk to her this week. I'll let you know how it all goes.

[kfrench]

Hi just another question following up the PS testing questions. The school suggested that I take my daugther who is having attention issues to a pediatrican and get diagnosed there? From my experiance it seems MD's just perscribe medication? Has anyone gone this route. What are good questions to ask and what has been your experiance. I also have an appointment with an Educational psycologist but my husband wants me to persue all routes.

 

Krista

[Claire]

Hi just another question following up the PS testing questions. The school suggested that I take my daugther who is having attention issues to a pediatrican and get diagnosed there? From my experiance it seems MD's just perscribe medication? Has anyone gone this route. What are good questions to ask and what has been your experiance. I also have an appointment with an Educational psycologist but my husband wants me to persue all routes.

Krista

 

Wow! That is a huge topic all by itself!

 

Attention problems are a symptom of many different types of disorders, not just ADD. For this reason, it's a very good idea to rule out other problems first that are easier to diagnose -- such as sensory integration disorder, visual processing disorder, and auditory processing disorder.

 

GPs and pediatricians are not sufficiently specialized to diagnose ADD/ADHD. It's much better to go to a doctor who specializes in this category of disorders. What happens in real life is that most people go the ped or GP and that doctor prescribes a drug to try out. These drugs work *only* on attention problems that are caused by the type of ADD/ADHD that involves chemical imbalances in the brain. (There are other types of ADD/ADHD.) They try the drugs on a trial basis to see if they help. IMO, this is a very back-a**ed way of approaching the problem.

 

I would not pursue drugs for ADD/ADHD until towards the end of your diagnostic journey, having ruled out or remediated other problems first.

[kfrench]

yes, my husband does not like the idea of putting her on medication and so I told him I didn't see much point in taking her to a Pediatrician unless we wanted to persue that route. Personally I think that if we don't find something else that will help with the attention problems that medication would be ok if it helped her. Because at this point her inability to focus causes her problems at school and home and she can't hardly think straight. She gets in trouble at home for not listening and it really peves my husband when he is talking right to her and she still won't listen. But I can see that it is not defiant and that she is trying her best to listen and do what she is asked. I just think that an 8 year old should be able to get ready for school etc without her mom checking on her every 3 minutes literally to make sure she is on task. She will often just sit on her bed thinking or looking in the mirror or looking at a book or doing nothing and be totally clueless that time has passed and she has things she is suppose to be doing. Also if I tell her 2 things to do , have her repeat it back to me twice then she still can't remember what the second thing is she is suppose to do by the time she gets the first thing done. Sigh, She is so sharp and quick too when she is paying attention. She is also a bit clueless socially with other kids. She doesn't understand the pecking order at school and she gets so upset when no one wants to play what she wants to play. But she will also have a group of girls over and prefer to watch tv while they play with her sister or to do her own thing while everyone else plays together. She's a tomboy. Sorry going off on a tangent. she is also rough,and physical harsh with her 3 year old brother and seems to not know how to relate to him gently. I am happy that we are finally getting to the bottom of the problems the girls have. I hope that it will be helpful for them. I also hope the youngest takes after his dad and be a little genious or even average would be great. So far even at 3 he is ahead of his sisters they were still struggling with color and shapes at 5 and he has those down and is learning his letters and numbers. Accelerated is much easier than behind in my experiance!!!

 

Kris

[Claire]

she is also rough,and physical harsh with her 3 year old brother and seems to not know how to relate to him gently.

 

Well, for sure I would start with an occupational therapy evaluation. Many of the symptoms you give are typical side effects of a sensory processing disorder and/or vestibular system deficits caused by an auditory processing disorder. An OT eval should give you some insight and a direction for therapy. If many vestibular problems show up in the OT eval, you may want to pursue an auditory processing evaluation in addition to any occupational therapy that is recommended.

 

Some children do need medication for attention (especially, from what I've seen, children with ADD-inattentive subtype). However, other possible causes of the attention problems should be checked out first.

[elizam]

Wow! That is a huge topic all by itself!

 

Attention problems are a symptom of many different types of disorders, not just ADD. For this reason, it's a very good idea to rule out other problems first that are easier to diagnose -- such as sensory integration disorder, visual processing disorder, and auditory processing disorder.

 

GPs and pediatricians are not sufficiently specialized to diagnose ADD/ADHD. It's much better to go to a doctor who specializes in this category of disorders. What happens in real life is that most people go the ped or GP and that doctor prescribes a drug to try out. These drugs work *only* on attention problems that are caused by the type of ADD/ADHD that involves chemical imbalances in the brain. (There are other types of ADD/ADHD.) They try the drugs on a trial basis to see if they help. IMO, this is a very back-a**ed way of approaching the problem.

 

 

 

I would not pursue drugs for ADD/ADHD until towards the end of your diagnostic journey, having ruled out or remediated other problems first.

and yet, the way ADHD is dxed in *our* area, you just go to the dr. and they dx it. There aren't any educational psychologists, neuropsychs, etc. There are no support groups for parents. Kids get on meds and that's it. The other alternative is holding your kid back a grade or two.

 

Not saying this is how it is everywhere, but I feel like an IDIOT wanting more testing and realizing that no one has any idea what I am talking about and certainly cant refer me to anyone who would know. :confused: !!!!!!!!!!!

[Claire]

and yet, the way ADHD is dxed in *our* area, you just go to the dr. and they dx it. There aren't any educational psychologists, neuropsychs, etc. There are no support groups for parents. Kids get on meds and that's it. The other alternative is holding your kid back a grade or two.

 

Not saying this is how it is everywhere, but I feel like an IDIOT wanting more testing and realizing that no one has any idea what I am talking about and certainly cant refer me to anyone who would know. :confused: !!!!!!!!!!!

 

That's awful! I think your best recourse is to do a lot of internet research. Do you live in a rural area?

 

My dd does not have ADD/ADHD so I know less about this area than many others. I did find several informative websites by Googling. Here's one of them. I will spend some more time later on today searching to see if I can find a website that lists specialists in this area.

 

From what I know, it's often up to the parent to explore the other possibilities for symptoms -- for example, getting an occupational therapy eval, a speech and language eval, a developmental vision eval, and an auditory processing eval. I think that often, during the course of doing these evals and talking to people, the names of medical doctors who specialize in ADD/ADHD start coming up. Towards the end of this process, when symptoms are still a problem, is often when parents end up going to the specialist to see if medication may help.

 

Often parents who go through this process end up being *much* more knowledgeable than most physicians. That's why it can be valuable to hook up with other parents via forums and support groups. LDonline has forums, although I don't know how much they are used anymore.