writing poetry (phrasing/rhyming/editing)

[LaughingCat]

DD^{the older} struggles with phrasing. rhyming and coming up with alternate wordings.  By phrasing I mean the rhythm of a sentence, the 'chunks' you would split it into (the kind of thing Killagon has you do).   She also does not hear the rhythm that comes from a certain number of syllables either.

 

I knew this already but it has really come home to me with a recent poetry writing session.    So I wondered if any of you all had found something that helps with this.   A typical  example would be something like:

 

Like a cheetah, she races around the   (<-- note: this ending the 'phrase' after the or a seems very typical for her)

house, jumping from couch to chair.

 

DD cannot not see the 'natural' phrasing would be:

Like a cheetah,

she races around the house

jumping from couch to chair

 

Additionally, once she has written something she finds it very hard to reword it, even a simple order change or changing one word like:  

 

She races around the house,

like a cheetah,

pouncing from chair to couch

 

The idea that you have to find a way to word it so it might need the same number of syllables and a certain rhyming scheme is so far out of her reach I dropped it completely (and focused on trying to get her to see that poetry usually has some kind of 'pattern' to it)

 

Is there a program that addresses something like this?  With practice rewording sentences and chunking simple sentences (I have Killagon Sentence Composing for Elementary and it does chunking - but far beyond her ability).  So far what I have seen/used seems much more about taking two (or more) ideas and combining them - DD can do that with no problem.  She just can't take a complex sentence and reword it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Well fwiw...  I would have trouble at those things.  I never could hear all the foot/feet junk they try to get you to do with poetry.  Have you tried with music?  Gives you the pattern but is different.  I turned out to be shockingly good at writing new words for songs.  I've also explored free verse (poetry) in the past, thinking I ought to get over my nasty experience from high school.  It's not like metered poetry is the ONLY poetry on the planet.  Since you aren't likely to fix her problem (whatever it is) during this session, personally I'd bend on the form, VALIDATE HER CREATIVITY, and move on.  Or go beyond validating her creativity and do whatever genre it is she *can* do well even more!  

 

Do you have processing speed and word retrieval scores on her?  The people in my house couldn't do those exercises either.  I think it's a word retrieval issue.  It has gotten easier for them as they've tried to keep up with me.  I can take pretty much any tune and write words.  Or I can do the reverse, calling a tune up out of my head to match something they say.  They find it very annoying.   :lol: 

 

So anyways, free verse, shape poetry, *maybe* haiku but even still flex that.  If her haiku isn't "proper", screw proper and call it Klingon poetry or whatever title you make up.  Do it your own way.  It's her expression and that's all that matters.

 

And no, most people don't appreciate having their baby (the expression) screwed up, murdered, hacked, or rearranged.  If you want to rearrange writing, write somebody else's sentences on strips, chop them with scissors, and do it together.  Then snap each iteration with your iPhone and make some kind of hashtag or flickr or whatever and upload them somewhere.  Put black construction paper behind them as you do it and do it near a window so the light is good.  Graphic, fun, not murdering her words.

 

As far as the word retrieval, give her a word bank and be done with it.

[LaughingCat]

The problem is, I wasn't trying for any particular form - just "poetry like" instead of "paragraph like".   The whole 1st draft was written kinda like my example, with seemingly numerous lines cut right after the "the"  (or just a long paragraph type sentence on a line by itself).  And I tried saying the poem back to her with an extra long pause at the end of the lines (or cutting long sentences into multiple).... and she said she couldn't hear any difference  (although I can see maybe singing it to her might have done it.... I will try that next time).   After a lot of pushing/questioning from me (and hours of work) she got a nice creative poem with no metering/rhyming but utilizing 2 different 'patterns' - 1 repetitive and 1 visual that even included some humorous snarky lines directed at my pushing lol.

 

The questions I have come up with ("which of these sounds better?  what kind of pattern are you trying to use?")  don't seem to help either.  I have to point out different options and then she picks the one she wants, and even then she often misses where she didn't follow the 'pattern'  (and we're talking very basic patterns here - like each stanza starts like "this" or "long short short long" lines).   And the pattern part appears to be related to words only - I haven't seen pattern following problems elsewhere (rhythm problems YES! pattern problems, no)

 

It just made me think this is something she needs to work on.   If she was going to pick it up naturally I think it would have already happened (we've been reading plenty of poetry to work on reading skills).  And it seems like it would help her reading too.

 

Plus, the editing thing is an ongoing problem - once the words come out she will not change them (other than punctuation - even tense changes can be hard to get).  For example, she did use the thesaurus to find some new words - but she won't change any already written down words  (even if she's rewriting the whole thing anyway - it's not a physical writing problem).

 

If I push her ("I'm not understanding this - what are you trying to say here?  what are you visualizing?  and then what happens?") then she will often come up with a whole new far better line (or sentence for regular work) and switch to that.  She doesn't so much 'edit' as she 'replaces'-  but I guess it would be a big step forward if she were just doing that part on her own (even a  tiny little bit!) and not only when I grill her.    

 

I need something to make her practice these skills -- instead of me talking at her.  And at a more broken down level than anything I've seen so far.  If I have to hack together my own thing I will do it - but would really prefer to find something that did that part for me. 

 

 

 

 

[LaughingCat]

Just wanted to add that on a completely different writing exercise today - I had DD say what she wanted to say into a recording app and then copy it down while listening to herself speak, repeating a section as much as necessary (normally I scribe for her - but I've been trying to find ways to allow DD to control the process more) -and I saw more editing happen during that exercise than I've ever seen before.  So it appears at least that part is working memory - when she only had to manipulate a sentence and didn't have to hold in her head the plan for what she wanted to say and the current sentence and manipulate it, she was able to edit.  Not edit the whole, but at least edit sentences - which is far more than I've gotten before.

 

I think I will give her exercises where instead of her having to discern the phrases, they are already there and she just has to order (and re-order) them. I'm sure I've seen some exercises like that recently somewhere but can't recall where (plus I need to look  back through the Kilgallon book - got stopped by the very first sections where she was supposed to break sentences into 'phrases' and didn't go past that - probably I can use their sentences even if they don't have exercises like that).

 

[cherylswope]

My daughter struggles with all of these same issues (i.e., resistance to editing, odd formation, difficulties appreciating the beauty and order of poetic form). I had hoped to write sooner, and it seems you may have already found your solution!

 

 

If not, you might consider this book, if only for the early exercises:  Harp & Laurel Wreath: Poetry and Dictation for the Classical Curriculum. I shared the link, because Amazon offers the "Look Inside" option. You can see what you think. Laura Berquist's selections are "graded" from easiest to more difficult. Her questions guide a student to study and explore simple poetry, words, themes, and forms.

 

Poetry seems to help my daughter see the structure of language in ways prose may not always accomplish, even though we have supplemented with many other prose writing programs.

 

Given my own daughter's language disorder and complex learning disabilities, I intended only to work with the first section of Harp & Laurel Wreath. However, she responded so well, she continued reading on her own through the entire book over several years of modified poetry study. I saw a marked difference in her writing over time, especially in her poetry.

 

 

Like you, I also found a better response when editing aurally. If I wanted to suggest a substitute word, I would remove the visual and ask as objectively as I could to conclude a stanza, "Which do you like better? 'She walked along the ocean's coast,' or 'She walked along the ocean's shore?'" For such exercises, I allowed her to choose, and often she selected the word that better fit the pattern or rhyme. Sometimes she even exclaimed, "Oh, yes. I like that much better!" She judged the "sound" of the words this way. [i rarely received such enthusiasm when I marked her paper myself! :)]

 

Even today, her OCD tendencies make written editing much more challenging than oral, so we sometimes overcome this with coaching ahead of time. "Remember, this will not be the final copy. This is our first draft. Now that you are older, your writing has two stages. After all, even published writers need editors. You will write the draft. Then you will write the final copy, but only after we finish editing."

 

Another strategy that has helped here: placing our edits in typed form. After we edit, she can see how the more proper form would look. My daughter seems much more accepting of (and pleased with) her new "finished product" this way, sometimes even clapping her hands at the sound and look of it all.

 

Breaking down the steps seems to help. Perhaps, as you suggest, some of the challenges are due to working memory difficulties.

 

Still another strategy can occur apart from actual writing. You might find it helpful to brainstorm synonyms or rhyming words just "for fun." I tell my daughter, "Flexible thinking is a good skill for writers. It teaches us to look for the best word, rather than simply settling for the word we wrote first." You can do this anywhere. Just speak or write a single word from one part of speech. For example, choose a verb. "Walk." Then try to list as many synonyms as possible. Let her choose the next word. Adjectives might be easiest, such as "pretty."

 

Another tip that helped here: a child's thesaurus. One of our early writing programs encouraged its use long before I would have thought to give her such a tool. She seemed to enjoy this. Rather than leaning on my suggestions, she has control of those verbal options right at her fingertips!

 

Finally - an exercise adaptable from many classical writing programs: have your daughter write the same sentence three times with different synonyms. You might need to write an original sentence yourself or select one from a read-aloud, so you minimize any territorial feelings (i.e., rather than choosing one of her own sentences). Choose a substitute synonym for an adjective or adverb first, then a noun, then a verb. Read the final sentences out loud, and allow her to vote on the one she likes the most, based on the sound of the words.

 

 

Perhaps you found the overarching answer for our children: encourage them to look at the form, even as they "listen" to the language they write.

 

Thanks for this topic -

 

Cheryl

 

Simply Classical: A Beautiful Education for Any Child