Quick writing question

[DragonFaerie]

I am going to start having DS (4th grade) write one paper per week. He'll do some outlining/organizing, maybe a little research, write a rough draft, edit, and then turn in a final paper at the end of the week. I will, of course, help him along the way. What I'm wondering is what level of production should I expect from 4th grade? Should he only have to write one paragraph? Or could he reasonably be expected to write three? How many sentences should I require for each paragraph? Up until now, whenever I've had him write a paragraph, I've told him it should be four sentences long because he's in the 4th grade. :D Basically, I want to know what the "typical" 4th grader should be able to write so that I know if I'm expecting too much or if I'm making things too easy.

[Farrar]

I think you'll get very different answers for this. I think most of us have the same or a similar goal - to produce a student who is writing high quality papers in high school - both short "five paragraph" essays for exams like the AP's and the SAT's but also lengthy, properly cited research papers. However, how people think you get there varies a lot.

 

Some people would say that writing a paper a week in fourth grade is appropriate and that's certainly what it seems like most kids in public school are expected to do. Writing that much will build fluency and endurance that can come in handy later and will provide a lot of practice.

 

Some people would say writing a whole paper a week in fourth grade is far too much. That kids at that age need to be focusing on each stepping stone - to be writing better sentences and better paragraphs and be focusing on more quality work that is shorter instead of a large quantity of work that may be inferior.

 

I personally would be in the second camp. My third graders do a written narration that we correct together each week. However, it's not a "paper" per se. To me, at this level, we're focused on several things with the narrations - the memory, the organization of the information in order, the quality of the sentences, and the basic punctuation and spelling. To me, a paper is focused on planning and writing in a more formal way. It should have an introduction and a thesis. I could train my kids to write that way, but I don't think they're fully ready. I'd rather work on enriching their writing first. Once a month, we do a writing project where we do revise and edit and produce a higher quality finished product.

[brill123]

Hi,

 

Interesting question! :drool:

 

I also need to know the writing curriculum for 3rd and 4th grader..............

 

How many types of writings should he /she knows until 4/5th grade?

 

Paragraph writing tools..........

 

Thanx.........

[DragonFaerie]

Maybe using the word "paper" was misleading. I'm trying to figure out how much he should be writing in 4th grade. If I tell him to write about Benjamin Franklin, for example, should I expect one four-sentence paragraph? Is that too little? Would two paragraphs or even three paragraphs be more on-target for 4th grade? I think I tend to expect too much, but I don't want to curb that so much that I don't expect enough.

[mytwomonkeys]

I would start off with a basic 5 sentence paragraph. So, if he were writing about Ben Franklin, i would want that in his topic sentence. I would encourage 3 supporting sentences, and a closing sentence.

 

Once he masters a basic paragraph, i would focus on strong verbs, adjectives, etc (we use banish boring words).

 

If your son needs modeling or assistance, i would oblige. I would aim for two paragraphs by the end of year. That is not necessary though. That is just my personal preference and my own goal for the end of fourth grade. If your son is writing a strong paragraph by the end of the year, that is great! Multiple paragraphs are fairly simple once they can write one well. I would focus on quality over quantity for sure.

 

I hope this makes sense. Im on my phone and not wearing my glasses. I cant see, lol

[Farrar]

I'm personally always hesitant to give kids too much formula - as in, four sentences or five sentences is a paragraph. When I was teaching middle school, I often got kids who had been given these supposedly hard and fast rules that can never be broken - the thesis must always be the first sentence of the introduction, the thesis is always the only sentence in an introduction, you can never start a sentence with because, a paper is exactly five paragraphs, a paragraph is always between three sentences and six sentences and never more... Oy. I know that these were likely all "rules" that various teachers laid down because kids were struggling with this stuff and having a rule makes it easier. It's just that after a time, it started to really hold them back.

 

I would focus on a good paragraph every week. That seems reasonable. And I would feel comfortable to say that the length of a good paragraph depends on how much there is to say with the topic sentence. Sometimes it's longer and sometimes it's shorter. I would revise with that in mind and also with choosing strong words in mind.

[Ailey]

I would start with one paragraph (5+ sentences), working up to a 5-paragraph essay by the end of 5th grade.

[DragonFaerie]

Thanks, y'all. This is quite helpful. The reason I have to give him a certain number of sentences is because he will only write the absolute barest minimum that he can get away with. It's a strange road with him, actually. We've been using WWW, but he gets very frustrated with the creative writing assignments. And truthfully, I don't blame him. They ask him to write a story in one paragraph, which he cannot possibly do. He either gets stuck for an idea right from the get-go, or he can't possibly tell his tale in so short a space. And while I like that WWW teaches outlining, it seems to limit his creativity sometimes. For example, in the latest assignment, he wanted to write a story about a metal object coming from the sky and stealing away all the forest animals, with the exception of a team of animals who got away and saved the rest. He was excited about this idea until he had to try and make it fit the mold (he couldn't write about his hero because all of his animals were the heroes and such as that). He does journal writing twice a week in which he can write whatever he wants, as much or as little (though it does need to be at least four sentences), and I will not correct it at all. I want him to use his journal to be free to explore his writing and have fun with it. But, when it comes to non-fiction, "school" writing assignments, getting him to write more than the minimum is like pulling teeth. I don't hold to hard and fast writing "rules," but I do need to teach him that less is not always best. :) I think working with him on writing a good, solid paragraph sounds like the place to start. And I agree, adding paragraphs is not terribly difficult once he can write one.

[mytwomonkeys]

Thanks, y'all. This is quite helpful. The reason I have to give him a certain number of sentences is because he will only write the absolute barest minimum that he can get away with. It's a strange road with him, actually. We've been using WWW, but he gets very frustrated with the creative writing assignments. And truthfully, I don't blame him. They ask him to write a story in one paragraph, which he cannot possibly do. He either gets stuck for an idea right from the get-go, or he can't possibly tell his tale in so short a space. And while I like that WWW teaches outlining, it seems to limit his creativity sometimes. For example, in the latest assignment, he wanted to write a story about a metal object coming from the sky and stealing away all the forest animals, with the exception of a team of animals who got away and saved the rest. He was excited about this idea until he had to try and make it fit the mold (he couldn't write about his hero because all of his animals were the heroes and such as that). He does journal writing twice a week in which he can write whatever he wants, as much or as little (though it does need to be at least four sentences), and I will not correct it at all. I want him to use his journal to be free to explore his writing and have fun with it. But, when it comes to non-fiction, "school" writing assignments, getting him to write more than the minimum is like pulling teeth. I don't hold to hard and fast writing "rules," but I do need to teach him that less is not always best. :) I think working with him on writing a good, solid paragraph sounds like the place to start. And I agree, adding paragraphs is not terribly difficult once he can write one.

 

 

i totally understand :grouphug: . i have to give my kids specific expectations too. 5 sentences has worked well as a starting point in paragraph writing for my kids & it has been very easy for me to explain, teach, and help with (in previous years i felt like the blind leading the blind). i felt like i managed to always over-complicate things.

 

i agree with the pp that said you don't want to stay within a generic formula though. of course you don't. my daughter writes lovely now & is growing leaps and bounds from where we started. for us, writing is a slow process. we start very basic & simple and grow from there.

 

i taught her the same as i am teaching my son, so i hope (fingers crossed) that it translates as well for him. we have steered away from a curriculum (which i found much more constricting to adhere too) and this school year we've been writing with a loose scope & sequence with the assignments based on current studies.

 

it sounds like your son is already doing well with writing. i hope you find what works for you :)

[CatholicMom]

I am not an expert on this by any means, but what I'm having my 4th grader do is write a "hamburger paragraph" with the top bun = topic sentence, bottom bun = closing sentence, and the stuff in the middle are the detail sentences. Day 1 is his rough draft (just pick a topic, get your thoughts on paper), Day 2 he proofreads and marks up his draft (I also proofread after he does to catch any last mistakes and I show him what they are), Day 3 he writes the whole paragraph over again in his neatest handwriting, aiming for zero mistakes. Doing all this in one day would be way too much but spreading it out over 3 days seems slightly less torturous. :) I'm hoping the rough draft will get a bit better every time as he remembers to not make the same mistakes over again and by the end of the year I'm hoping he can easily write one paragraph. Whenever that's easy, I will have him do 2 paragraphs at a time.

[DragonFaerie]

Thanks for the info/suggestions. DS absolutely hates the hamburger. I have no idea why. LOL.. But, I think I've been expecting too much from him, and the "formula" doesn't work. He's very much an outside the box kid. I need to learn to work with that instead of against it.