Teaching creative writers structure

[Kfamily]

I was wondering if maybe I've been frustrated with teaching writing, because I couldn't even begin to identify what I needed in order to accomplish it. I was just looking at WWS and while I liked what I saw, I do know that this approach would frustrate my older dd (9th). I was thinking that maybe there are two different types of students with regard to learning how to write (well, probably more than two types, but ....). Would it be fair to say that some students need a program with structure, and from that structured writing creative touches are added and some students need a program with a creative focus, but with structure added (to keep them from wildly spinning all over the place)? I was trying to decide which writing books and approaches fit each of these two categories.

 

Structured with creative touches added:

IEW

WWS

Lively Art of Writing

 

 

 

Creative with structure added:

These are the ones I'm looking for...

 

I was thinking that imitation style writing programs might fit here. Both my dds who fit this category seem to find this style more appealing. This would be progams like Classical Writing and Imitations in Writing.

 

What do you think?

What others would fit this category?

 

Is there anything else I'm not considering...?

For those of you with students who are creative but need structure, what approaches have worked best for you?

 

Thanks!

[Rhonda in TX]

My DD is a very creative writer, but needed structure. I chose IEW. I don't stress dress-ups with her much, but it's giving her much-needed guidelines for report writing. Her voice still comes through, so I don't feel that it has restricted her at all.

[jibaker103]

My 10th grade ds is a fabulous creative writer but his essays are all over the place. He tries to write them like a creative piece and it shows. For this very reason we have used IEW and currently using WWS. We will be moving on to CW next semester to see how he does with imitation. My goal is to give him a bag of tools to pull out and choose from for any writing assignment he may have. No one writes one way all of the time and he is starting to understand that!

[Kfamily]

Hmmm, my dd loves to write creatively and even enjoys/desires to mimic great writing models, but the types of assignments in books such as The Lively Art of Writing (I've looked at this book so many times...:lol:) are the exact opposite of the types of topics on which she wants to write. I'm trying to decide which programs and with them which methods will motivate her to learn the structures. I'm thinking that at least with Classical Writing or any of the progym methods I can at least use the all-the-famous-writers-you-admire-so-much-learned-how-to-write-this-way card on her. :001_smile: I think I can capture her interest and use it to encourage her to harnass her voice and communicate it effectively. Sigh...she's creative but very stubborn. I love working with her...so much more effective than trying to work against her. She doesn't resist Classical Writing, and I already own Maxim so I think we will just push hard and finish this. (We've already done some work from it.) From here, I'm not sure where to go. We are working hard in grammar and will continue to this year. I may just go on with Chreia...

Thanks Rhonda and Jennifer, I do have some paperwork from IEW and will give it another look. I may be able to use some elements from it. (I have watched the main video...forgot the name of it.)

 

I also have The New Oxford Guide to Writing, Elements of Style and A Rulebook of Arguments. Maybe I need to read through WTM and see if I can use these books to create something for her. I also have the Student Writing Handbook.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Kfamily

[jibaker103]

Hmmm, my dd loves to write creatively and even enjoys/desires to mimic great writing models, but the types of assignments in books such as The Lively Art of Writing (I've looked at this book so many times...:lol:) are the exact opposite of the types of topics on which she wants to write. I'm trying to decide which programs and with them which methods will motivate her to learn the structures. I'm thinking that at least with Classical Writing or any of the progym methods I can at least use the all-the-famous-writers-you-admire-so-much-learned-how-to-write-this-way card on her. :001_smile: I think I can capture her interest and use it to encourage her to harnass her voice and communicate it effectively. Sigh...she's creative but very stubborn. I love working with her...so much more effective than trying to work against her. She doesn't resist Classical Writing, and I already own Maxim so I think we will just push hard and finish this. (We've already done some work from it.) From here, I'm not sure where to go. We are working hard in grammar and will continue to this year. I may just go on with Chreia...

Thanks Rhonda and Jennifer, I do have some paperwork from IEW and will give it another look. I may be able to use some elements from it. (I have watched the main video...forgot the name of it.)

 

I also have The New Oxford Guide to Writing, Elements of Style and A Rulebook of Arguments. Maybe I need to read through WTM and see if I can use these books to create something for her. I also have the Student Writing Handbook.

I know exactly what you mean about working with instead of against as my ds is very headstrong as well! Did you know CW offers Maximum and Cheria Tutorial in 1 month (you have access to the material for 3 months) and then you can move on to Herodotus. According to SWB if you complete CW you do not need Rulebook for Arguments and if you complete the New Oxford Guide to Writing you do not need to complete Elements of Style.

 

After a lot of thinking, researching, posting, and getting advice from SWB my plan is to complete the following over the next 3 years instead of what she outlines in the rhetoric section of TWTM:

 

WWS (12-18 weeks)

Maximum & Cheria in 1 Month (4-8 weeks)

Herodotus (24 weeks)

Plutarch (12 weeks)

The New Oxford Guide to Writing (30 weeks)

They Say, I Say (6 weeks)

[Nan in Mass]

I've taken a slightly different approach. I think of writing programs as either teaching style or not teaching style. (I'm not sure style is the right word. I'm going to use it anyway. By style, I mean wording.) Writing Strands does not teach style. That is one of the reasons that I stuck with it. It teaches organization, how to approach the writing process, forms for various types of papers, and some rudimentary literary analysis by having the student write dialogue, description, and make up characters and stories. My children selected their wording with great care, so a program that made them alter that wording would have resulted in them shutting down and refusing to write anything. Since they were reluctant in the first place, I chose carefully. I think they learned wording from all their reading. Sigh - I tried a few imitative programs with them but since they consistently alter directions and instead produce something nice enough that I don't want to critisize it, those didn't work very well for us. I found Writing Strands frustrating and tried other things over and over but we kept coming back to Writing Strands. As soon as I started great books with them, I realized that the program had actually laid down a very good foundation for our discussions. They had were aware of the choices that authors make because Writing Strands had made them write things using those choices. Some examples are choosing to write in the first person, dialogue that sounds like a particular character, body language used by a character, different settings, man versus nature or man versus man, where one puts the climax. It also taught them to write expository papers and it addressed science papers, which I have not seen in most of the programs I looked at in our struggles. Even with Writing Strands, I had to give my sons more latitude to redesign the assignments, but at least they were fairly easy to alter. It didn't try to make them write poetry, which would not have gone over well. In general, except for the assignments in Writing Strands which were designed to teach a specific lesson about writing fiction, I avoided having mine do any sort of creative writing. They did it, but I didn't require it for school. For my children, the creative process wasn't something they wanted mixed with school "on demand". They did many creative projects for school but they were designed by themselves, not forced upon them in various different situations.

 

HTH

Nan

[Kfamily]

Wow, thank you both!

 

Jennifer, I love your outline. I didn't know about the 1 month course and I didn't know that New Oxford would cover Elements of Style. This looks like a plan that would work for us. I keep hesitating with CW, because it didn't seem like we could get to where we needed to be in a timely manner using their books. I will give this a lot of consideration.

 

Nan, thank you again! I hadn't considered Writing Strands, but with the way you describe it, I am going to look at it again. It would provide the structure we both need, but give us lots of room for creativity. I like this approach too.

 

I forgot to mention that I have Rhetoric in the Classic Tradition (I think that's the right title.). I think I have almost everything I need to teach writing except a good plan for carrrying it out over the next couple of years.

[laughing lioness]

Would it be fair to say that some students need a program with structure, and from that structured writing creative touches are added and some students need a program with a creative focus, but with structure added

 

I like to think of students as either linear or global. Global thinkers tend to want (need? I do.) the big picture first. Once they have the big picture, they can plug in the details.

Linear thinkers want (need? My dh does.) the details and from those creates a whole.

 

Maybe you are thinking that the student who needs a creative focus is more global, while the student who needs strucute first is more linear?

 

Either way, all writing needs structure. Good writing needs style. I've used IEW for all of my kids, (global and linear thinking) and we've had great success. I think the key is to find a program that YOU (the teacher) understands and can communicate effectively to your students. I like the structure and style of IEW, as well as the diversity of products they now offer.