How do you schedule multiple grammar/writing resources?

[Create Your Ritual]

Call me crazy, but I have A LOT of writing / grammar resources that I would like to dip our toes into this year. Here is the list -

 

MCT Town Level

 

Killgallon Sentence Composing for Elementary

 

WWE 2 / 4 (one for 8 yr old, one for 10 yr old)

 

ALL / WWS - honestly ds8 is as adept at grammar as dd10 since they both started together last year, so I am keeping them together if I can through ALL. WWS will mostly be for dd10 when I see she is working well through WWE4.

 

Writing Tales 2 (then Classical Composition Fable)

 

I know... I know.. that looks like A LOT. In all fairness it is, BUT dd is a quick reader and she works through material fairly quickly. They both did MCT Island last year (all components), WWE1 - 2, R&S 3 English, and a Great Editing Adventure sentence per day.

 

Last year I had them complete their R&S English, then the edit sentence, and in the beginning of the year we added in Grammar Island.

 

Writing would come after break time, where we worked through more of MCT Island (I would rotate through poetry, writing, sentence analysis, etc. depending on the day) and then they would do Writing Tales 1 (which we worked through in 5 months doing a lesson a week).

 

My question is this .. is there a better way to work with all of these resources that I haven't come up with yet?

 

I want dd to learn outlining skills (thus the WWS), and I have heard writing paragraphs from parts of MCT Town can be difficult and perhaps skills learned in WWS might be beneficial. I just can't seem to figure out the best schedule for working these resources together, and wondered if others had come up with something?? I would just be nice to know what others are doing with multiple writing/grammar resources. Thanks.

[Lori D.]

Several ways to juggle multiple programs:

 

- Complete all of one program (that takes you less than a year), then start the next and use it to finish out the year; do not try to do ALL of the secondary program; "skim" and just use sections that are new material, or gives students a different perspective on specific topics, or as review and strengthening of topics they were weak on.

 

- Do a unit of one program, then set it aside, and supplement with the parts of other program(s) that cover the same topic, but from a different point of view.

 

- For any topic, but esp. for writing, stick with one program as the spine, and maybe one day a week (or one week every 6 weeks) switch to another program for a different perspective, or for a cool writing assignment -- adds a little "spice" to the everyday routine every once in awhile.

 

 

What I would NOT do:

 

- Do some of EVERY program EVERY day (that is sure to "drill and kill" the love of learning through WAAYYY TOOOO MUCH schoolwork).

 

- Feel you MUST do ALL of every program just because you own it (just use the "best bits" of each -- or, use one as a spine and use most of it, and then add in the (much fewer to prevent overkill) "good bits" of the other programs).

[Embassy]

I tend to approach a subject with many different resources as well. I find that switching from one thing to another helps keeps things interesting. While I haven't used all the resources you listed I might do something like:

 

Day 1: MCT and WWE

Day 2: ALL and Killgallon

Day 3: MCT and Writing Tales

Day 4: WWE and ALL

Day 5: Killgallon and MCT

Day 6: ALL and Writing Tales

ETC....

 

I would either pick and choose the best bits or take more than a year to complete it all. My kids enjoy having every day a little different.

[Create Your Ritual]

Thank you both. Those are two totally different approaches and I find value in them both! ;-) Along with trying to figure out how to implement all these curriculums within one subject, I am trying very hard not to feel like we are rushing from this subject to that one. I am leaning towards doing math, latin, writing, grammar & silent reading daily ... but then rotating through science & history each month, and then all the OTHER subjects are split into 6 week increments. Things like literature analysis, geography, philosophy, art, etc. I am hoping this feels less like I am a drill sergeant with a whistle! I really love writing & grammar instruction the best though, which is probably why I overdo it with choices in this subject. ;-) I definitely see the value in doing a unit in one program and supplementing in other ways of doing that same thing from the other curriculums, so that we are at least sticking to one area of learning at a time. Perhaps this would keep the consistency, without the boredom that comes from one program.

 

I think my main problem is that this is the first time I am really teaching outlining, paragraph structure, and things like that. Up until now it's just been 'writing' and correcting sentences, spelling and mistakes. I haven't felt like I was having to teach HOW to write. ;-) That's probably what's got me hyped up about how to do it, and where to start.

[1Togo]

Similar to Lori D.'s suggestion, one option would be to work in quarters.

 

1st Quarter

WWE, WWS

ALL

Killgallon

 

2nd Quarter

MCT

ALL

Killgallon

 

3rd Quarter

Writing Tales

ALL

Killgallon

 

4th Quarter

CC Fable

ALL

Killgallon

 

When you look at it this way, you can see that it's possible to finish two resources; i.e. Killgallon and ALL, and you will do 1/4 of the others. I understand how various resources appeal to you, but there is only so much time in the day. Using a schedule like the one above will give you and your children time enough to dig in and see what works. For example, we started last year with MCT Town Level. We completed the grammar and vocabulary books, which took about 1/2 of the year, and they were a good fit for dd. However, we only completed one quarter of the writing. We tried something else for the second quarter before commiting to CC. Perhaps trying out different approaches for a year will help you decide a direction for writing. I don't know about Writing Tales, but CC takes at least 45 minutes per day for the Fable and Narrative level. If you add Killgallon and ALL, English will be about 1.5 hours per day. When you are working with CC, you may not need Killgallon since CC includes sentence work.

 

Btw, after Fable, CC will be a full hour or more, so if you are planning to stay the course with CC, it will be very difficult to fit in another composition curriculum. You can add a straight grammar program like AG and outlining for a subject like history or science (outlining only not writing from the outline), but anything else will be overwhelming. In any event, after the first four levels of CC, you can add essays in subject areas like history, lit, and science, so nothing else is needed for composition until rhetoric.

Edited July 23, 2011 by 1Togo

[Create Your Ritual]

Thanks 1Togo. I am going to study your suggestions today and try to work this in my mind. ;-) I have both CC Fable & Narrative ordered, but with neither of my dc knowing about outlining yet I think I might be jumping the gun to do it with them. At least that is my impression from the samples. Writing Tales 2 looked less daunting for ds8, who writes well and loves WT1 last year, and I have to keep them together at this point with many subjects.

 

I am really waiting for everything to ARRIVE finally, now that CVA has it all ordered for me, so that I can dig in and take a look at everything. You are absolutely right, once I get fully into CC I might only be able to teach it and possibly WWS or Killgallon down the road and not add in an additional writing curriculum.

[Capt_Uhura]

Here's how I would do it.

 

Some things I consider separate from writing. They are accessories. That would include any kind of daily edit sentence, Sentence Composing, practice town. My boys would have their practice town sentence, math facts practice, daily edit as part of their morning independent work. Later in the day, we'd all go over the practice town sentence together and diagram it. Those were done 4-5 days/week. Some days the Sent Comp requires writing a paragraph and on those days it takes longer so you have to adjust your week depending on where you are. For the SC where you're matching up halves of sentences, we did orally. Some times I typed them in, and DS just had to cut and paste, that way he had to input any punctuation required to join the two halves. If you're having your DD do all of the writing in SC, that would require amending everything I'm going to write below.

 

Then during your regularly scheduled writing block I'd do the following.

 

I would not start WWS until you are finished w/ what you want to accomplish w/ WWE4. I did the WWS beta test w/ WWE4 and we really ended up dropping WWE4 until the Beta Test was done. They really are sequential in my opinion.

 

Start the year w/ MCT Grammar Town. That takes you about 6-8weeks and you're done with it. At that time, start Practice Town 1 sentence daily. You can weave in WT2 during this time. Once your'e done w/ what you want to get out of WT2, begin Classical Comp fable.

 

After you're finished w/ MCT Grammar Town, start ALL. You might be able to skip the beginning parts of ALL, I know my son will after having done Grammar Town.

 

Ok that leaves MCT Paragraph Town. That can be started after you finish Grammar Town. The whole first part of PT is reading and discussion w/ some 4 level sentence analysis, some grammar exercises. Nothing major so during this time of discussion, I'd get what you want to get out of WT2. Once you're finished all the discussion part of PT, you then start the writing portion which is about Lesson 9 or 10 in the teacher book. Here is where I would use the WWS methods to do the PT lessons. This all depends on when you finish WWE4 and begin WWS. So really, the spine of your program would be WWE4/WWS and using that to do the lessons in PT. The topics given in WWS can be used to fulfill the PT assignments, keeping in mind the goal for the PT assignment. Some of them are distinct so you'll just have to pick and choose.

 

What you could do is to just start WWS and skip WWE4 for now. If she does well w/ WWS you're good to go. Then all you'd need to weave in is the dictation from WWE4. If she needs the narration practice and writing down her narration, delay WWS and work on WWE4 until she passes the end of year assessment for WWE4.

 

my half-cent....I've used all all the programs you're using except for CC and WT.

 

ok gotta run but I'll come back and reread what I've written and make adjustments if needed. Does that make sense?

[yellowperch]

This original post is one I could have written (with some variations of course), and the responses are the advice I sorely need.

[1Togo]

The fact that your children do not know how to outline should not stop you from using CC Fable. You will teach them to outline at that level, and it's the easiest kind of outlining because they are outlining a narrative instead of non-fiction. In addition, at the Fable level, they are only outlining a one-paragraph story. The outlining is not difficult. Also, I don't really see the need for Killgalon with CC since one of the exercises for each CC lesson is writing sentence variations. It would be double dipping. Btw, after the first two levels, CC moves away from using an outline as a writing prompt, so if you are sold on outlining as a percursor to writing, CC may not be for you.

 

FWIW, I believe that mixing so many approaches will confuse everyone -- the teacher and the student. I know that some mothers are good at pulling from many sources as they plan their weekly lessons, but I try to keep things moving from Point A to Point B by using curriculum at a time. In addition, there is more than enough work with any of these approaches to keep your children busy. Honestly, I think your dilemma is trying to decide what you want to use. If you like SWB's approach, then trust what she offers and just go foward with it. If not, then I would choose between MCT/Killgalon or CC.

Edited July 23, 2011 by 1Togo

[Capt_Uhura]

Ah yes, that was my point in stating I've never used CC. I do have WT1 and 2 and have read through it.

 

If CC contains a lot of re-working sentences, sentence variety etc I wouldn't do Kilgallon. I would also skip the grammar, vocab exercises in WT.

 

You didn't mention CE1? Will you be hoping to add that as well? What about MCT Poetry?

 

Now that I think about it, I thought the draw of programs like CC is that it was all built into the program? WHen I was looking at some of those programs, it seemed like I had the bits and pieces put together by using WWE, Kilgallon, outlining, diagramming whereas other folks were getting that all in one cohesive program. I haven't seen CC so I can't speak to that but that was my impression from reading about it here and in my discussions with 1TOGO.

 

And if you're doing CC Fable, isn't that very similar to Writing Tales?

[1Togo]

Hey Capt,

 

You are correct that CC is complete except for grammar. However, the op seems to leaning toward using this year to try different approaches. Trying a different writing approach each quarter might help with direction. One quarter with MCT was all we needed to know that we didn't want to continue on. I don't know much about WT, but from what I have read, I think it can be eliminated from the mix since it sounds similar to CC. Actually, CC is the progym, and if someone doesn't want to follow a classical path of progym to rhetoric then it can be eliminated as well.

[Create Your Ritual]

Yep... that's my dilemma 1Togo. I just need to choose. From using MCT Island last year, I would be hard pressed to put it away since it was such a big hit. However; I never felt it gave them complete grammar instruction or sentence editing, so I supplemented. At the Island level I honestly felt MCT was more of a grammar program so that is where it got lumped in alongside R&S, but being new to hs I didn't want to put all my eggs in one basket. ;-)

 

Writing Tales was honestly the most fun they have had in a writing program, as far as retelling the stories. I need to go over CC Fable more when it comes, but the leaps from WT1 to CC seemed larger than what I thought my dc were ready for.. so that was where the WT2 and Killgallon was brought in, as I felt like they would be good precursors to anything asked in CC. (I may be wrong on this, as I am just basing it on the samples seen.)

 

As far as WWE 4 goes, dd is quite good at reading and narrations, so I will start there, but I see us moving out of it and into WWS, minus the dictation. I like her being able to hold a lot of things in her head. She likes it too. Last year she memorized the first paragraph of The Hobbit in just a few minutes and still likes to narrate it to people. I liked the instruction and the stories used in the ALL and WWS samples better than I like the ones in R&S, and my dc didn't really 'enjoy' R&S like they did WWE last year. So, I need to find a better alternative unless there is something I don't know about R&S 5.

 

Not that I am 'trying' to rush her per say, but there are a lot of other assignments in history and science that have her doing outlining, so I thought it would be a good thing for her to be comfortable with.

 

You are absolutely right though, some of these programs are redundant. My goal is to try and get a feel for the level they are teaching the material and is there a natural progression from WT2, to Killgallon to CC or are they all just the same? Does one teach the concept more clearly than the other, etc. I am hoping this next week EVERYTHING shows up, and I can just sit down and look at it all and tell this more clearly... because it does seem like I am asking a lot.

 

I most likely will stick with a few of them. I need to take a closer look at WT2 vs CC Fable though for sure.

 

Capt_Uhura, thank you for posting what you did last year. I was hoping that you would see this. I appreciate it, as I know we are about a year behind you and I have learned a lot from both you and 1Togo about writing. I definitely don't want to confuse them about writing, but honestly last year they took it in stride that they were doing MCT Island, WWE, WT1, R&S and daily sentence editing. I know though as the levels progress that is unrealistic to expect to hang onto all of that.

Edited July 23, 2011 by SaDonna

[Create Your Ritual]

Actually, CC is the progym, and if someone doesn't want to follow a classical path of progym to rhetoric then it can be eliminated as well.

 

My plan is to definitely seek a classical path. But, I also need to make sure they are somewhat ready to step into a high school writing class, as my feeling is that by 9th grade dd and ds will want to head to high school.

 

*** as I re-read that, I almost had to laugh about wondering whether what I was teaching them would prepare them for public high school. I guess what I was getting at is that I want the classical approach taught, as I felt it would teach 'thinking' skills as it taught 'writing' skills. I just didn't want certain concepts or wordage to not be familiar if they stepped into high school. It's a rough enough time as it is at that age. So it does feel like I have one foot in the classical approach, and one foot in the 'other' door... though I am not sure what OTHER is at this point. ;-) ***

Edited July 23, 2011 by SaDonna

[Capt_Uhura]

 

Capt_Uhura, thank you for posting what you did last year. I was hoping that you would see this. I appreciate it, as I know we are about a year behind you and I have learned a lot from both you and 1Togo about writing. I definitely don't want to confuse them about writing, but honestly last year they took it in stride that they were doing MCT Island, WWE, WT1, R&S and daily sentence editing. I know though as the levels progress that is unrealistic to expect to hang onto all of that.

 

Yes, I think what you did last year fills in the holes nicely. However, once you have CC in your hands, you'll be able to tell if there are any holes. I think w/ a program like CC or CW, that would be mostly all that you do. You wouldn't need Killgallon for example. Now, MCT is easy enough to add in if your DC like it, read and discuss while cuddling on the couch .

 

WWS will get you to two level outlines by the end of the year. There are also some sentence exercises in WWS.

 

The daily edit stuff we do, I do mostly for annual testing which is required in my state so if you don't have to do testing, is that really necessary or can DC learn those skills in their own writing?

 

I've looked at CW. I think I've read that if a student has done WT1/2 they can go into Homer, skipping Aesop. It may be something similar w/ CC, I don't know. Maybe doing WT1/2 and CC Fable might be redundant.

 

Unfortunately, the only thing you can do is buy them all and read through them and make your decision.

 

For 6th grade, we will be doing WWS and finishing up PT moving right into Voyage when we're done. WE'll start Grammar Voyage at the start of the school year, then move into ALL after that, skipping all the parts that DS is strong on.

 

I think if your question is not how to combine them but how to test drive them and then choose path, then I like doing them in semesters is probably the best path.

 

time to cut the grass....

[Create Your Ritual]

I tell you 1Togo.. it is hard to discount the test scores from CC when you read this.

 

"The curriculum’s success lies in the core skills being broken down into manageable subskills, and the results are truly astounding. Over the last ten years, the Classical Composition developer, Mr. Jim Selby of Whitefield Academy in Overland Park, Kansas, has found that all students are able to master these skills. Whitefield Academy has a 100% qualification rate on the optional essay portion of the college entrance exams (ACT and SAT) versus the national average of 23%, or has gained college credits with successful completion of the English AP exams. Qualification (min score of 8 on a scale of 1-12) requires a that a cohesive and coherent essay be written within a 30 minute period.

 

The curriculum has proven to produce creative, innovative writers who can think compositionally, capable of generating a wide array of arguments and support, allowing them to choose high quality components for their specific writing projects. Students who have completed this program consistently report their ability to complete college writing assignments in a fraction of the time it takes their peers."

 

I AM sold on the classical approach, I just need everything to get here so I can settle this once and for all.. hopefully!!! ;-) I still think the kids are going to want to stick with MCT for now, as they loved the story. I like the idea of moving from Grammar Town into ALL. I just need to decide does adding WWS benefit our lives more than CC alone. I know that I pm'ed some of you about PBW, as I finally had a chance to review it. It stopped me in my tracks when I realized that what he was teaching was exactly what the MSP in our state was wanting them to use to write with. We have to do the MSP for now, and I need them to be confident in their ability to write a timely and well ordered 'essay' type paper, but still.. I read through Jim Selby's blog at CC, and all the info at Memoria Press and I just fall back in love with it all over again. ;-)

Edited July 24, 2011 by SaDonna