VideoText Geometry- Frustrated

[sattlers1]

I am hoping to find support and/or direction. We (my daughter and I did this course together) completed VT algebra and both did very well. Now we are in Module B of VT Geometry and we are both somewhat frustrated.

 

So far the course is still setting down foundations, but much of what is being asked of the student, either in the work text or on quizzes, is well beyond what has been taught in the video lesson or in the student work text. It is feeling more like a college level geometry course with the level of application expected, as well as the algebra included in the course, (i.e. being asked to find the measure of a line segment - we were supposed to be able to recall the distance formula from algebra). As soon as we saw the formula, we recalled it, but it certainly didn't just pop into either of our heads.

 

While I think that would be great if extrapolation of concepts just came to us (it does more often for my daughter than me!) and if every concept in algebra was burned into memory for instant recall, that is not realistic.

 

Has anyone else used VT algebra and used their geometry? Did you stick with it? What was your experience? We are about ready to bag this and move on to finding something else.http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

 

Julie

[DidoMachiatto]

We are using VT Algebra with dd13 and dd15 and I am very pleased with the program. I am interested in your question and the replies as we consider moving into Geometry halfway through next year. Did you have difficulty in the Algebra program?

[Musicmom]

We did VT Algebra and Geometry (thru module D, which was all that was available at the time.)

 

I do remember the early modules of Geometry being frustrating, (esp in our case as we used the first edition of module A which was riddled with errors.) but we stuck it out and it turned out fine.

 

I would say hang in there, and don't be concerned about the extrapolation of concepts. This is actually a good thing to be reminded of the concepts of algebra. After all, algebra concepts (such as the distance formula) don't exist in a bubble--they are tools you will need to use over and over as you get higher in mathematics, so it's good to be reminded of them and to see how/when to apply them (just like you might learn how to use a hammer in shop class, but the purpose is to be able to later use a hammer in real life when you need to drive a nail.) Don't forget VT is a mastery program, and having to use previously learned concepts is a great way to master them.

 

You might try the approach we took: when you get stumped, try not to let yourself get too frustrated or hung up about it--just turn right to the solutions manual, see how they did it ("oh yeah! The distance formula! That's how to find it!" :001_smile:), learn from that and keep on going. We did this A LOT in the early modules of geometry and especially in the proofs. It wasn't easy going, but it worked well for us and really helped reduce the frustration.

 

Hope this helps.

[DidoMachiatto]

musicmom, at this point, how did your child's math success in later grades (currently) relate to their Videotext experience you mention? I am assuming they had additional math after the Geometry. What is the follow up of this program? Any difficulties? I am finding my daughter's progress in algebra quite amazing, and it seems like the VT program is quite aggressive.

[sattlers1]

Thanks! I agree that application of the algebra is a good thing (the mastery idea is why we picked this curriculum), just wish they would give the formula. I also like the suggestion to give ourselves permission to look at the solutions! I tend to feel that is cheating and instead get all frustrated. We will press on. I can't believe that VT geo now goes to module F! Yikes.

[sattlers1]

Yes, the VT algebra is really thorough and I would have to say the understanding of the material probably tops many other curriculums. We are just to VT geometry module B right now. Planing to possibly do statistics, business/consumer math after all the VT. Not sure what courses or what curriculum we will use at this point. My daughter is not planing a career in science or math, but she is good at it so why not ride it out?! Great thinking skills are being built.

[Musicmom]

musicmom, at this point, how did your child's math success in later grades (currently) relate to their Videotext experience you mention? I am assuming they had additional math after the Geometry. What is the follow up of this program? Any difficulties? I am finding my daughter's progress in algebra quite amazing, and it seems like the VT program is quite aggressive.

Both my dc went on to be very successful in math. I especially felt that the VT algebra was thorough and a built a solid foundation (and ds commented to that effect as well.) VT geometry was very good as well, although it was challenging and we were a bit VT'd out by the time we ended after module D. For awhile I wasn't sure I'd do that one over again, but now looking back, I can really see the thinking skills it built were very good.

 

We only went through module D (which completes all of what would normally be covered in a geometry course) because E and F weren't out yet when ds finished module D (4 years ago) and F still wasn't out when dd reached that point 1 1/2 yrs ao. After VT geometry, ds went on to do EPGY Precalculus, EPGY Calculus A, B, and C and in his senior year EPGY Multivariable Calculus. After VT, he placed halfway into the EPGY Precalc course, which we thought was pretty impressive. We followed a similar path with dd, stopping VT after module D and then she did Thinkwell Precalculus last year followed by Thinkwell Calculus this year. She has done well also--her algebra skills are very solid.

 

Our original plan was to do all of both VT algebra and geometry and then go directly into Calculus, which is the progression the author (Tom Clark) recommends. I can't speak to how well that works as we didn't end up going that way. I did like doing the separate Precalc course, though, (and for a child headed for STEM I would choose that path again, even though overlapping module D and the beginning of Precalculus is challenging) and I was really pleased at how well my dc were prepared for it having done VT.

 

Yes, the VT algebra is really thorough and I would have to say the understanding of the material probably tops many other curriculums. We are just to VT geometry module B right now. Planing to possibly do statistics, business/consumer math after all the VT. Not sure what courses or what curriculum we will use at this point. My daughter is not planing a career in science or math, but she is good at it so why not ride it out?! Great thinking skills are being built.

:iagree:And I think doing both VT algebra and VT geometry is great plan for this. As far as curriculum/courses when you finish VT, I heard Tom Clark at a convention once give a high recommendation for Abeka's business/consumer math text (he said it was excellent and he thought every high school student should take it.) My dd will be taking AP Statistics through PA Homeschoolers next year.

[sattlers1]

What is EPGY? I am slow on the abbreviations. I think the Precalc sounds like a good route. Also good to know that Tom Clark recommends the Abeka business/consumer math. I am so tired of meeting kids who don't know life math! My daughter thinks I make the stories up when I tell her about young adults that can't count back change, figure out a discount, balance a check book etc.

 

Julie

[sattlers1]

A couple more questions. How long did it take you to complete Geo through module D? Would you continue through F with another student now or would you end at D?

 

Julie

[sattlers1]

A couple more questions. How long did it take you to complete Geo through module D? Would you continue through F with another student now or would you end at D?

 

Julie

[HiddenJewel]

Dd#1 completed VT Algebra and learned a lot. Dd#2 is currently using it. Dd#1 learned a lot from VT Geometry but it was a struggle almost every day as she leans more toward algebra. She also did way more proofs in the first half of the program than she needed to. Only found that out after talking to Mr. Clark.

 

I like how VT Geometry uses the algebra throughout as that is really important for remembering the algebra concepts.

[sattlers1]

We are not to the part with proofs yet. How many should a student do? This is SO different than the geometry I took in high school. It doesn't even feel like the same subject. It is really impressive how they have woven in the algebra, I just might have liked a "heads up" reminder of the algebra concept or formula since it has been months since we used many of these.

 

We were very impressed with VT algebra. Funny, I always thought I was a geometry person, but after VT, I think I like algebra better!

 

Thanks for the encouragement!!

 

Julie

[HiddenJewel]

We are not to the part with proofs yet. How many should a student do? This is SO different than the geometry I took in high school. It doesn't even feel like the same subject. It is really impressive how they have woven in the algebra, I just might have liked a "heads up" reminder of the algebra concept or formula since it has been months since we used many of these.

 

We were very impressed with VT algebra. Funny, I always thought I was a geometry person, but after VT, I think I like algebra better!

 

Thanks for the encouragement!!

 

Julie

 

I think he said they should prove each theorem / postulate once and then do the application questions. If they need further practice there are other proofs available to do. Poor dd did them all.

[Musicmom]

What is EPGY? I am slow on the abbreviations. Julie

EPGY is Stanford University's Education Program for Gifted Youth. It's one option for outsourcing math for really mathy kids, but there are other options as well, such as the Art of Problem Solving texts/courses (which I didn't know about at the time we had to abandon our original VT plan for ds.)

 

A couple more questions. How long did it take you to complete Geo through module D? Would you continue through F with another student now or would you end at D?

 

Julie

It took a year (for A-C) plus the fall of the next year to get through Module D. That's the challenge with ending at D and going on to a precalc course--you have that overlap, unless you go through the summer or A-C go very quickly for you. We negotiated the overlap all right, though, and it turned out fine. And you really have to have module D in order to consider it a geometry course, as that's where all the important triangle concepts are taught.

 

Would I continue through F if I had another student? I'm not sure. I think it would depend on timing and the child's direction/abilities. For a mathy child headed for STEM who did algebra in the middle school years (which is what my dc did--7th & 8th), I would probably choose the VT Geo A-D followed by precalculus route again, because I think it's good to hit and solidify those advanced algebra topics again in the high school years--at a time of greater maturity (7th & 8th can seem like a long time ago). This path prepped my dc well for Calculus in high school. For a more humanities-minded child or a mathy child just beginning algebra in 9th, I think I would go all the way through VT Geo module F. That way I'd have Alg 1 & 2, geometry, trig and precalc covered pretty efficiently in just 4 years, I'd have built great thinking skills and (in the case of starting Alg in 9th) the advanced algebra was not so long ago. Technically then, the child could go on to whatever math is appropriate next (calculus or statistics or business math, etc.)

[Musicmom]

We are not to the part with proofs yet. How many should a student do? This is SO different than the geometry I took in high school. It doesn't even feel like the same subject. It is really impressive how they have woven in the algebra, I just might have liked a "heads up" reminder of the algebra concept or formula since it has been months since we used many of these.

 

We were very impressed with VT algebra. Funny, I always thought I was a geometry person, but after VT, I think I like algebra better!

 

Thanks for the encouragement!!

 

Julie

 

I think he said they should prove each theorem / postulate once and then do the application questions. If they need further practice there are other proofs available to do. Poor dd did them all.

Oh yes! About the proofs--you do NOT have to do them all!! Just enough to learn how to do them. We didn't know this when ds went through the program--poor boy did every single one, and by module D that was taking 2 hours a day!!! Ack! It was just overwhelming so I called VT to ask about it. I spoke to Tom Clark, and he said to cut way back and just do a few selected ones--and he said that in the next update he would put instructions to that effect starting with module C. So hopefully that's all cleared up and there are directions now. We had dd do far fewer proofs so it went better for her.

[angela in ohio]

My dc have done VTI Algebra and Geometry (actually, middle dd has about half a module left of Geometry.) I chose it because it was rigorous, so we have liked the challenge! :D

 

As of the Midwest convention, there still was no Geometry F. The woman in the booth said this fall, but we are just moving on to AOPS without it.

 

I also asked Mr. Clark about where to go after VTI Geometry, and he said after Module F (when it exists - I gues it will be available this fall) they can just go take CC Calc next.

[HiddenJewel]

My dc have done VTI Algebra and Geometry (actually, middle dd has about half a module left of Geometry.) I chose it because it was rigorous, so we have liked the challenge! :D

 

As of the Midwest convention, there still was no Geometry F. The woman in the booth said this fall, but we are just moving on to AOPS without it.

 

I also asked Mr. Clark about where to go after VTI Geometry, and he said after Module F (when it exists - I gues it will be available this fall) they can just go take CC Calc next.

 

Tom Clark told me recently that they will hopefully have Geometry Module F available online very soon.

[angela in ohio]

Tom Clark told me recently that they will hopefully have Geometry Module F available online very soon.

 

That's what he told me last year at the convention. :lol:

 

Luckily, VTI's content (and Tom Clark's passion for math) sold me enough that I was willing to overlook the unfinished thing. :D

[HiddenJewel]

That's what he told me last year at the convention. :lol:

 

Luckily, VTI's content (and Tom Clark's passion for math) sold me enough that I was willing to overlook the unfinished thing. :D

 

He is so nice! Apparently he had a few session left to videotape. His schedule on the road of late may have made it more difficult to accomplish all in the timeframe he wanted.

[sattlers1]

Thank you all! I talked with either Tom Clark's wife, sister or sister-in-law at our conference this past weekend. She said it you don't have the concept or can't get the answer in 5 minutes, call the helpline! She also said that is it Tom who mans the helpline and he can usually know instantly where you are going with your question. Just in case anyone is like me and a little intimidated to be put on the spot.

 

Anyway, I appreciate all the responses. My daughter is just heading to 9th grade so I know I have a reasonably math oriented child. I also appreciate the suggestions for what to do next.

[sattlers1]

So as we continue on into module C, we are still frustrated with the sudden change of terminology-inconsistent with their program, unidentified terms, etc., i.e. on the quiz for lesson 2, indirect proofs, there is an answer the appears to be substitution, but it is called addition of inequalities. Others terms that have just popped up are addition property of equality and multiplication property of equality. Those terms are not listed as properties in any of their books and I have tried looking several of them up online and in our math dictionary, some we find and others, no luck. We have found a bunch of things like this and it is causing confusion.

 

I have found the errata pages (which are many!) which helps clear a few things up.

 

On the whole I am finding this to be taught much less clearly than the algebra.

 

Suggestions? What have you all found helpful with these inconsistencies of terminology? Please tell me you noticed them. I have been so impressed with the teaching for algebra and the reasoning skills in both alg and geo, so we do want to make it through the course.

 

My husband is a math person and has confirmed that we are not crazy and that this is confusing. Some terms he has been able to help us match up the new name with the one listed in the book, others he has confirmed are just not there.

 

We have tried to call to talk to VT (we feel these are program questions, not helpline questions), and they will not talk to us since we haven't paid the fee for the helpline.

[Musicmom]

Yes, I remember the terminology inconsistencies. If I remember right, it was mostly in the reasons/justifications for steps in proofs in the solutions manuals. You look at something that's clearly substitution (or whatever), they call it something else and you go :001_huh:. And you're right, a lot of times it's not a standard term that you can look up.

 

What I did was to try not to get hung up on it (these aren't standard terms you will need to know later.) Instead, I tried to look past the terminology to the concept and not worry about what they called it. I just had my dc stick with the terms and concepts as presented in the lectures and course notes. I graded my dc's quizzes and tests, paying more attention to the actual steps they'd done and how they justified them, and not so much attention to the terminology. As they checked their own work in the worktext, they'd also come across these inconsistencies. My ds was able to just roll with it (as I did), but my dd has a low threshold for this kind of thing, so I'd have to tell her, "it doesn't matter what they called it; it's the same thing. You did it right," and try to help her see that the concept she'd used was indeed the same.

 

Does that help?

 

As you get more and more into the proofs, you'll probably find, as I did, that you really need to take the driver's seat as you correct the quizzes and tests. Beyond the terminology issue, you'll find there's often more than one way to prove something, and often the steps can be done in a number of different orders. At this point, you have to use the solution VT gives as an example of one way to do it, because your dc's solution may or may not match up, yet may be perfectly valid.

 

At some point, you may want to write to VT about the terminology issue and the confusion it's causing you. I'm sure they'll be revising the Geometry modules over the next few years (it's a relatively new program), so they may really appreciate the feedback and look into clarifying things. The Algebra program has been out for a lot of years (I think since the 1990's), so probably all of its issues are pretty well ironed out by now. Hopefully one day the Geometry will be just as set and solid.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Musicmom
fixed typo

[sattlers1]

Yes, I remember the terminology inconsistencies. If I remember right, it was mostly in the reasons/justifications for steps in proofs in the solutions manuals. You look at something that's clearly substitution (or whatever), they call it something else and you go :001_huh:. And you're right, a lot of times it's not a standard term that you can look up.

 

What I did was to try not to get hung up on it (these aren't standard terms you will need to know later.) Instead, I tried to look past the terminology to the concept and not worry about what they called it. I just had my dc stick with the terms and concepts as presented in the lectures and course notes. I graded my dc's quizzes and tests, paying more attention to the actual steps they'd done and how they justified them, and not so much attention to the terminology. As they checked their own work in the worktext, they'd also come across these inconsistencies. My ds was able to just roll with it (as I did), but my dd has a low threshold for this kind of thing, so I'd have to tell her, "it doesn't matter what they called it; it's the same thing. You did it right," and try to help her see that the concept she'd used was indeed the same.

 

Does that help?

 

As you get more and more into the proofs, you'll probably find, as I did, that you really need to take the driver's seat as you correct the quizzes and tests. Beyond the terminology issue, you'll find there's often more than one way to prove something, and often the steps can be done in a number of different orders. At this point, you have to use the solution VT gives as an example of one way to do it, because your dc's solution may or may not match up, yet may be perfectly valid.

 

At some point, you may want to write to VT about the terminology issue and the confusion it's causing you. I'm sure they'll be revising the Geometry modules over the next few years (it's a relatively new program), so they may really appreciate the feedback and look into clarifying things. The Algebra program has been out for a lot of years (I think since the 1990's), so probably all of its issues are pretty well ironed out by now. Hopefully one day the Geometry will be just as set and solid.

YES! This helps! I am the one who has the issues. My daughter is more like you, "oh, ya, that's the same thing," or "we are getting to the same place in a different way." I am the black and white one and since I do VT with my daughter it drives ME crazy and her a little bugged.

 

Thank you for validating my confusion. I also appreciate your comment about being in the driver's seat, and that there will often by more than one way to prove something etc. Being terribly black and white about things, I feel the need for permission - crazy isn't it?

 

I really appreciate your reply!!!

 

Also good suggestion to let them know in case they are not aware of this issue.

[DidoMachiatto]

My 15dd daughter registered on the SAT website (collegeboard.com) and they send a daily math question. She was so happy to be able to get the algebra questions right, and I know it's because of the solid foundation. Loking forward to Geometry next year.