Colleen in NS Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I'm starting to plan for next year for my almost 10 yo. People here have said that SWB no longer recommends using the Kingfisher history encyclopedia for practicing outlining skills in history, because of the difficulty in finding one main point per paragraph. I've also heard that she recommends using other books (biographies, information) with which to practice outlining in history. I also have read that many people use SOTW in the logic stage to practice outlining. So - I am thinking of NOT using KF for outlining, and thinking of re-using SOTW with which to practice outlining in history through the logic stage. I already plan to use SOTW for the reading aloud part, since I have a 7yo, too - and will give outlining work to the 10 yo. My questions: are there compelling reasons to use a variety of good writers on which to practice outlining skills, rather than just outlining for four years from SOTW which is by one author? Is there any detriment to just using one source for outlining? Or is it beneficial for some reason to stick with one source? Or does it not matter either way? :) If you have an opinion either way, can you tell me the "why" of your opinion (it helps me think it through)? For me, it would be *easier* to use just one source for outlining - SOTW - but I am completely open and willing to do the variety thing if there are good reasons to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 This is what I plan on having my newly Logic aged guys do. I think maybe the exposure to other authors style of writing might be beneficial. I plan on having them use their science books, as well. Keep it simple ,is my plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testimony Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It has outlining stuff in the AG. It is a little difficult for 4th grade. So, I thought that I would wait until logic stage which is right around the corner for us. I am going to start with history and then ease in science. Then finally, we will go to literature. I am going to use Venn diagrams too. Just a thought. Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Colleen, We do sporadic outlining from KF and SOTW. However, I would like to recommend the items listed in TWTM as an introduction to outlining: Beginning Outlining and Outlining by Remedia Publications. I use both resources at the end of 4th and beginning of 5th grade to gradually integrate outlining in our homeschool. R&S Grammar 4 & 5 talk about outlining too which is a good reinforcement. After we complete the Remedia resources, I assign the outlining exercises as described in TWTM with no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I second Remedia's books. I have my two going through them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhondabee Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I'm starting to plan for next year for my almost 10 yo. People here have said that SWB no longer recommends using the Kingfisher history encyclopedia for practicing outlining skills in history, because of the difficulty in finding one main point per paragraph. I've also heard that she recommends using other books (biographies, information) with which to practice outlining in history. I also have read that many people use SOTW in the logic stage to practice outlining. So - I am thinking of NOT using KF for outlining, and thinking of re-using SOTW with which to practice outlining in history through the logic stage. I already plan to use SOTW for the reading aloud part, since I have a 7yo, too - and will give outlining work to the 10 yo. My questions: are there compelling reasons to use a variety of good writers on which to practice outlining skills, rather than just outlining for four years from SOTW which is by one author? Is there any detriment to just using one source for outlining? Or is it beneficial for some reason to stick with one source? Or does it not matter either way? :) For me, it would be *easier* to use just one source for outlining - SOTW - but I am completely open and willing to do the variety thing if there are good reasons to do so. The reason I ask is this: it is hard to outline from SOTW at times because it is always a narrative, given in the order of time. Each story is also much longer than a 3 to 4 paragraph KF spread. So, if you are going to use it (sometimes we have), then just realize you have to tweak that with each story. Just do part of the story or sometimes, a narration just plain makes more sense than an outline. The advantage to outlining from KF (I would recommend the out-of-print version) or another essay-type source (could be any non-fiction book from the library or any encyclopedia article such as one from the World Book CD) is this: it will expose your student to expository writing rather than narrative (story writing). The purpose of outlining is for them to see that in expository writing, each paragraph has a topic sentence, and details are given to support that sentence - sometimes these will be in the order of time, but usually are in the order of importance or interest. They will also begin to see how some sentences are merely introductions, transitions, or conclusions to keep the info. interesting and smooth. And, they will start incorporating that into their own expository writing. It will also help teach them a more formal writing "voice" in a natural way. If you're going to use the new KHE rather than the KIHW, then I would recommend looking through the two-page spread and penciling out any sentences that are just listing dates. (They inserted the timeline of the OOP version into the middle of the spreads, and this really disrupts the flow of the essays.) For 5th grade, you might consider the Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia; have dc find the most important point of each "blurb". The hard part about using library books (altho' they are often more interesting) for me is that I never know for sure what's going to be available, and having to pre-read all the books just to find 3-4 paragraphs to outline. Much easier to have just one book to always fall back on. (And, Ria has a KIHW on the For Sale board.) Have to go now, but I'll check back later if you have any questions. Rhonda By the by, right now what I'm doing, and plan to do with my 5th grader next year is doing the KIHW outline, map, and timeline on Monday. Then, using SOTW as extra reading, and have 5th gr ds write a 1/2 page summary/narration on each story (8th gr ds will write a page or more). We do one SOTW "story" a day that way. Any extra days are spent either just reading library books, or re-writing the outline, adding details from SOTW when/if appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 We will also do outlining from our science spines as I think it is good to outline from a variety of authors. When they go on to high school or college, they'll have to outline from a variety of different professors, not just one - and their styles will all be different. Regena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 I forgot to factor in science spine books. I am planning to use those for outlining, too. And they are by various authors. Thanks for reminding me, those who mentioned science! I'm also using R&S for grammar, so I'll have a close look at the outlining lessons and see if we can go by that for now, before I think about buying another book to teach outlining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 The reason I ask is this: it is hard to outline from SOTW at times because it is always a narrative, given in the order of time. Each story is also much longer than a 3 to 4 paragraph KF spread. So, if you are going to use it (sometimes we have), then just realize you have to tweak that with each story. Just do part of the story or sometimes, a narration just plain makes more sense than an outline. The advantage to outlining from KF (I would recommend the out-of-print version) or another essay-type source (could be any non-fiction book from the library or any encyclopedia article such as one from the World Book CD) is this: it will expose your student to expository writing rather than narrative (story writing). If you're going to use the new KHE rather than the KIHW, then I would recommend looking through the two-page spread and penciling out any sentences that are just listing dates. (They inserted the timeline of the OOP version into the middle of the spreads, and this really disrupts the flow of the essays.) For 5th grade, you might consider the Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia; have dc find the most important point of each "blurb". Hi Rhonda, I do have the 2004 Kingfisher History Encyclopedia. And your explanation about the expository writing vs. narrative writing makes sense to me. Also your info. about the timeline being incorporated into the text makes sense, too. I had a quick look at that. I'll have to examine it more closely sometime - because maybe I can figure out how to teach my son to outline from it anyway. I HAVE seen other people here talk about still using KF with no problem (but I don't know which version of it). I just wondered if there might be advantages that I should consider as far as having ds outline from books by various authors, rather than just one book. But I would like one book (whether KF, Usborne - which I also have :), or SOTW) to be our anchor for history study. I guess I have four years, I could pick a spine, start outlining from it, and as I get more comfortable teaching it, I could have him do an outline here and there from different books from the library or whatever, if it seems appropriate. Maybe I'm just analyzing too much right now! LOL I will have science spines for ds to outline, too, so there will the variety I was wondering about. I just forgot about that part when I posted last night. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakmom Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 at the Well-Trained Mind site. Has amyone used this? It looks interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBP Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I'm wrestling with this same question right now as I'm doing some planning for fifth grade next year. I think I'm going to wind up taking it on a case-by-case basis and using whatever resource seems to work best for what we're studying and is least likely to overwhelm my kids, who will be new to outlining. Sometimes it will be SOTW, sometimes it will be KHE, and sometimes it will be VP cards. I probably won't use library books much for outlining just because I don't trust myself to do the advance preparation that would require. I'm going to try to stick with what's on my shelves :). SBP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhondabee Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Colleen, Whatever you use, just remember that for 5th grade all you are looking for on dc's outline is one sentence per paragraph. It will hopefully be the "topic sentence" - the main point. But, WTM even points out not to make a big deal out of it if you disagree w/dc over what the main point of the paragraph is. Using KF, you're only looking for 3 to 5 (usually 4) sentences per "outline"; so keep that amount in mind if you decide to use something else. Keep it easy-peasy - call it "taking notes" if that helps. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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