Math Mammoth - going into 5th; stay with 'old' or move to 'new'

[abrightmom]

DS10 is a rising 5th grader and will be using MM5. He's been using the "old" MM up through 4th grade though we now have the updated versions as well. He's doing fine with math although I think he needs a thorough review and a grounding in multiplication facts (his recall is sluggish and inaccurate much of the time so he's clearly not at mastery here) before launching 5th grade.

 

I went over to the Math Mammoth site and reviewed the FAQ page on the differences between the old and new versions. Topics have been moved around in all grades and according to Maria the old 5th and 6th grade versions are more advanced than the new ones. She is writing MM7 and taking topics from the old 6th grade and transferring them there.

 

I am preparing our math today and wonder if I should:

 

1. Keep DS in the 'old' Math Math but complete the comprehensive 4th grade review (this is a new MM product) and drill multiplication intensely this summer before starting 5th. Would I then skip pre-Algebra or pick/choose when we get to MM7 as we would have had some of it in MM6?

 

2. Do the comprehensive review and drill. Cover the topics that were added to 4th grade (that we missed in using the old version) and start the new 5th grade this fall. This slows the intensity a little and sets him up to use MM7 as Pre-Algebra in 7th grade without the picking/choosing.

 

** I am hesitant to ask my son to complete the entire comprehensive review as I'd like to start 5th grade math by August if possible. I may opt for using chapter reviews and see if there are any 'holes' and assign more review accordingly. We will nail multiplication tables though.**

 

In conclusion, I think I could opt for 1 or 2. Choosing 1 simplifies my life now in that I don't have to go back and cherry pick "missed topics". It is my preference. Please let me know if there are any red flags with this plan.

[Chrysalis Academy]

So you are saying that there are things in the new MM4 that weren't in the old one? I haven't compared that level, since we finished it. I know with MM5 & 6, it's the opposite, the new contains less material than the old.

 

I think either plan - switching to the new and planning on MM7 for PreA, or sticking with the old and then deciding about PreA when the time comes, can work. You probably don't want to entirely skip PreA if you do the old MM6, it's a partial PreA, but would need supplementation to be a stand-alone preA for most students. By the time you get to PreA age, MM7 will be out, so you have that as an option either way.

 

Whichever route you take - choose the one that seems simplest to you - I would definitely make sure that your ds is really solid with mutliplication and division, using either the cumulative reviews, chapter reviews, or this new review product. Don't make him repeat stuff he has down, but search and destroy all holes before moving on! MM5 is really focused on learning decimals & fractions, so you want your multiplication and division to be really solid before you start it. It's worth spending time on that this summer, it will make your 5th grade year go much more smoothly, whichever version of MM5 you end up using.

 

FWIW, I'm using the old MM with dd10, because we're just ahead of the revision schedule, and I'll supplement MM6 to turn it into a fuller PreA. With dd7, I'm starting her in the "new" MM2, and will stick with the new MM series unless we end up switching to BA in 3rd grade.

[Forgiven]

My DD(10) is moving to MM5A/B next year and we've chosen to stay with the older version. For some reason, I have the newer versions of MM1 and MM2, but the old versions of MM3, 4, 5, and 6. My DS(8) will switch from new (MM2) to old (MM3) this year, and my youngest will do the same when he gets there.

 

I agree with the post above me. Decide which route you want to take and go from there.

[abrightmom]

Thank-you Rose, especially for the counsel on what to "camp on" in our reviews.

 

What am I looking for in terms of his understanding in division and multiplication? Should I simply make sure he can easily complete reviews or tests for those chapters in MM4 without any major mistakes or lapses? He had NO trouble with division and flew right through it. He does make mistakes because of his shoddy recall in multiplication which is why we're going to achieve mastery with those this summer. I feared long division and it was nothing. Shrug. I guess I had better make sure it wasn't a fluke by reviewing it with him though. :D

 

In the division chapter I COULD NOT understand the section titled "Division as Repeated Subtraction". I really tried to get through that. :o I understand that division can be solved by repeated subtraction but the lesson itself was beyond me. Very embarrassing. We moved on and had no more trouble.

 

I intend to stay the course with the old version with my oldest and put my youngers in the new version.

[Chrysalis Academy]

If he gets long division, you're cool. I think your plan to practice the multiplication tables is a good one.

 

As far as the repeated subtraction explanation . . . I will freely admit that if dd is getting a concept easily, I do not necessarily drag her through each step in the incremental explanation of how and why it works. I'm glad that stuff is there, but when she clicks with a concept, she finds it beyond tedious (and sometimes confusing) to have to step through all the increments. I don't think this is unusual. So I wouldn't feel guilty about skipping that!

 

I don't mean that I don't require her to have a conceptual understanding of why algorithms work - but if you have used MM you will know what I mean. Sometimes she explains an algorithm 4 or 5 different ways, and if the kid already gets how it works and why, they do not need to be beat over the head with it!!

[abrightmom]

Rose,

 

Thanks for your help with MM. :coolgleamA: I really appreciate you and I am feeling confident about my plan for this boy ....

 

ETA: Rose, as I'm sitting here going over the 4th grade materials he's completed a question came to mind. How important is it to KNOW all of the terminology related to concepts, both the names and the meanings? As I am looking through the division chapter I see terms and concepts such as quotient, divisor, dividend, division with zero, order of operations, remainder, average, divisibility and divisibility rules, the long division process (she has this spelled out by steps), etc.

 

Honestly, I struggle with knowing how much to expect in terms of retention. I want mastery but what is that precisely? I suppose I could walk through each chapter and discuss each term or concept with him and see what he can explain back to me. Do you require your students to memorize and recall terms, concept explanations, etc or do you just gauge their mastery based on the successful completion of the written work?

 

I do have an uneasiness about math and need to learn more about how to set my expectations at the right place. I believe I have tended to under-expect and that has not built the foundation as firmly as I could have ....

[nansk]

A little OT - I am curious why you (and Rose) have chosen to start your younger dc in the new (CC-aligned?) MM. Apart from the sequence of topics, is there anything different about the layout of the new MM which makes it a better choice?

[TracyP]

After spending time with both old and new, I prefer the new format. There are some areas that are visually laid out better. It walks through some of the more difficult concepts with a bit more teaching. (that will drive some crazy, lol) It has more built in review. Each chapter now has a mixed review at the end of it. Not to mention that she is now offering review books and these will be aligned to the new version.

 

Abrightmom, I would not worry about terminology. This is a great place to have your ds make a notebook page with the terminology on it. Making it will give him extra practice, and he can use it for reference.

 

How to know they mastered it? I'm not an expert but I look for two things: 1) can they teach me? I don't always expect the right words - but I will do things like work through a problem and get stuck. I will have them explain what to do next. 2) do they transfer what they've learned to word problems? The MM word problems are hard and I don't expect perfection. I do expect enough understanding to get most of them, mostly right. We always talk through any word problem that has mistakes. If it is a simple calculation mistake this is a good time to discuss the importance of taking your time. If it is a deeper mistake in understanding, this usually becomes obvious during the word problems.

 

I like the new format so my vote is for #2. I think it would be easier to switch now then at the end of 5 or 6. It seems the differences between old and new get larger as you go. Scanning the topics in the FAQ, I don't think you would HAVE TO cover any of those. I'd hate to be wrong so I highly recommend emailing Maria and asking. I know that prime numbers, factoring, and multiplying a fraction by a whole number are covered in depth in 5.

[abrightmom]

Tracy,

 

Thanks for your advice. Of course! Teaching the concept to another person and success in word problems! Thank-you for pointing this stuff out to me. I am such a blockhead!

 

I liked the geometry journal in the 4th grade geometry chapter and I am going to try that idea with new concepts or terms in 5th. He often needs a ready reference and we flip back through papers trying to find some term or list. We also use the math terminology as we work and I am sure that will build fluency over time.

 

I am intrigued by your perspective on switching to the new version. Much to ponder as math prep continues today.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yep, pretty much what TracyP said! Maria says that the new MM, in addition to aligning to CC, is a thorough revision - so there are corrections, some rearrangement, some clearer explanations, the layout seems to look better, and much of these changes are in response to feedback she has gotten over the years. She feels that it is the better product: new, improved, more review, more responsive to user's needs. And yes, it's easier to make the switch (or use the new) from the beginning than it would be to switch in 5th or 6th grade.

 

As far as terminology, Katrina, it depends. The proper names of the parts (dividend, divisor, quotient) get reviewed over and over, and we remind ourselves every time it comes up, but I haven't made her memorize them or anything. Now, for concepts like order of operations and divisibility with zero, yes, I do make sure she understands these things thoroughly, but again there is frequent review, and I've never made her learn them like vocabulary.

 

I assess mastery by performance on the tests and the cum reviews. We review anything she misses on a test or a cum review, anything that wasn't clearly a computation error or careless mistake. I also pay close attention to word problems. One of the best things about MM is that she uses the word problems for constant review of everything you've learned before, they don't just have you repeating what was learned in the chapter, so ability to solve the word problems, pretty consistently and without too much help, is important to assess mastery. I do try to use Socratic questioning to lead her to figure out how to solve the problem, but try hard not to "give" her the answer - I direct her to use tools, like drawing a picture or writing what she knows or substituting really easy numbers and figuring out what operation she'd use then.

 

For your own confidence, I can suggest a couple of things that helped me when I first started teaching. One was the wonderful book Math Power: HOw to Help Your Child Love Math Even if You Don't by Patricia Clark Kenschaft. Another was Kitchen Table math, which is a book for teachers about how to teach math concepts to kids. I don't actually teach from it, but it was really helpful to read to make sure my own understanding of things was really solid before teaching them. Books 2 & 3 are the ones for this level.

[abrightmom]

Rose,

 

You have given me so much great advice! My confidence is rising because as I am reading this thread I realize I am doing many of the things suggested such as Socratic questioning, giving my kids 'tools', using the correct terminology intentionally, giving opportunities for my kiddo to 'teach' a concept, etc. I just haven't recognized them for what they are so this has really helped me and boosted my confidence that I am learning!!!

 

We did NO tests or cumulative reviews this year. There are reasons I intentionally didn't use them and in retrospect this was a bad idea because it's biting us now. Should I simply start with those and see what holes may appear? It might be simpler to use the tests and then tackle reviews on areas he struggles with.

 

My son has a strange physical response to math. Honestly, I've never written about it because it's so bizarre to me but he talked openly with me about it today because it is bothering him. His multiplication fact recall is so poor that it seems like we never worked hard for months and went out for ice cream to celebrate the completion of memorizing them. Boy, did we work hard this past year on these. He feels discouraged (and so do I!). So, we're sitting here watching Maria Miller discuss Structured Drilling so we can begin again and he starts talking about his physical issues with math. WHENEVER we start anything math related, whether it is discussion, drill sheet, flashcard, whatever, he LITERALLY begins yawning at that moment and does so repeatedly. He feels droopy and fatigued the minute math starts. I have always noticed this but not discussed it with him. TODAY he brings this up and said how much it is bothering him and it makes math hard because he feels so tired while doing it. I'm perplexed about this and don't know what to make of it ....

[Chrysalis Academy]

I think that's a good plan: go through and do the tests systematically, and then review only the things he has trouble with. I think if I were you I might use the end-of-year test as a diagnostic; it covers each chapter, is clearly divided into sections, and it is meant to be administered over several days. Take a week, have him go through and a section each day, and then decide what you need to review. Then, after reviewing, you can use that specific chapter's test or cumulative review to double check that he "got it"

 

As far as the yawning thing - I know that yawning can be a response to anxiety. Does he feel anxious about math? It sounds like you were feeling kind of anxious about teaching math (glad you are feeling better!), do you think your son feels anxiety of his own and/or is picking up on your anxiety? Other than an actual medical issue, that's the most likely explanation I can think of . . .

[abrightmom]

Good idea to use the year end test section by section over a week!! We are going to spend a bit of time getting his multiplication tables spit shined and I'll use the test in a couple weeks (we have a week of camp in there too). Although, now that I write that I want to give him the test first so I know what I'm dealing with (if anything; it could end up that he has retained well and nothing troubling will emerge).

 

Math anxiety is an interesting thought. I really don't think I've expressed anxiety toward him openly at ALL; only here or to my hubby behind closed doors. It isn't the wringing hands and open weeping type either :001_smile: ; just a nagging worry that drives me to read, research, study, etc. So, it is a profitable anxiety.

 

I'll just keep my eyes and ears open to the yawning/grogginess issue related to math. I only mentioned it because he did and he has never brought it up before. I have always noticed it but said nothing. It's like the Pavlov's dogs thing where the bell rings and they salivate or something .... (can't remember). Math begins and yawning commences. :laugh:

 

Thanks again Rose. You have been a tremendous help to me and given me advice I can implement TODAY (the printing has already begun and we have visited Maria's you tube channel).