Resources to improve working memory and verbal expression

[MyLittleBears]

Just wondering what is out there. My highly intelligent 13yr old has a lot of trouble verbalizing what he sees in his mind, which is basically moving pictures. He speech is slower than other people's, but not really noticeably. It is just obvious (to me) that he is thinking through what to say based on what he is seeing in his mind. There is a lot of umm, umm, that thing, I'm not sure how to say it, type of stuff in his everyday language. I don't think he is autistic (on the spectrum maybe) and has a great sense of humor but he is still socially awkward. He was this way as little guy but it was not as obvious then. He also seems to process information a bit slower than normal, especially when he finds something difficult. It is not that he can't do difficult work, it just take him a very long time. I plan on having him tested in the Spring (probably should have done this a long time ago) when our insurance changes, but I would like to do something in the mean time.

[geodob]

You wrote that he: 'has a lot of trouble verbalizing what he sees in his mind, which is basically moving pictures.'

Also: ' that he is thinking through what to say based on what he is seeing in his mind.'

 

Where this describes the thinking process of  someone who hasn't developed the ability to use what is termed as 'sub-vocalizing'.

Which can also be termed as 'self-talk', and the ability to imagine the sound of words in our mind, without saying them out loud.

Which you are probably using as you read this, and hearing the words.

Then if you write a reply?  Then you will also probably use it to form and rehearse each sentence in your mind.  As you go to write it.

Where it is also fundamental to thinking, as we talk through something in our mind.

 

But the ability to use 'self-talk', is actually an acquired skill, that we learn how to use.

Though their can be a delay in its development,  so that people develop a method of thinking in a rapid series of pictures.

But as a result of this, they are unable to verbally think through something in their mind, and then form a reply or statement.

For verbal expression, they use mental pictures to retrieve 'verbal scripts' from memory.  As they are unable to form a sentence.

 

Though an indication of this, is the lack of use of words like: might, could, should, maybe, if, such, and a set of words that can't be pictured,  other than as a printed word.

So that they have a difficulty with using these words in verbal expression.

 

So from what you wrote, I wonder if he hasn't developed his ability to use self-talk?

Where as he is 13, you could talk with him about it, to get an idea of what he can or can't do with it?

[Indian summer]

Is it possible he has an auditory processing disorder? Being socially awkward and having trouble communicating go along with that. You might consider using Dianne Craft's materials, if you think it might be a good fit. Her website is diannecraft.org

[PeterPan]

Just wondering what is out there. My highly intelligent 13yr old has a lot of trouble verbalizing what he sees in his mind, which is basically moving pictures. He speech is slower than other people's, but not really noticeably. It is just obvious (to me) that he is thinking through what to say based on what he is seeing in his mind. There is a lot of umm, umm, that thing, I'm not sure how to say it, type of stuff in his everyday language. I don't think he is autistic (on the spectrum maybe) and has a great sense of humor but he is still socially awkward. He was this way as little guy but it was not as obvious then. He also seems to process information a bit slower than normal, especially when he finds something difficult. It is not that he can't do difficult work, it just take him a very long time. I plan on having him tested in the Spring (probably should have done this a long time ago) when our insurance changes, but I would like to do something in the mean time.

Well you're onto the need for evals, so that's awesome.  Have you found what psych you want to use for the evals?  That might be a really good way to spend your time right now, figuring out who the popular psych is.  If they would let you get on the waiting list for the psych (sometimes 1-3 or more months!), that would be good.  That way when your insurance kicks in, you can get the referral through the ped and get that going sooner.  

 

Ok, as far as what you're seeing, I'll just tell you what happened with dd.  Yes, her processing speed is low.  Your ds' sounds even lower.  The psych did tests on word retrieval, and hers was definitely low, but there was a difference between what she retrieved where she could visualize vs. what she retrieved to alphabetic (language) cues.  Because she's so visual, she retrieved much better to anything she could visualize than she could to the alphabetic cues.  I don't know what you're seeing with your ds and I'm not a psych.  I'm just thinking it's good you're getting evals to tease that apart.  Depending on what you're seeing, they could refer you for a speech eval to see if there's anything they can do there to help.  Our SLP has ds working through things for word retrieval, etc., so there are definitely interventions for that.  So that would be a possible SLP eval on top of the psych eval.  Don't be afraid of that.  It would even be something to get the ball rolling on now, finding what SLP the psychs recommend, who is known for being good with spectrum.  Their waiting list is probably shorter to get in, but if your insurance will cover it you would be ready to make a move as soon as you're onto the new policy.

 

As far as what we're using, well she's got us doing Jean DeGaetano books from Great Ideas for Teaching.  Thing is, if you start intervening like that you're making it harder to diagnose.  You've waited this long, so might as well wait another two months, get the evals with the clearest picture, THEN start interventions.  That will also help you know what to target.  

[PeterPan]

Guess I didn't address your actual question, sorry.  The theory is that working memory will hold back their ability to retrieve, organize their thoughts, and motor plan, so yes any time you're improving working memory you're possibly improving speech.  I've got my ds working through some worksheets (DeGaetano) that someone gave me where they combine working memory, processing speed, etc.  It's not so much what the sheets are as how they use them.  They also throw in digit spans.  You're not crazy, but this is stuff an SLP does.  Language is complex, with all kinds of aspects I never anticipated.  It would be nice to have those numbers and know what's affected and then get some guidance on how to approach it.  I know that's what you're trying to do, sorry.  

 

Interactive Metronome can bump processing speed in some kids.  You can do a hack version at home for free using a metronome app and Heathermomster's instructions here on the boards.  Once the basic motions get easier, throw in working memory with digit spans.  Talk to him while he's doing the metronome work, and you've got expressive language plus motor control.  None of that will hurt him.  It's more like shots in the dark, kwim?  

 

The worksheets I have want him to do rapid naming, but you don't have to have fancy worksheets to do that.  You can do that with a page of items that go together (I Spy page with a scene, a picture dictionary organized by category, a cabela's catalog, objects in a room, etc.), and then you're working on processing speed, retrieval, and lexicon (how the words organize in the brain).  With lexicon, we're saying we want all the words for something to file together and not get into different parts of the brain.  So we want all the words for food to be together in the brain, faster to retrieve. I have ds doing rapid naming with the game Spot It.  We flip the cards and he has to NAME the matches.   This is very hard for him.  Memory/Concentration would do the same thing.  Obviously for that use cards with images that are easy to name.  For visual memory purposes, you chose images that they have to use visual memory for.  For speech purposes, choose ones they can name.  Yes, I have a bunch of different sets for different purposes, lol.  Again, a shot in the dark, may or may not be helpful to him.  

 

It might be that just getting the processing speed up will help some of what's frustrating you most.  IM has done that with some kids here on the boards, where they've gone from say 8th percentile to 30th, which in their world was this HUGE leap of functionality.  You can also play video games.  Does he like them or shy away from them?  If he shies away from them, REQUIRE them.  Video games are a very straightforward, known way to work on processing speed, and some kids will shy away precisely because they are hard.  SandyKC here on the boards has a link to her blog with all sorts of computer things to do for processing speed and cognitive stuff.  It can definitely help some kids.  There are all kinds of price points.  

 

Keep us posted when you're able to do your evals!  Sounds like they're going to be very helpful to you, and we'll be glad to hear your progress.  :)

[MyLittleBears]

You wrote that he: 'has a lot of trouble verbalizing what he sees in his mind, which is basically moving pictures.'

Also: ' that he is thinking through what to say based on what he is seeing in his mind.'

 

Where this describes the thinking process of  someone who hasn't developed the ability to use what is termed as 'sub-vocalizing'.

Which can also be termed as 'self-talk', and the ability to imagine the sound of words in our mind, without saying them out loud.

Which you are probably using as you read this, and hearing the words.

Then if you write a reply?  Then you will also probably use it to form and rehearse each sentence in your mind.  As you go to write it.

Where it is also fundamental to thinking, as we talk through something in our mind.

 

But the ability to use 'self-talk', is actually an acquired skill, that we learn how to use.

Though their can be a delay in its development,  so that people develop a method of thinking in a rapid series of pictures.

But as a result of this, they are unable to verbally think through something in their mind, and then form a reply or statement.

For verbal expression, they use mental pictures to retrieve 'verbal scripts' from memory.  As they are unable to form a sentence.

 

Though an indication of this, is the lack of use of words like: might, could, should, maybe, if, such, and a set of words that can't be pictured,  other than as a printed word.

So that they have a difficulty with using these words in verbal expression.

 

So from what you wrote, I wonder if he hasn't developed his ability to use self-talk?

Where as he is 13, you could talk with him about it, to get an idea of what he can or can't do with it?

This helps me understand some of what I'm seeing. How silly that I never thought to ask him. He has verbalized, though, that he feels as if his brain works slowly. He realizes he is not slow as in MR, but just not "quick on his feet".

 

[MyLittleBears]

Is it possible he has an auditory processing disorder? Being socially awkward and having trouble communicating go along with that. You might consider using Dianne Craft's materials, if you think it might be a good fit. Her website is diannecraft.org

 

 

We worked through the Dianne Craft materials about a year and a half ago and got mixed results. We did the stuff for auditory processing and dysgraphia. His writing improved immensely and he was finally able to get his "stories" down on paper. He did this on his own and I was astonished at how good they are, however the auditory therapy seemingly did nothing. We also did her nutrition program and it did wonders for our family.

[MyLittleBears]

Well you're onto the need for evals, so that's awesome.  Have you found what psych you want to use for the evals?  That might be a really good way to spend your time right now, figuring out who the popular psych is.  If they would let you get on the waiting list for the psych (sometimes 1-3 or more months!), that would be good.  That way when your insurance kicks in, you can get the referral through the ped and get that going sooner.  

 

Ok, as far as what you're seeing, I'll just tell you what happened with dd.  Yes, her processing speed is low.  Your ds' sounds even lower.  The psych did tests on word retrieval, and hers was definitely low, but there was a difference between what she retrieved where she could visualize vs. what she retrieved to alphabetic (language) cues.  Because she's so visual, she retrieved much better to anything she could visualize than she could to the alphabetic cues.  I don't know what you're seeing with your ds and I'm not a psych.  I'm just thinking it's good you're getting evals to tease that apart.  Depending on what you're seeing, they could refer you for a speech eval to see if there's anything they can do there to help.  Our SLP has ds working through things for word retrieval, etc., so there are definitely interventions for that.  So that would be a possible SLP eval on top of the psych eval.  Don't be afraid of that.  It would even be something to get the ball rolling on now, finding what SLP the psychs recommend, who is known for being good with spectrum.  Their waiting list is probably shorter to get in, but if your insurance will cover it you would be ready to make a move as soon as you're onto the new policy.

 

As far as what we're using, well she's got us doing Jean DeGaetano books from Great Ideas for Teaching.  Thing is, if you start intervening like that you're making it harder to diagnose.  You've waited this long, so might as well wait another two months, get the evals with the clearest picture, THEN start interventions.  That will also help you know what to target.  

 Yes, I guess it does make sense not to remedy so that the doctor sees all the symptoms. As of now we have not found a pediatrician in our immediate area. We have a local general practitioner. I suppose I should work with them, otherwise it is a 50 min haul. Is an SLP is a speech and language therapist?

[MyLittleBears]

Guess I didn't address your actual question, sorry.  The theory is that working memory will hold back their ability to retrieve, organize their thoughts, and motor plan, so yes any time you're improving working memory you're possibly improving speech.  I've got my ds working through some worksheets (DeGaetano) that someone gave me where they combine working memory, processing speed, etc.  It's not so much what the sheets are as how they use them.  They also throw in digit spans.  You're not crazy, but this is stuff an SLP does.  Language is complex, with all kinds of aspects I never anticipated.  It would be nice to have those numbers and know what's affected and then get some guidance on how to approach it.  I know that's what you're trying to do, sorry.  

 

Interactive Metronome can bump processing speed in some kids.  You can do a hack version at home for free using a metronome app and Heathermomster's instructions here on the boards.  Once the basic motions get easier, throw in working memory with digit spans.  Talk to him while he's doing the metronome work, and you've got expressive language plus motor control.  None of that will hurt him.  It's more like shots in the dark, kwim?  

 

The worksheets I have want him to do rapid naming, but you don't have to have fancy worksheets to do that.  You can do that with a page of items that go together (I Spy page with a scene, a picture dictionary organized by category, a cabela's catalog, objects in a room, etc.), and then you're working on processing speed, retrieval, and lexicon (how the words organize in the brain).  With lexicon, we're saying we want all the words for something to file together and not get into different parts of the brain.  So we want all the words for food to be together in the brain, faster to retrieve. I have ds doing rapid naming with the game Spot It.  We flip the cards and he has to NAME the matches.   This is very hard for him.  Memory/Concentration would do the same thing.  Obviously for that use cards with images that are easy to name.  For visual memory purposes, you chose images that they have to use visual memory for.  For speech purposes, choose ones they can name.  Yes, I have a bunch of different sets for different purposes, lol.  Again, a shot in the dark, may or may not be helpful to him.  

 

It might be that just getting the processing speed up will help some of what's frustrating you most.  IM has done that with some kids here on the boards, where they've gone from say 8th percentile to 30th, which in their world was this HUGE leap of functionality.  You can also play video games.  Does he like them or shy away from them?  If he shies away from them, REQUIRE them.  Video games are a very straightforward, known way to work on processing speed, and some kids will shy away precisely because they are hard.  SandyKC here on the boards has a link to her blog with all sorts of computer things to do for processing speed and cognitive stuff.  It can definitely help some kids.  There are all kinds of price points.  

 

Keep us posted when you're able to do your evals!  Sounds like they're going to be very helpful to you, and we'll be glad to hear your progress.   :)

 Thanks Elizabeth this is all very helpful.  No, we have no problems with shying away from video games here.lol  The problem pops up with his speed in terms of school work, or anything requiring a lot of thought or a series of steps. He can't do oral narrations very well unless it is from a key word outline. If he has to come up with it on his own, he kind of freezes or it takes him forever, so I don't require them. 

[PeterPan]

This helps me understand some of what I'm seeing. How silly that I never thought to ask him. He has verbalized, though, that he feels as if his brain works slowly. He realizes he is not slow as in MR, but just not "quick on his feet".

You are correct that processing speed and intelligence are NOT one in the same.  If someone has a disability with processing speed, they will remove that part and give an *adjusted* IQ score.

 

You mentioned ped and general practitioner.  I don't know if you've made this leap yet, but what you actually need is a full psychological eval.  A neuropsych or other psych would be what you're looking for.  They're the practitioner that can test all this stuff.  (IQ, processing speed, etc. etc.)  For some things a language eval by an SLP (speech language pathologist) is warranted.  So just start somewhere.  If he has these issues, he may warrant accommodations on testing, and those accommodations can make a serious difference in his scores, letting what he knows inside come out.  If you can't afford the testing, you can also look to the ps.  It varies with what they'll do for you, but they're usually going to do something.  There's a process (write a letter, blah blah) and I haven't done it to be much help.  Sometimes if you ask around locally, you'll find someone who has.  Sometimes the local ps system will be very helpful and bend over backward, and sometimes they're so overloaded they have a hard time getting anything done.  You just never know.  That would be one way to get some answers.

[geodob]

I would be interested to know what he says when you ask him about whether he can use his self-talk?

Whether he can talk through something in his mind?

Though for 13 year olds who haven't developed their self-talk?

The typical response is: 'Do you think I'm crazy, of course I don't hear voices in my head !'

Where they know about self-talk, from movies about schizophrenia and auditory hallucinations.

 

[MyLittleBears]

You are correct that processing speed and intelligence are NOT one in the same.  If someone has a disability with processing speed, they will remove that part and give an *adjusted* IQ score.

 

You mentioned ped and general practitioner.  I don't know if you've made this leap yet, but what you actually need is a full psychological eval.  A neuropsych or other psych would be what you're looking for.  They're the practitioner that can test all this stuff.  (IQ, processing speed, etc. etc.)  For some things a language eval by an SLP (speech language pathologist) is warranted.  So just start somewhere.  If he has these issues, he may warrant accommodations on testing, and those accommodations can make a serious difference in his scores, letting what he knows inside come out.  If you can't afford the testing, you can also look to the ps.  It varies with what they'll do for you, but they're usually going to do something.  There's a process (write a letter, blah blah) and I haven't done it to be much help.  Sometimes if you ask around locally, you'll find someone who has.  Sometimes the local ps system will be very helpful and bend over backward, and sometimes they're so overloaded they have a hard time getting anything done.  You just never know.  That would be one way to get some answers.

 

 

I did find a neuropysch in our area, thankfully. I thought you meant we should start with the ped. A couple of years ago I did try through the ps in our on neighborhood. It was the spring before we decided to homeschool, and as soon as they found out about that, I got the old runaround. Very frustrating. Perhaps our new school district would be different.

[MyLittleBears]

I would be interested to know what he says when you ask him about whether he can use his self-talk?

Whether he can talk through something in his mind?

Though for 13 year olds who haven't developed their self-talk?

The typical response is: 'Do you think I'm crazy, of course I don't hear voices in my head !'

Where they know about self-talk, from movies about schizophrenia and auditory hallucinations.

 

 

Funny!  I have not asked him yet but I intend to, so I will have to keep this in mind and explain what sub-vocalizing is.

[PeterPan]

I did find a neuropysch in our area, thankfully. I thought you meant we should start with the ped. A couple of years ago I did try through the ps in our on neighborhood. It was the spring before we decided to homeschool, and as soon as they found out about that, I got the old runaround. Very frustrating. Perhaps our new school district would be different.

Yes, the ped if good if you need a referral for insurance or want an overall check.  Once you get into diagnosis, it's much more helpful to have the full eval.  :)