DS (8) not doing well with WWE1

[liamtaylorsmom]

He can't remember anything after we read to answer the questions and I'm getting really frustrated with him.

 

Anyone BTDT and/or have any ideas?

[Shelsi]

We're going through WWE 1 with my 8 yr old as well but his issues are related to writing.

 

What do you do when he doesn't remember? Perhaps you could tell him what the questions are going to be and then read the passage? Some people have a really hard time internalizing something being read to them. That's actually how I am. If I read something I can tell you every single detail word for word right down to the page number it can be found on. Read that same thing to me out loud while I listen and I'll barely be able to tell you what it's about. However knowing what to listen for helps me focus.

[ErinE]

This is an area where I wish SWB had done a video of her teaching narration from the younger years...

 

My kids are still young, but this is how I do narration with my kids:

 

Phase 1) I ask questions and then say, "In a complete sentence, tell me one thing you remember about this passage." I don't worry if it's not a major point; I just want a good response. My youngest is still here. Once I can get a response without feeling like I'm pulling teeth, I move onto to the next phase.

 

Phase 2) I ask the questions and then say, "In a complete sentence, what do you think was the most important thing that happened?" If I don't think the answer is sufficient, I ask leading questions. I'll ask about a few other events I think are more important, discussing and comparing why it's more important. I try to guide my child to the main point of the passage without saying, "Here it is!" Once the child can generally state the main idea, I move onto...

 

Phase 3) I ask questions and then I give a specific narration request. For example, "Name the three significant events in this passage and how they changed people's lives." In the beginning, it's a guided exercise. The child lists the three events; I write it down on a whiteboard. I ask, "For Event 1, what happened afterwards? Can't remember? Let's go to that part of the passage." The child reads the excerpt and then gives an answer in a complete sentence. Again, I ask, "What was the major change caused by Event 2? Read it again." Another complete sentence answer. And so on until the writing is done.

 

Phase 4) I ask for a summary without a specific prompt. I encourage the child to write down specific phrases or passages to help remember (i.e. take notes). Depending on the subject matter, I may help guide the response. My eldest can do this on occasion, but still drops back a level if the information is difficult to process. He is really resistant to taking notes. preferring to use his memory, which makes for a slow writing day.

 

When my eldest was 8, I wouldn't wait to ask the questions at the end. I would ask whenever I came to the point in the passage where the question could be answered, expecting a complete answer.

[Shelsi]

This is an area where I wish SWB had done a video of her teaching narration from the younger years...

 

My kids are still young, but this is how I do narration with my kids:

 

Phase 1) I ask questions and then say, "In a complete sentence, tell me one thing you remember about this passage." I don't worry if it's not a major point; I just want a good response. My youngest is still here. Once I can get a response without feeling like I'm pulling teeth, I move onto to the next phase.

 

Phase 2) I ask the questions and then say, "In a complete sentence, what do you think was the most important thing that happened?" If I don't think the answer is sufficient, I ask leading questions. I'll ask about a few other events I think are more important, discussing and comparing why it's more important. I try to guide my child to the main point of the passage without saying, "Here it is!" Once the child can generally state the main idea, I move onto...

 

Phase 3) I ask questions and then I give a specific narration request. For example, "Name the three significant events in this passage and how they changed people's lives." In the beginning, it's a guided exercise. The child lists the three events; I write it down on a whiteboard. I ask, "For Event 1, what happened afterwards? Can't remember? Let's go to that part of the passage." The child reads the excerpt and then gives an answer in a complete sentence. Again, I ask, "What was the major change caused by Event 2? Read it again." Another complete sentence answer. And so on until the writing is done.

 

Phase 4) I ask for a summary without a specific prompt. I encourage the child to write down specific phrases or passages to help remember (i.e. take notes). Depending on the subject matter, I may help guide the response. My eldest can do this on occasion, but still drops back a level if the information is difficult to process. He is really resistant to taking notes. preferring to use his memory, which makes for a slow writing day.

 

When my eldest was 8, I wouldn't wait to ask the questions at the end. I would ask whenever I came to the point in the passage where the question could be answered, expecting a complete answer.

 

Can you just come over to my house and do writing with my ds? You sound like you have it so much more together than I do! Thanks! lol

[staceyobu]

I would ask some questions after a small section. Even immediately after the sentence.

 

Example:

The kids were Billy, Bobby, and Matthew.

 

Who were the kids?

 

As he gets better at answering, read longer amounts and work your way up.

[greenbabybottoms]

I would ask some questions after a small section. Even immediately after the sentence.

 

Example:

The kids were Billy, Bobby, and Matthew.

 

Who were the kids?

 

As he gets better at answering, read longer amounts and work your way up.

 

This is what we do too. Really with any reading aloud I do I will every few sentences or after an important part of the story.

[LindaOz]

If my ds can't answer one of the questions I go back and re-read the section that contains the answer to the question and then ask him again. That seems to work.

[Jess4879]

We had trouble with WWE because my kids got very frustrated with only getting a snippet of a story. They wanted to know "what happened next" and I got tired of trying to sync our read alouds to the WWE book. So...we gave it up and started doing narrations on our own. I came across these Narration bookmarks the other day and think they will be very helpful: http://simplycharlottemason.com/timesavers/bookmarks/

[Walking-Iris]

My advice? Don't treat narrations like a school chore. Think of them as a conversation. That is one of the main things I like about The Writer's Jungle, her advice on narrations. Honestly, if an adult wanted to talk to me about a book I had just read, and they asked me to "answer in a complete sentence, like this, repeat after me" and my responses were being molded to fit a form, I would stop talking to them! :lol:

 

We use WWE and we use the questions, (listening comprehension is important) but I don't expect complete recall, and I don't stop my child and form his sentence and ask him to repeat it back to me, or ask him to answer in two or three brief sentences. I get the point of those exercises, but I always felt that the "script" of WWE was a bit patronizing.

 

When we do narrations and answer those questions, we simply talk. I allow him to tell me what he wants to tell me. I might re-read a section that has the answer and we discuss it. I let him ask questions about it, let his thoughts meander and make connections to other things. I gently guide him into the process of summarizing the main point of the story within a natural conversation. If it's too contrived and "scripted" then children will recognize that it's not authentic. They'll see that there's an agenda.

 

My ds struggled with WWE until I read TWJ and stopped trying to fit a form. Now that we have a more laid back conversation, he can narrate and answer those questions well, because he and I aren't worried about getting it right. He actually looks forward to WWE time each day and my Kinder has been begging to do it too. WWE is more a resource for me than a spine.

[Sharon37127]

My advice? Don't treat narrations like a school chore. Think of them as a conversation. That is one of the main things I like about The Writer's Jungle, her advice on narrations. Honestly, if an adult wanted to talk to me about a book I had just read, and they asked me to "answer in a complete sentence, like this, repeat after me" and my responses were being molded to fit a form, I would stop talking to them! :lol:

 

We use WWE and we use the questions, (listening comprehension is important) but I don't expect complete recall, and I don't stop my child and form his sentence and ask him to repeat it back to me, or ask him to answer in two or three brief sentences. I get the point of those exercises, but I always felt that the "script" of WWE was a bit patronizing.

 

When we do narrations and answer those questions, we simply talk. I allow him to tell me what he wants to tell me. I might re-read a section that has the answer and we discuss it. I let him ask questions about it, let his thoughts meander and make connections to other things. I gently guide him into the process of summarizing the main point of the story within a natural conversation. If it's too contrived and "scripted" then children will recognize that it's not authentic. They'll see that there's an agenda.

 

My ds struggled with WWE until I read TWJ and stopped trying to fit a form. Now that we have a more laid back conversation, he can narrate and answer those questions well, because he and I aren't worried about getting it right. He actually looks forward to WWE time each day and my Kinder has been begging to do it too. WWE is more a resource for me than a spine.

 

I get this, I really do. This was my goal and how I thought we should get there. And this is what I tried doing when I was organizing the narration and dictation along with our content myself. We just never seemed to get past this- even now in 6th grade. When we start talking about the book- anything and everything comes out. He usually does fine answering specific questions I ask, but beyond that and regurgitating everything in his noggin- we are stuck.

 

I want to move past that and start focusing on main idea, supporting detail, summarizing, inferring things, and coming up with his own opinion to support. Which, I think, are all important in a bit more advanced writing. At this point, we are simply reading, we go back and forth about the story, and I "feed" him anything "higher order" than that- it's like pulling teeth. I want HIM to be able to do it himself.

 

Seriously, I am :bigear:- if you have some specifics on how to get past that while still maintaining a conversation atmosphere- do share! I'd love to hear it.

[Walking-Iris]

I get this, I really do. This was my goal and how I thought we should get there. And this is what I tried doing when I was organizing the narration and dictation along with our content myself. We just never seemed to get past this- even now in 6th grade. When we start talking about the book- anything and everything comes out. He usually does fine answering specific questions I ask, but beyond that and regurgitating everything in his noggin- we are stuck.

 

I want to move past that and start focusing on main idea, supporting detail, summarizing, inferring things, and coming up with his own opinion to support. Which, I think, are all important in a bit more advanced writing. At this point, we are simply reading, we go back and forth about the story, and I "feed" him anything "higher order" than that- it's like pulling teeth. I want HIM to be able to do it himself.

 

Seriously, I am :bigear:- if you have some specifics on how to get past that while still maintaining a conversation atmosphere- do share! I'd love to hear it.

 

Well, we do focus on main idea and summarizing. I just don't force it. Maybe this is hard to explain in writing. When I say I let my ds's narration meander, I don't mean "everything in his noggin." I can see that being an issue though. I usually just let him tell me his first thoughts. So after I read a passage (or he reads aloud to me--I'm staggering WWE2/3) I usually ask "so what did you think?" "Did you like that?" Questions like that. Just to give him a chance to share his initial reactions. Sometimes he has quite a bit of things he liked, didn't like, thought about. Sometimes he gives a perfect, spontaneous summery narration. Sometimes he just simply says, "It was an okay story." Or he says he'd like to read that book some time.

 

I think the key here is to give them a chance to process those "first thoughts" BEFORE you start asking review type questions or summarizing a narrative thread or finding central details. That seems to clear the brain waves for other types of ideas. The main thing that I don't ever do is to ask him to "answer in complete sentences" or only "two brief sentences" etc. I may repeat his answer back to him in a clearer way, but I don't ask him to repeat that. I think that he's learned to answer in complete thoughts and briefly just by listening to me answer his thoughts back to him in that way. I also talk about sequence. I may ask him to tell me the story (or to tell Dad the story) and to remember what happened first, and then, and last. Or I ask him to describe some detail. But it's asked in a very natural way. Not in a "no no do it this way" attitude.

 

I think, maybe, with a 6th grader (never having had a 6th grader!) you can expect more outlining to be done with a passage. So as you talk and come to a main idea, say "Let's write that down." Rinse, repeat.

 

Let him get his first thoughts and initial reactions out and then start leading him into summarizing, outlining, etc.

 

What I'm talking about is more an attitude towards teaching than a method. I don't want them to feel (at this age) that I have an agenda or that their ideas/thoughts/statements need revising. I obviously do have that goal to some extent, but I want this to become a natural thing, to hone our conversations. If I were to say "Tell me in three sentences what happened in this story" I feel I have left the natural form of conversation. Now my ds is thinking too hard about answering in just three sentences. Too much pressure, boundaries, placed on what I would like to be a natural sharing of ideas. I would rather say "can you tell me again what happened?" and then let him tell me. If I then paraphrase it back to him concisely, he learns. Or I can ask him to tell me what he thinks the most important things in the story were that happened. Sometimes we write, sometimes we don't. Sometimes I say "Let's write that down" and sometimes I leave it as a conversation. I tend to lean towards expecting these skills in history more than lit readings btw.

 

I wouldn't ever stop him and say "no no just two sentences" or "no no only tell me two details." I don't know if other users of WWE do that, but it sort of makes me cringe.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Walking-Iris

[Shelsi]

One of the reasons we started using WWE1 for my 3rd grade ds is because he had huge problems forming complete sentences in any of his writing. He's an avid reader and reads well above his level so I thought (wrongly) that he would have a good idea of what a sentence needs to be a complete sentence. It's not that we haven't worked on it in other ways. Last year he did k12 language arts independently and that worked on his writing along with proper grammar. None of it stuck though. He'd still hand me a "sentence" that was barely even a predicate let alone having a subject. The sentence wouldn't begin with a capital letter & there was seldom punctuation at the end.

 

Anyways for those reasons I absolutely request complete sentences in his answers to me. Since he is in 3rd grade and doing WWE1 we're doing 2 days of work each day. We're on week 7 in the workbook and I've already noticed a big change in his ability to form a sentence on paper for his other subjects. So for us, the "answer in a complete sentence" idea has been extremely beneficial.

[MomsintheGarden]

 

We had trouble with WWE because my kids got very frustrated with only getting a snippet of a story. They wanted to know "what happened next" and I got tired of trying to sync our read alouds to the WWE book.

I can totally relate to this! We have ended up buying or borrowing from the library every single title that is in WWE 2-4. It's worked out well because the children have been able to read titles I would never have picked, like Bunnicula.:)

[Cassy]

I would ask some questions after a small section. Even immediately after the sentence.

 

Example:

The kids were Billy, Bobby, and Matthew.

 

Who were the kids?

 

As he gets better at answering, read longer amounts and work your way up.

 

Yes, I've done this too. I also agree with Walking-Iris's advice not to treat it like a school chore. When all else fails I offer the incentive of a piece of chocolate if they listen very carefully and get all the questions right :tongue_smilie:. Totally disgraceful, I know, but it often achieves amazing results :D.

[ErinE]

What I'm talking about is more an attitude towards teaching than a method. I don't want them to feel (at this age) that I have an agenda or that their ideas/thoughts/statements need revising. I obviously do have that goal to some extent, but I want this to become a natural thing, to hone our conversations. If I were to say "Tell me in three sentences what happened in this story" I feel I have left the natural form of conversation. Now my ds is thinking too hard about answering in just three sentences. Too much pressure, boundaries, placed on what I would like to be a natural sharing of ideas. I would rather say "can you tell me again what happened?" and then let him tell me. If I then paraphrase it back to him concisely, he learns. Or I can ask him to tell me what he thinks the most important things in the story were that happened. Sometimes we write, sometimes we don't. Sometimes I say "Let's write that down" and sometimes I leave it as a conversation. I tend to lean towards expecting these skills in history more than lit readings btw.

 

I wouldn't ever stop him and say "no no just two sentences" or "no no only tell me two details." I don't know if other users of WWE do that, but it sort of makes me cringe.

 

I think your post captures the informal aspect of our narrations. They are very much a conversation between ds and me. When I ask for a certain number of answers, it's because the passage has an obvious number of events. Other times, I'll ask what happened and receive a "first, second, then, next..." answer. If it's a literature selection, he gives a different type of narration. Ds has done well tailoring his response depending on the subject matter.

 

My teaching approach is colored by my work experience. Having read reports generated by writers who firmly believe in the everything-plus-the-kitchen-sink approach, I lean towards clear, concise writing with definite intent. Thus far, it's worked for tightening up my son's output without hurting his skills. I don't interrupt him in the middle of an answer. After giving me a sentence, I will ask him if that's the best or clearest answer and discuss different ways to clean up the writing.

 

I ask for specific output because it's what works with my son. Otherwise, i would get one brief sentence or a deer-in-the-headlights look followed by a stream of consciousness. When necessary, I model his answer because at times, he will ramble without parameters. For my teaching, the intent of narration is to eventually generate writing output, so I do expect complete, good sentences as an answer. However, I firmly believe that teaching should be geared for each child AND each teacher so I would never say my way is the best; it's just what works for my son.

 

I think writing tends to cause so many homeschoolers fits, that the more we can put on this board showing different approaches, the better.

[Walking-Iris]

I think your post captures the informal aspect of our narrations. They are very much a conversation between ds and me. When I ask for a certain number of answers, it's because the passage has an obvious number of events. Other times, I'll ask what happened and receive a "first, second, then, next..." answer. If it's a literature selection, he gives a different type of narration. Ds has done well tailoring his response depending on the subject matter.

 

My teaching approach is colored by my work experience. Having read reports generated by writers who firmly believe in the everything-plus-the-kitchen-sink approach, I lean towards clear, concise writing with definite intent. Thus far, it's worked for tightening up my son's output without hurting his skills. I don't interrupt him in the middle of an answer. After giving me a sentence, I will ask him if that's the best or clearest answer and discuss different ways to clean up the writing.

 

I ask for specific output because it's what works with my son. Otherwise, i would get one brief sentence or a deer-in-the-headlights look followed by a stream of consciousness. When necessary, I model his answer because at times, he will ramble without parameters. For my teaching, the intent of narration is to eventually generate writing output, so I do expect complete, good sentences as an answer. However, I firmly believe that teaching should be geared for each child AND each teacher so I would never say my way is the best; it's just what works for my son.

 

I think writing tends to cause so many homeschoolers fits, that the more we can put on this board showing different approaches, the better.

 

Absolutely. When I did ask for specific sentences or details up front, that was when I got the deer in the headlights look. It really helps us to let those first thoughts and reactions get discussed and then to start polishing the skills. I like the paraphrase approach. "So I hear you saying/telling me..." I've noticed with my ds that he's able to give me those clear answers after listening to my modeling of one.

 

It definitely depends on the individual child. My ds doesn't have any issues with written grammar/mechanics or sentence structure. But orally he gives the shortest possible response. Mainly I have started to use WWE narrations as an attempt to get him to talk at length about a topic. He's an introvert and quiet and shy by mature. Won't talk if he doesn't have to--even to his family. WWE narrations have really helped him to gain confidence that what he has to say is important.

[lindsrae]

I wouldn't worry about the main idea part yet--that comes in WWE 2. And sometimes i skip questions that I know are challenging :)