Mama Lynx Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I have a rising 9th grader whose current goal is to go to MIT or similar school and study aerospace engineering; and, a rising 11th grader who likes science and is good at it, but plans to study history. My 11h grader plans to do physics next year. He hasn't had calculus, so it will be an algebra-based physics. Should I: Have the 11th grader do physics, and the 9th grader do biology? The 9th grader will, by 11th grade, be ready for calculus-based physics. Is this a better idea, given his goals? Or, could they both do algebra physics this year (to make it easier on me!), and then he can do a more advanced physics his 11th or 12th grade year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 If you 9th grader has taken algebra 1, I would have him take the algebra based physics along with the older sibling. That's what I do with my children: algebra based physics as first high school science, followed by chemistry and biology, and calculus based physics. The little bit of trigonometry that is needed for an algebra based physics class can be learned in a single afternoon- it's basically SOHCAHTOA and the Pythagorean Theorem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Lynx Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 He's had more algebra than his older brother, actually. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) If you 9th grader has taken algebra 1, I would have him take the algebra based physics along with the older sibling.That's what I do with my children: algebra based physics as first high school science, followed by chemistry and biology, and calculus based physics. The little bit of trigonometry that is needed for an algebra based physics class can be learned in a single afternoon- it's basically SOHCAHTOA and the Pythagorean Theorem. What book are you using for algebra based physics? Is this a Conceptual Physics or would that be considered physics for students who haven't mastered Physics? ETA: that would be for those who haven't mastered ALGEBRA. Is there a handy chart anywhere that compares texts for various sciences? Maybe noting that this one is a high school level, while that one is intro non majors college and that other one is college level for STEM majors and this last one is for those majoring in the field? Does such a thing exist? I've been noticing that there are different texts by the same author(s) that may even have the same title. Earth Science by Tarbuck & Lutgens for example, although I think I also was finding both high school level and college level versions of Hewitt's Conceptual Physics. (And if my college classmates could see me having this conversation at all they would laugh. Back then I was all about comparative literature and differences in languages. How things change.) Edited February 9, 2012 by Sebastian (a lady) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) What book are you using for algebra based physics? Is this a Conceptual Physics or would that be considered physics for students who haven't mastered Physics? Since you quote my message, I guess you are asking me and not OP? I am using College Physics by Knight, Jones and Field for 9th grade algebra based physics. The book is very well written, and the level is fine to use for a high schooler who is strong in algebra and has a minimum of trig knowledge. It is an introductory text for biology majors used to teach a two semester course. Conceptual physics is just that: conceptual. It is a nice option, but it does not warrant the designation of an algebra based course, because one of the main objectives is to eliminate math as much as possible and focus on concepts only. A student with prealgebra and a very basic idea that symbols stand for quantities and can be manipulated would do fine with Conceptual (Hewitt). It dos not require the student to be proficient in algebra 1 (no quadratics, no systems of equations, hardly any manipulations of formulas) Is there a handy chart anywhere that compares texts for various sciences? Maybe noting that this one is a high school level, while that one is intro non majors college and that other one is college level for STEM majors and this last one is for those majoring in the field? Not that I know of. I would go to the publisher's website and find out what the target audience for a specific book is. I've been noticing that there are different texts by the same author(s) that may even have the same title. Earth Science by Tarbuck & Lutgens for example, although I think I also was finding both high school level and college level versions of Hewitt's Conceptual Physics. I have not been able to figure out the real difference. And honestly, I think most high schoolers would be just fine with an intro college text for non-majors, because these never expect any previous knowledge of the subject, but start from the very beginning. They may have a bit smaller font and fewer pictures, but as it is, high school texts resemble picture books anyway, so the fewer pics and colors and sidebars, the better for actually using.(OK, don't get me started on this) The college books have fewer "activities", "connections", annoying pages in the middle of a section and are more no-nonsense and to the point. Edited February 9, 2012 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy in Richmond Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I have a rising 9th grader whose current goal is to go to MIT or similar school and study aerospace engineering; and, a rising 11th grader who likes science and is good at it, but plans to study history. My 11h grader plans to do physics next year. He hasn't had calculus, so it will be an algebra-based physics. Should I: Have the 11th grader do physics, and the 9th grader do biology? The 9th grader will, by 11th grade, be ready for calculus-based physics. Is this a better idea, given his goals? Or, could they both do algebra physics this year (to make it easier on me!), and then he can do a more advanced physics his 11th or 12th grade year? If you're planning to have your ninth grader complete both algebra-based physics and calc-based physics, then you might want to consider doing them in back-to-back years. My son did just that, and we were happy with his mastery & retention of the material. My daughter jumped right into calc-based physics, and while she did fine, she doesn't have quite the same long-term mastery (but she's not pursuing science in college). Giancoli's Physics is another highly regarded choice for algebra-based physics. It requires a working knowledge of basic trig and vectors. It's also well-aligned to both the SAT 2 physics and AP Physics B tests. If your son wants to take the SAT 2 physics (MIT requires one SAT 2 science test), I'd recommend that he should take it at the end of his alg-based physics year. The AP Physics C calculus-based physics curriculum is more in-depth and mathematical, but doesn't touch on many of the areas of physics such as optics or waves that are covered on that exam. We used the same strategy for chemistry: a year of honors high school chem followed by a year of AP chem. My daughter did them in back-to-back years, and again, it was very useful in jumping right into the AP level successfully. The May testing date comes around soon enough anyway, and any head start they have through the easier material at the beginning of the AP course only makes life easier.:) My kids saved biology for 12th grade and did the AP level. (well, dd did do Apologia bio in middle school, but it wasn't all that helpful since AP is so much more comprehensive). Bio is my son's least favorite subject, and his main motivation in studying it was to test out of the freshman bio course at MIT. Now MIT doesn't allow AP bio credit any longer, but at least the material would still be fresh in their heads if they studied it last & did end up at a tech school where it's required. Hope that helps. I'm currently a Parent Connector and I'm always glad to field questions about MIT if you have any.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Lynx Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Kathy, thank you! That sounds like a good option. I hadn't thought of having him take the courses back to back, but you're right, that must do wonders for comprehension. I'm sure we'll have lots of questions along the way. Thanks so much! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Since you quote my message, I guess you are asking me and not OP?I am using College Physics by Knight, Jones and Field for 9th grade algebra based physics. The book is very well written, and the level is fine to use for a high schooler who is strong in algebra and has a minimum of trig knowledge. It is an introductory text for biology majors used to teach a two semester course. Conceptual physics is just that: conceptual. It is a nice option, but it does not warrant the designation of an algebra based course, because one of the main objectives is to eliminate math as much as possible and focus on concepts only. A student with prealgebra and a very basic idea that symbols stand for quantities and can be manipulated would do fine with Conceptual (Hewitt). It dos not require the student to be proficient in algebra 1 (no quadratics, no systems of equations, hardly any manipulations of formulas) Not that I know of. I would go to the publisher's website and find out what the target audience for a specific book is. I have not been able to figure out the real difference. And honestly, I think most high schoolers would be just fine with an intro college text for non-majors, because these never expect any previous knowledge of the subject, but start from the very beginning. They may have a bit smaller font and fewer pictures, but as it is, high school texts resemble picture books anyway, so the fewer pics and colors and sidebars, the better for actually using. (OK, don't get me started on this) The college books have fewer "activities", "connections", annoying pages in the middle of a section and are more no-nonsense and to the point. Thanks. Out of curiosity, what is your threshold for age in different topics? I try to get newer bio books, but it seems like physics and chem can be quite a bit older (as in 10 years or so) at least on the high school level, which I recall as being more into mechanics and waves than atomic theory (but maybe I'm dating myself). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Out of curiosity, what is your threshold for age in different topics? I try to get newer bio books, but it seems like physics and chem can be quite a bit older (as in 10 years or so) at least on the high school level, which I recall as being more into mechanics and waves than atomic theory (but maybe I'm dating myself). You can take a fifty year old physics book and be fine, LOL. Most of the time spent is on mechanics and electrodynamics. The physics that has changed in the last fifty years is only touched on very briefly or not discussed at all in a standard course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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