LFC vs. SFC chant order--obscure Latin question

[Ali in OR]

I may just need to ask CAP this, but in case anyone here knows, here goes:

 

We are just starting LFC A and Spanish for Children, both by Classical Academic Press. They have us chant verb "forms" which I would call tenses. I took 4 years of high school Spanish and am comfortable with the order of the words in SFC which is the infinitive, present (1st person singular), preterit (1st person singular), future (1st person singular). Example: Hablar: hablo, hablé, hablaré.

 

The order in LFC is different, and I don't know enough about Latin to know if it's just a random difference (which I would find annoying) or if it makes more sense in Latin to use this order: present (1st person singular), infinitive, perfect (1st person singular--and since this is past tense I'm guessing it's the same as Spanish's preterit???), then passive participle or supine. Example: amo, amare, amavi, amatum. Why this order? In Spanish, you always start with the infinitive. In Latin, is the infinitive less important? Does everyone else always start with 1st person singular? And what is this passive participle--is that more important to impress on your mind than a future tense? Are other Latin courses constructed similarly? I guess I would just like a big picture as I start subjecting my children to this. And I would like to be able to explain how and why we are chanting slightly differently in the two languages.

 

If anyone can help, thanks!

[latinteach]

We are just starting LFC A and Spanish for Children, both by Classical Academic Press. They have us chant verb "forms" which I would call tenses.

 

What follows is a LOT of grammar explanation, possibly too much. The bottom line is that you need to know these 4 forms to fully express a verb in all possible ways.

 

Actually, what you are describing (for both Latin and Spanish) are not tenses, but principal parts. The principal parts are the forms necessary to build the tenses upon. You need to know all four Latin principal parts in order to produce all possible forms of a Latin verb in all tenses (time), moods (indicative, imperative or subjunctive) and voices (active or passive). It is not a random difference between Latin and Spanish. I would assume that the three principal parts you learn in Spanish are the necessary forms needed in order to build all the possible forms of a Spanish verb.

 

Why this order? In Spanish, you always start with the infinitive. In Latin, is the infinitive less important?

 

It is not less important. Each principal part gives you an essential piece of information. All four parts are equally important. I imagine they are given in the order they are given based upon the traditional sequence of learning Latin grammar -- in other words, you're learning them "in order of appearance."

 

The first principal part is the present indicative active. This is the dictionary form of the verb. The second principal part is the infinitive. Given these 2 principal parts, you can tell which conjugation family (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd-io, or 4th) a specific verb belongs to.

 

There are 2 verb systems in Latin: present and perfect. These 2 systems provide each provide a verb stem. You need to know the infinitive to get the present stem for present system verbs. Present system tenses are those verb tenses built from the present stem: the present, imperfect, and future.

 

The third principal part is the perfect indicative active, which gives you the perfect stem. You must know this principal part in order to get the perfect stem. Perfect system verbs are those built from the perfect stem: the perfect, the pluperfect and the future perfect.

 

The last principal part is the perfect passive participle. You need this one so that you can give the perfect passive forms of a verb.

 

All four are essential. All good Latin dictionaries will provide these four principal parts for every verb.

 

Does everyone else always start with 1st person singular?

 

Yes. Well, the VAST majority. Strictly speaking, the Cambridge Latin course starts out by giving you the 3rd person present and perfect in their dictionary in the back of the first unit. But the 2nd-4th books give you the traditional dictionary form. Why do they do this in the first book? Likely to cut down on the amount of material to be memorized in the beginning stages.

 

And what is this passive participle--is that more important to impress on your mind than a future tense?

 

Future tense is part of the present system, which is to say it is build on the present stem.

 

Are other Latin courses constructed similarly?

 

Yes. Most Latin courses will insist you learn these four principal parts.

[Ali in OR]

Thank you! I am printing this out now and will spend some time fully digesting it. It helps me a lot to have a bit more of the big picture. So it looks like Latin and Spanish are just structured differently, and though the chanting process is similar in these two courses, they really are accomplishing different things. I know where the Spanish is headed--this will help me a bit to understand what the Latin chant is accomplishing. Thanks again.

[Alessandra]

Well, to throw in another classical language (not that you asked), most Greek verbs SIX principal parts, and for many verbs, the parts are so dissimilar that they seem to have come from different planets!

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Does everyone else always start with 1st person singular?

 

The first part you need to learn, regardless of language AFAIK, is what is used to look up the verb in the dictionnary. Latin uses 1st person present to list verbs in dictionnaries. Weird, but that's the way it works! :tongue_smilie: