Questions about math credits in high school

[Chava_Raizel]

My husband and I are having a disagreement about high school math and I'm hoping you can help me figure this out.

 

I have a list of required credits for our state and it clearly states that you need 3 math credits to graduate and that it must include an algebra credit. I know when I was in school the required math classes were Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2, so that's what I've always planned on having dd take. She's currently a year behind and to avoid having to "waste" a year of math I was going to have her take Pre-Algebra over the summer so she can start Algebra 1 her 9th grade year. I should point out that dd hates math and is a C+/B student in that subject. She seems to take after me where math is concerned - it does not come easy for her and she really struggles with it. She's definitely more of a literature, writing, grammar type.

 

Dh says that she doesn't need all of that math, because she's never going to use it and unless she's studying to be a doctor or engineer, she doesn't need to take more than a basic math or algebra class in college. He thinks we should focus on things like business math and other "useful" math programs and only worry about taking Algebra 1 closer to her senior year.

 

So, what say you? Does she need Algebra 1 and 2 as well as Geometry to get accepted to college? Or should I relax, listen to dh and ease up a bit on the math requirements? I'm just so anxious of "messing" her up - homeschooling high school still scares me a bit and I'm afraid of ruining her chances of a good future. Granted, she wants to be a writer and a mother - neither of which requires rigorous schooling, but still. I want to give her a good chance.

[Jane in NC]

Does your daughter have a clue where she might want to attend college? Look at the school's website to see what they require of applicants. Here in NC, applicants to the UNC system must have four high school math credits: Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and a course beyond Algebra II. Students can apply to the CC system without these math credits, but they will need math courses for their AA/AS in order to transfer to a four year school.

 

I also think that we as parents need to prepare students for whatever route they may choose to go. What if your daughter becomes captivated by chemistry or wants to be a game programmer? A thirteen year old is not a sixteen year old. As our teens mature, they develop interests unforeseen by us. So I would cover your bases with a minimal number of math courses including Algebra II.

[Lori D.]

:iagree: Totally agreeing with Jane!

 

And yes, if you want to at *all* get into a university, all universities I've looked at DO require Alg. 1, Geom, and Alg. 2 for admission. And many are now beginning to ALSO require a 4th higher math course in which Alg. 2 was the pre-requistie (so, Trig, Pre-Calc, Statistics, or other higher math).

 

re: getting into a university

Here is the list of credits typically required by a majority of universities for admission -- in other words these need to be completed PRIOR to going to college:

 

4 credits (years) = English (usually 1/2 literature, 1/2 writing, with a little grammar thrown in)

3-4 credits = Math (Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2, a higher math requiring Alg. 2 as a pre-requisite)

3 credits = Science, with labs

2 credits = Social Studies (1 credit = American Hist., 1 credit = choice)

2 credits = Foreign Language (both years need to be the same language)

1 credit = Fine Arts

 

Check with the college of interest for their specific requirements, as liberal arts/humanities colleges may require only 2 sciences, but 3 social studies credits, or other slight differences... I see you are in NH; here are the requirements for entering Univ. of NH and Southern NH Univ. Both require 3 years of higher math.

 

Note that these Math requirements are not only required by your state for high school graduation, but are also required by universities for admission into a degree program (in other words, in order to start working on a BA or BS). If a student does NOT have the credits required by the university for admission, the student usually has to take the credits through a community college and then transfer, which is additional time and a LOT more money, than if the credits can be accomplished during high school.

 

 

re: College Algebra vs high school Algebra

Also note that a College Algebra is not the same as high school Algebra. There is some overlap in topics between high school Alg. 2 and Trig. topics and a College Algebra course. See here for a sample of what is covered in a typical College Algebra course. Notice on the first page of this syllabus that the instructor states that it is assumed that high school Alg. 1 (Beginning Algebra) and Alg. 2 (Intermediate Algebra) have already been taken by the student, as the College Algebra builds on those courses.

 

A student who has not taken Alg. 1 and Alg. 2 in high school and later has to take College Algebra is going into the course under a serious disadvantage, will need to take some coursework in advance of the College Algebra, and/or will need tutoring to complete the College Algebra. And ALL degree programs I've looked at (including things like Music, Creative Writing, etc.) DO require College Algebra. :(

 

 

re: struggling with Math

Now, all that said, there are going to be students who cannot jump the Math hoop while still in high school. My younger DS with mild LDs is one of those. We spent 1.5 years EACH on Alg. 1 and then Alg. 2, and he still really never fully "clicked" with the Alg. 2. BUT... we have options:

 

DS is currently going to the community college (CC) and working on a 2-year degree. The CC does not have the same stringent required credits for admission. However, College Algebra IS still a requirement for getting the 2-year degree, so he is still going to have to take that math at some point...

 

Many students start at a CC and then transfer to a 4-year institution. There can be many benefits to this -- get a 2-year degree in a technical/vocational field and start work sooner (and there are a lot of open jobs right now in the technical/vocational fields!). It is often a much cheaper route; our CC costs 1/3rd as much as the local university (about $3000/year at the CC compared to $10,000/year at the state University). Our DS can knock off 2 years at the CC, and then transfer and finish a BA at the University and save a good $15,000 in the total final cost!

 

Also, as Jane said, a student who struggles with math at age 13 often matures in those abstract thinking portions of the brain starting about age 13-14, and so by age 16, the Algebra may not be so much of an issue.

 

 

re: taking business math or "useful" math

No argument there! A Consumer Math course and a Personal Finance course in high school would be very wise! BUT, I strongly suggest doing them in addition to -- not in place of -- the 3 higher math courses. Even our math-struggling DS with mild LDs managed a Consumer Math, and Dave Ramsey's Foundations of Personal Finance in addition to Alg. 1, Geom, and Alg. 2 while in high school...

 

 

re: due to the economy, more need today for a degree

The other big issue I see is how MUCH our world has changed since we (parents) all went to high school and college. The economy now is VERY different -- it is much harder to get a job without some sort of post-high school education (a 2-year degree if going into a technical/vocational field, a BA or BS for most other jobs).

 

 

re: due to changed society, much lower # of younger women able to stay at home/be moms

Also, our social structure has changed dramatically. I am seeing SO many young ladies in their 20s who planned on marrying and having families, and it's just not happening, for a variety of reasons. Many are now hitting 25yo or older, and are realizing they need to go back to school and get a degree in order to get a decent-paying job, because marriage/family is not happening. OR, they are married, but the economy is so bad, that they can't make it on one income, and they are discovering that the pay earned from working 40 hours a week for $8-10/hour is not going very far, and the time spent earning it is making it even harder to realize their dreams of raising a family... :(

 

Alas, to assume you will not need higher education to achieve your dreams is no longer a very valid assumption. And, double alas (lol), that means Math is part of the picture for higher education...

 

 

re: writing as a career

Finally, the goal of being a writer is admirable! I wish your DD every success! :) BUT again, the reality is that SO few people actually make money by doing so. Hopefully DD will find herself in the position of being able to write for pleasure and not *have* to make a living through writing. But... If she does need to earn a living by writing, then she is most likely going to need a BA -- and very likely a Master's degree -- in order to make herself as viable in the writing field as possible (i.e., be able to teach writing, work as an editor or technical writer, be a writing tutor, land a job that involves article writing or other writing, etc. ...)

 

 

In NO way trying to be a "downer" or trying to "scare" you. But, it is important to look around and be realistic about the new reality we are all living in, and as much as possible keep as many doors to the future open. The fact is, NOT doing higher Math courses will close a number of doors (or at least make it much harder to get through certain doors to some future goals). It is best if your family can research and discuss these topics together, so DD can decide which doors she can -- and can't -- live with being closed, as far as future opportunities.

 

Wishing you the very BEST as you and your family ponder this question! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Chava_Raizel]

Thanks everyone, this is basically what I was thinking. My dd is such a daydreamer/creative type and I feel like I'm always forcing her into a mold, which I really hate. But I really want to give her the best possible odds for her future, and clearly that means that she's going to have to deal with the high level math courses, whether she (or dh) likes it or not.

 

I did go and look at a few of the schools nearby that I think she'll want to apply to, and they all said the same thing - Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2, and many of them would "like" to see one more higher level math as well.

[kiana]

In addition to what everyone else said:

 

Your dh is not really correct about what she'll have to take in college. It is true that if she majors in English she won't need more than a 'math for liberal arts' type class, or possibly college algebra. However, these courses usually have a prerequisite of Algebra 2 and make use of high school geometry (i.e. assuming that at least the basics have been taken in high school), and if she has not had those in high school she will need to take them at a community college.

 

Furthermore, there are many majors your dd could discover that require at least some mathematical competency.

 

But with that being said -- I also really do not think that I would rush a weak math student through a summer pre-algebra class. JMO, but I think that summer classes are appropriate to two classes of students: Strong students who are trying to accelerate, and weak students who took the class previously and came close to passing, but not quite. For a struggling student, taking a class at double pace is not really appropriate. It would be totally reasonable and eminently desirable, though, to start pre-algebra during the summer at regular pace to minimize the well-known summer loss due to leaky teenage brains.

[Chava_Raizel]

But with that being said -- I also really do not think that I would rush a weak math student through a summer pre-algebra class. JMO, but I think that summer classes are appropriate to two classes of students: Strong students who are trying to accelerate, and weak students who took the class previously and came close to passing, but not quite. For a struggling student, taking a class at double pace is not really appropriate. It would be totally reasonable and eminently desirable, though, to start pre-algebra during the summer at regular pace to minimize the well-known summer loss due to leaky teenage brains.

 

This is more what I meant - I planned on having her start Pre-Algebra in May (she finished TT 7 last week), and just work through the summer possibly 6 days a week in the hopes that she could finish it and be ready to start Algebra 1 in the late fall.