Can't fit it all in

[lewelma]

thanks for the advice!

[Kathy in Richmond]

Hi Ruth,

 

Just saw this & wanted to offer a few thoughts before I run out the door for the morning in water-soaked Richmond (more rain lately than I've seen in my 25 years here)! Hopefully this might make some sense..lots going on here & I'm coming at this with a muddled mind.

 

My first & foremost thought is that 6 hours per day devoted to IMO study seems too much to me. I know that everyone is different, but that sounds too stressful. That level of intensity would not have worked for my kids on a routine basis. Of course, there were days when math commitments did pile up & require hours, but they were the exception, not the rule.

 

IMO success comes somewhat sideways. It's not always the direct result of focused study, but rather the result of years of good math prep (which your ds definitely has!) & also from that elusive creative spark. And creativity is nurtured best from a state of rest when ideas can percolate. There seems to be a point of diminishing return where too much "study for the test" is counter-productive.

 

Your son is still 14 in your siggy - is that right? Still young enough to have a few shots at the IMO team.

 

Kids here who are competing at that level usually are taking a full slate of AP and honors classes across the board (at least in grades 10-12)  in addition to their extracurriculars...not an option. My son, for instance, was quite involved in Boy scouting, so many of his weekends were consumed with camping trips. THis did his academics a world of good! He usually came back more cheerful & focused, and I often noticed *better* math results after those weekends.

 

As for your son's current math schedule (I can't really comment on anything but math): Is there a way to cut back on the time he's putting into WOOT? WOOT is terrific IMO prep, by the way, but 3-6 hours daily seems high. I'm trying to recall what my kid put into it, but I think it was more like 1-2 hours per day.

 

Ds's schedule typically included something like: WOOT + Diff EQs or Lin Alg or Apostol (at home with me) + contest math (AMCs and USAMTS, which required writeups) + occasional MOP homework + Computing Olympiad. BUT...not everything each day!! Usually just one of them, or at most a couple, for a total of 2-3 hours max. He was a kid who NEEDED free evenings to maintain balance and keep from getting grouchy. Oh, there were days (I was just looking at one of his high school logs to get an idea) that were heavier. I found one where he had a USAMTS pset due AND a two-hour WOOT class on combinatorial geom AND he wrote the APMO that day, too....Eek! But not usually!

 

Another suggestion...when working on a hard WOOT or camp selection problem, what worked better here time-wise was to look at the problem for a bit in the morning & then put it aside unfinished. Often the subconscious would keep working in the background; later in the day I'd here "I think I figured it out!" ...usually during history or lit time (lol). 

 

Summer break is coming up soon for you, right? My kids made more math progress over the summer (thank you MathPath and Mathcamp and MOP!!) than during the school year when other commitments ran wild.

 

Don't stress too much over making the team. I know, I know...easier said than done! But it will either happen or not, and stressing won't help. It might have been different for us because my son didn't put over-much pressure on himself nor deal with perfectionism. And I'm probably on the laid-back "que sera, sera" side, too.

 

Sending good thoughts your way! Good luck to your son!

[lewelma]

Thanks Kathy, you have a lot of wisdom in that post. 

 

I agree that 6 hours WOOT is nuts. I think he would like to do 3-4 hours a day because he really really loves the thinking and feels it is NOT test prep but rather improving his math knowledge/problem solving.  He is 15 now but plans to graduate a year early, so two years left. He absolutely cannot work long hours and I certainly don't expect it.  He works 9-3 every day with a half day on Saturday for music. He loves his sports and his night time reading.  But what I am seeing is this feeling in him that he needs to take advantage of everything that the WOOT has to offer and that there is enough packed in there that he *could* spend all of his 6 'school' hours doing WOOT only.  He is not a perfectionist luckily, but I do think that he is not used to a class where he does not actually finish all the work that is available.  I think that is where I should start, helping him to choose from the WOOT smorgasbord what he plans to complete.

 

I also think that he is feeling some stress because we are heading into exam time for his classes (he is taking AP physics, calc, and ABRSM grade 8 music), but yet he is taking an American class that is just starting up because of the season shift.  My ds has never taken any exams before, so it is new and stressful.

 

I don't think he has an expectation of making the team this year, but I do think he wants to make sure that he gives it a good go so he does not think 'if only I had...'  But I will talk to him about that creative spark that is cultivated through a restful mind.  I think he senses this, which is why he is starting to talk about backing off of stuff.  But I think you are saying he should be backing off a bit from WOOT too, not just his classes.  And I will tell him so.  

 

Thanks for your kind and well considered advice!

 

Ruth in NZ

[Kathy in Richmond]

Ruth, I love your idea of looking at WOOT as a smorgasbord!  That's a great way to put into words what I was trying to say. And I think that the AoPS staff would go along with that analogy, too. Many kids take multiple of years of WOOT, and they still learn lots of new math with each go-round. No one can master it all in one year.

 

Did you guys ever get a copy of Steve Olson's Countdown? It was fun & illuminating for us to read the background stories of the members of the USA's 2001 IMO team. Lots of good math inside, too!

[lewelma]

I think I've seen it, but not sure ds has. Will go look it up.

 

I'm also wondering if ds is misinterpreting the time people are putting into WOOT because of the time zone difference.  He says there are people on the board All. day. long. working on problems.  Given that most kids will be in America, his daytime is your afternoon and night.  So these kids are probably hanging out after school, but to ds it seems like it is *during* school hours.  

 

The other problem is that ds wants to do problems that are challenging to *him* and his definition of challenging is a problem that takes at least 5 hours.  So ds is probably picking the problem set from too high a level, which makes the Problem-of-the-day take him *all* day, and leave little time for much else.   Do you think it would be better to do fewer tough questions, or more easier ones?  

 

In the end, he is doing all this because he *loves* it, not really for any exam prep.  So it makes it harder for me to tell him to stop.  He is just so passionate and works so hard.

[Kathy in Richmond]

I think I've seen it, but not sure ds has. Will go look it up.

 

I'm also wondering if ds is misinterpreting the time people are putting into WOOT because of the time zone difference.  He says there are people on the board All. day. long. working on problems.  Given that most kids will be in America, his daytime is your afternoon and night.  So these kids are probably hanging out after school, but to ds it seems like it is *during* school hours.  

 

The other problem is that ds wants to do problems that are challenging to *him* and his definition of challenging is a problem that takes at least 5 hours.  So ds is probably picking the problem set from too high a level, which makes the Problem-of-the-day take him *all* day, and leave little time for much else.   Do you think it would be better to do fewer tough questions, or more easier ones?  

 

In the end, he is doing all this because he *loves* it, not really for any exam prep.  So it makes it harder for me to tell him to stop.  He is just so passionate and works so hard.

 

You're probably correct about the time zone thing.

 

As for choosing WOOT problems, I'd probably mix it up with a tough problem followed by an easier problem or two. 

 

I'm so happy he's still loving it, Ruth! I do get that; he's a lot like me that way. I could work challenging contest math problems for hours still because they give me joy. (off to do some house cleaning now, but bribing myself with a math break after I finish...) :)

 

[Lori D.]

First, congratulations! :hurray: And how exciting having a DS with the skill and passion to be competing at international levels! :) Second, my preface: I have no experience or background with IMO or AoPS WOOT, and neither of my DSs are gifted or driven like your DS, so take my post FWIW and disregard if not helpful ;) ...

 

Since DS is loving the IMO and AoPS WOOT, and because that adds a lot of time to an already rigorous pace of academics, I would suggest letting go of the one goal that is really conflicting with his passion and the university prep -- graduating early. Like the rigorous level of academics and the prep for IMO, that goal of early graduation *also* requires extra time in the schedule -- to accomplish all the needed coursework in a shorter period of time.

 

My big concern comes from your statements:

- detecting a hint of failing stamina

- the heavy schedule is not a temporary push or a one-time special event, but is a cycle that starts again next Aug/Sept

 

You mentioned dropping some of the advanced work (AP Physics and Mandarin) in order to do the Math competition prep and university testing prep. That can be fine for a semester or a year in order to take advantage of a special opportunity or one-time event. But it sounds like this cycle starts all over again next year. Plus you mention already seeing early signs of failing stamina, and that would highly concern me, both for mental and physical health at keeping this up for not only this year but the next 2 years. High school students can push so hard that they are burned out on academics by the time they hit the university. :(

 

Giving DS that other year that he normally would have sounds like it would solve a lot of problems and provide a lot of benefits:

- take the pressure off of prepping for university exams (gives him another year to do so)

- give him the time to spread out doing the rigorous coursework of AP Physics, Mandarin, etc.

- give him the time to enjoy his music and sports activities

- give him another year of being able to do his passion (IMO and AoPS WOOT)

- give him more time to network with his advanced academic peers

- allow him to learn how to "pace" himself -- it's a marathon not a sprint, as high school is just the first stage, followed by the university stage, and then a long stretch of adult life and working career

 

In no way is that going to *reflect poorly* on DS to graduate at age 17-18 rather than age 16-17! Rather, that is going to give him the time and breathing room to more strongly allow him to shine with who he is and what his skills are -- high level of academics, variety of interests, and international-level competition. If graduating early causes DS to have to start paring back now on developing his skill set and pursuing his interests, then it is a conflicting goal with both his current and long-range plans.

 

 

BEST wishes in all the endeavors, and in finding a good balance! You are doing an awesome job of helping your gifted DS navigate these waters! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[lewelma]

Thanks so much Lori for taking the time to read my post carefully and write out such a thoughtful response!  [deleted for privacy]