Hit a wall with MUS multi-digit multiplication - can we just move on.

[Shellydon]

We've done MUS all the way through and have really liked it. In April, we started the multi-digit multiplication (131 x25 or 432 x 657) and my daughter simply cannot master this. Cannot. We've been working on it for 4 full months. I printed off Math Mammoth sheets to show her a different way to do the problem, and while she is much more successful with the 'easy' method of Math Mammoth, she is no where near mastery.

I don't know what to do at this point. Can we just move on to MUS Delta?

[ChrissySC]

I too hit a wall with mulitplication. As a matter of fact, we spent 2 months on multiplication with Saxon and Math Mammoth chapter for grade 4.

 

We did not cover enough geometry, division or fractions, but I am not sorry that we stopped. I made the choice to master. I am glad that we did. She is actually using multiplication IRl now. She told me how tea bags in each box would make a certain number of gallons of tea. She continued to explain how many boxes were in the pantry, and she stated I should not run out anytime soon. She even calculated how many gallons we consume in a month, LOL. While quite irrelevant, I found the application quite impressive. She did do all the math in her head too!

 

Go for mastery.

[Shellydon]

She has mastered basic multiplication, I am talking about doing 1245 x 3457. We have spent 4 months doing double digits, I can see it taking a full year to master the last few chapters of Gamma. Not sure that it is worth it when she'll use a calculator for the rest of her life:tongue_smilie:

[all4ramseys@msn.com]

We are long time MUS users here and my suggestion is to take a break. Just stop for a few weeks. Work on something else or nothing at all. Sometimes the brain just needs time to absorb a concept, not more practice. Come back to it with a fresh attitude and she may pick it right up.

 

This has worked for us many times.

 

HTH,

Holly

[ChrissySC]

That is a misconception - using a calculator - you have to understand it or you miss key solving skills.

 

Are you talking about a two- or three-digit multiplier or a four-digit multiplier? What is her age?

 

I would say a two-digit multiplier mastery for the fourth grade, perhaps even a three-digit. I would tackle the latter before more extensive division.

 

Do not skip! Do not rely on a calculator! :D We are teaching key skills that are not just related to finding the answer.

[MyLittleBears]

MUS levels assume that you have mastered the previous' years level and moves on from there. It does not do much reveiw of the previous year. If she does not have her multiplication facts down, she will struggle with Delt (division). If she does not understand the process you could let her do the problems with the blocks, but I would definately work on getting the fact down to the point of instant recall by using flashcards.

 

hth!

[Shellydon]

That is a misconception - using a calculator - you have to understand it or you miss key solving skills.

 

Are you talking about a two- or three-digit multiplier or a four-digit multiplier? What is her age?

Both. MUS does ALL multiplication before division. She is 8.

 

I would say a two-digit multiplier mastery for the fourth grade, perhaps even a three-digit. I would tackle the latter before more extensive division.

 

Do not skip! Do not rely on a calculator! :D We are teaching key skills that are not just related to finding the answer.

 

I understand the teaching skills part, but I am not sure how long to beat a dead horse:D

[Shellydon]

MUS levels assume that you have mastered the previous' years level and moves on from there. It does not do much reveiw of the previous year. If she does not have her multiplication facts down, she will struggle with Delt (division). If she does not understand the process you could let her do the problems with the blocks, but I would definately work on getting the fact down to the point of instant recall by using flashcards.

 

hth!

 

 

She has multiplication facts memorized, but cannot do the multi digit work. She has nearly mastered the two digit by two digit, but not the three digit by two digit or anything else more complex.

[Shellydon]

We are long time MUS users here and my suggestion is to take a break. Just stop for a few weeks. Work on something else or nothing at all. Sometimes the brain just needs time to absorb a concept, not more practice. Come back to it with a fresh attitude and she may pick it right up.

 

This has worked for us many times.

 

HTH,

Holly

 

 

We will be taking next week off for sure. I am just panicking at this point I think. We've never had any significant problems until now.

[Shellydon]

I've sent an email to MUS. Hopefully I'll get a quick response. Thanks!

[Roxy Roller]

We are long time MUS users here and my suggestion is to take a break. Just stop for a few weeks. Work on something else or nothing at all. Sometimes the brain just needs time to absorb a concept, not more practice. Come back to it with a fresh attitude and she may pick it right up.

 

This has worked for us many times.

 

HTH,

Holly

 

:iagree:We are long time users too. I find that sometimes my DC need time for assimilation. We take a total break, then pick it up again. Many times this is one week, or up to three weeks. (I have tried to use other programs like MM, Dad, or Grandpa, in the interim, to teach differently, but I have found that most of the time, my DC's minds just need the time to organize what they have learned into 'files' that they can access on demand later.) FYI, we usually hit a wall in Delta, once my DC hit multiple digit division. When it starts to get difficult, and my DC start getting really frustrated, we take the break.

 

Go for mastery, it will pay off in the end!

[Shellydon]

I just got off the phone with a MUS representative. They were nice enough to call. She said totally mastery is needed before moving on, or Delta would be more confusing. I am thinking at this point, I will be needing to switch to something else. Sigh.

[Donna T.]

I agree with everyone else. We have "hit a wall" about 3/4ths through Gamma and Delta. I have, at times, used other things to teach those concepts but we always go back to MUS because the kids really just need a break, not a whole new curriculum. Sometimes we have taken a week or two off from MUS but most of the time we just shorten each day's math time and thus slow the pace down. We then spend some time playing board games or something else math related. Now may be a good time for you and your daughter to pause and make a multiplication chart (if she has never done that before) or play with some math software or something like that.

 

We love MUS and the mastery approach but it can get tough. My sons do Gamma when they are 9. I think that has helped alot. I'm sure if they were 8 that we would have to take longer breaks when it gets hard.

[wapiti]

If the MM sheets were helping, perhaps get the MM topic book on multiplication, if you haven't already. MM does move on to the standard algorithm after the "easy" conceptual way. (There might also be a MM video on teaching this - check the website.) I'd keep at it until it's mastered, and then pick back up with MUS where you left off. (though there's nothing wrong with a little week's vacation from math - it is summer, after all!)

[Mommamia]

Just wanted to share that we are in the same place(and same wall) with MUS. We've tried Abeka, MM, TT, CLE....and always go back to MUS. I actually will use the other books now and then just to make sure they understand the concept (in a different style). FWIW, we are taking it verryyyy slow with Gamma.

 

Is it the way MUS teaches multi digit multiplication? Or, is it just a roadblock with the concetp?

 

BTW-I skip over the estimating part of the multiplication lesson. It just became too confusing for me and the kids.

[Shellydon]

I agree with everyone else. We have "hit a wall" about 3/4ths through Gamma and Delta. I have, at times, used other things to teach those concepts but we always go back to MUS because the kids really just need a break, not a whole new curriculum. Sometimes we have taken a week or two off from MUS but most of the time we just shorten each day's math time and thus slow the pace down. We then spend some time playing board games or something else math related. Now may be a good time for you and your daughter to pause and make a multiplication chart (if she has never done that before) or play with some math software or something like that.

 

We love MUS and the mastery approach but it can get tough. My sons do Gamma when they are 9. I think that has helped alot. I'm sure if they were 8 that we would have to take longer breaks when it gets hard.

Thank you!

 

If the MM sheets were helping, perhaps get the MM topic book on multiplication, if you haven't already. MM does move on to the standard algorithm after the "easy" conceptual way. (There might also be a MM video on teaching this - check the website.) I'd keep at it until it's mastered, and then pick back up with MUS where you left off. (though there's nothing wrong with a little week's vacation from math - it is summer, after all!)

I forgot about the MM videos, I'll have to check and see if there is one. Thanks!

 

Just wanted to share that we are in the same place(and same wall) with MUS. We've tried Abeka, MM, TT, CLE....and always go back to MUS. I actually will use the other books now and then just to make sure they understand the concept (in a different style). FWIW, we are taking it verryyyy slow with Gamma.

 

Is it the way MUS teaches multi digit multiplication? Or, is it just a roadblock with the concetp?

 

BTW-I skip over the estimating part of the multiplication lesson. It just became too confusing for me and the kids.

 

Both. The way MUS teaches is typical, but very difficult. My Ph.D engineer husband had actually never seen that method. He was taught the 'easy' way that Math Mammoth uses back in 1st grade, and has used it ever since. We are having more luck with the Math Mammoth method, but she is very confused from trying the MUS way first.

[wapiti]

I forgot about the MM videos, I'll have to check and see if there is one.

 

Try this one http://www.youtube.com/mathmammoth#p/u/28/dDQSzMEKfYs

 

also http://www.khanacademy.org/video/multiplying-whole-numbers-and-applications-2?playlist=Developmental%20Math

 

and http://www.khanacademy.org/video/multiplying-whole-numbers-and-applications-3?playlist=Developmental%20Math

Edited July 11, 2011 by wapiti

[Shellydon]

Try this one http://www.youtube.com/mathmammoth#p/u/28/dDQSzMEKfYs

 

also http://www.khanacademy.org/video/multiplying-whole-numbers-and-applications-2?playlist=Developmental%20Math

 

and http://www.khanacademy.org/video/multiplying-whole-numbers-and-applications-3?playlist=Developmental%20Math

 

 

Thank you!!

[SewLittleTime]

Ds1 hit a wall in the same place. It was the place values that keep him from getting it. Graphing paper helped him tremendously in putting each number in its own box. Only then could he could line up the numbers properly. We also did problems out on our back porch in sidewalk chalk. Something about being in the problem helped him finally get it. But it.took.forever. FWIW, we hit another wall with multiplication in Delta when upside-down multiplication was introduced. But that one was much easier to work through--just a few days.

 

I also went back and retaught ds how to do multiplication the traditional way that I learned it. He now prefers Mr. Demme's method. It just makes sense in the way his brain sees math.

 

I'd take a while off and just come back to it. Play some games and have some fun for a while..

[DawnL]

Both. The way MUS teaches is typical, but very difficult. My Ph.D engineer husband had actually never seen that method. He was taught the 'easy' way that Math Mammoth uses back in 1st grade, and has used it ever since. We are having more luck with the Math Mammoth method, but she is very confused from trying the MUS way first.

 

My dd was in public school for 3rd grade and did not finish knowing multiple digit multiplication well at all. I didn't realize how bag it was until we hit a wall in Delta, with division. We had to get Gamma, go back, and master that concept. It was hard for her, but she did master it. I'm so glad she did!

 

I agree that place value was the most difficult thing for her to keep track of. She elected to put zeros in every place to help her keep track. The blocks were what really helped her. She hadn't used the blocks before and felt she was too old for them. I insisted she not only build numbers with the blocks, but also build problems. When she was finally able to come up with an answer for a problem like 12x13 using only the blocks, I knew she was finally getting it. Then when she moved to 3-digit x 3-digit, etc, she had the concept down and used the zeros to help her keep her places straight.

 

I also agree she may need a short break. No matter our age, sometimes our brain is just fried. It's like a sponge. It can handle only so much water at once. Anything more and it just floats away.

[Shellydon]

Ds1 hit a wall in the same place. It was the place values that keep him from getting it. Graphing paper helped him tremendously in putting each number in its own box. Only then could he could line up the numbers properly. We also did problems out on our back porch in sidewalk chalk. Something about being in the problem helped him finally get it. But it.took.forever. FWIW, we hit another wall with multiplication in Delta when upside-down multiplication was introduced. But that one was much easier to work through--just a few days.

 

I also went back and retaught ds how to do multiplication the traditional way that I learned it. He now prefers Mr. Demme's method. It just makes sense in the way his brain sees math.

 

I'd take a while off and just come back to it. Play some games and have some fun for a while..

 

My dd was in public school for 3rd grade and did not finish knowing multiple digit multiplication well at all. I didn't realize how bag it was until we hit a wall in Delta, with division. We had to get Gamma, go back, and master that concept. It was hard for her, but she did master it. I'm so glad she did!

 

I agree that place value was the most difficult thing for her to keep track of. She elected to put zeros in every place to help her keep track. The blocks were what really helped her. She hadn't used the blocks before and felt she was too old for them. I insisted she not only build numbers with the blocks, but also build problems. When she was finally able to come up with an answer for a problem like 12x13 using only the blocks, I knew she was finally getting it. Then when she moved to 3-digit x 3-digit, etc, she had the concept down and used the zeros to help her keep her places straight.

 

I also agree she may need a short break. No matter our age, sometimes our brain is just fried. It's like a sponge. It can handle only so much water at once. Anything more and it just floats away.

 

Thank you both!