S/O Amazon...Military and GEDs

[kchara]

OK, I don't agree with forcing a kid to get a GED to get a job... and I will boycott Amazon if that is the case, but... for the ENLISTED side at least, I've seen this multiple times in the past few days and it's just not true. It might be as far as getting into the Academies and such, but a GED vs. HS diploma has absolutely no bearing on your paygrade, and, past MEPS and the recruiting station, isn't even looked at in your evaluations and promotions. There are certain MOS's that "require" a HS diploma, but those are waiverable, which means that after a bunch of ridiculous paperwork, you probably will still get that MOS if your really want it.

 

So says my DH, who worked retention and recruiting, and now works in a schoolhouse for NG medics, and that's always been my experience, as well. It's not like your NCOIC is demanding to see your diploma or even looking up paperwork that far back during your evals.

 

I don't like the idea of GEDs, or forcing homeschoolers to get one, but I would hate to have anyone forgo what could be a wonderful military career because of their GED, and being afraid of advancement. It just doesn't happen that way.

 

OK :rant: Back to your regularly scheduled programming. :D

[Mrs Mungo]

It *is* a discriminator. Currently recruiting and retention are way up due to the state of the economy. Meanwhile, the military is scaling back. That means they are giving fewer waivers and generally being more picky.

 

Also, the military has a cap on the number of high school dropouts (which *includes* holders of GEDs) for each year. For example, the AF allows less than 1% of enlistees to be dropouts. For the Army it is typically less than 10% (but again, they are *currently* being more picky).

 

What you say has been true in the past. It is not necessarily currently true. Currently, you might not be able to even enter the military, never mind in the job you want.

 

On the other hand, if you have at least 15 hours of college credit, then it's not an issue.

[kchara]

I guess I'm thinking more of once you get in, although I know waivers to get MOS's are being cracked down on. DH had to change his, and it was a real pain in the tail. But once your in, it's not going to affect your paygrade or anything like that. Once you have your MOS, that's not something they look at again. If there's a problem getting in, then that's a serious problem that needs addressed, perhaps by starting a grassroots movement of some sort?

[Mrs Mungo]

I guess I'm thinking more of once you get in, although I know waivers to get MOS's are being cracked down on. DH had to change his, and it was a real pain in the tail. But once your in, it's not going to affect your paygrade or anything like that. Once you have your MOS, that's not something they look at again. If there's a problem getting in, then that's a serious problem that needs addressed, perhaps by starting a grassroots movement of some sort?

 

I agree that it's generally not a problem once you are in and assigned to an MOS. But it is a problem as far as getting in and getting into the MOS you want. Homeschoolers have already fought this fight and are no longer being categorized as dropouts. But, it is a problem if they take the GED.

[kchara]

I agree that it's generally not a problem once you are in and assigned to an MOS. But it is a problem as far as getting in and getting into the MOS you want. Homeschoolers have already fought this fight and are no longer being categorized as dropouts. But, it is a problem if they take the GED.

 

Another reason not to get a GED. ;)

 

I do think, though, that's a problem that needs addressed by the military. It's hard as anything to get in at the moment, but they're shooting themselves in the foot by not allowing GEDs, especially considering how many non-dropouts are getting them nowadays.

[merry gardens]

It *is* a discriminator. Currently recruiting and retention are way up due to the state of the economy. Meanwhile, the military is scaling back. That means they are giving fewer waivers and generally being more picky.

 

Also, the military has a cap on the number of high school dropouts (which *includes* holders of GEDs) for each year. For example, the AF allows less than 1% of enlistees to be dropouts. For the Army it is typically less than 10% (but again, they are *currently* being more picky).

 

What you say has been true in the past. It is not necessarily currently true. Currently, you might not be able to even enter the military, never mind in the job you want.

 

On the other hand, if you have at least 15 hours of college credit, then it's not an issue.

Could you explain that further? How does the 15 hours of college credit affect the way the military views waivers, GEDs, etc?

[In The Great White North]

It might be as far as getting into the Academies and such,

 

A GED is not required for the Academies.

[Mrs Mungo]

Could you explain that further? How does the 15 hours of college credit affect the way the military views waivers, GEDs, etc?

 

Because if you have 15 hours of college classes, your diploma/GED are not relevant. You are classed with the other people with college credit.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Another reason not to get a GED. ;)

 

I do think, though, that's a problem that needs addressed by the military. It's hard as anything to get in at the moment, but they're shooting themselves in the foot by not allowing GEDs, especially considering how many non-dropouts are getting them nowadays.

 

Well, the studies that they have done indicate a correlation between GEDs and less successful completion of initial training and first enlistment. They aren't making categories because they are mean or ignorant. They are trying to categorize applicants into groups that are more or likely, on average, to suceed - in the military.

 

There are always exceptions to a generality. Homeschooling might not be like dropping out of school. On the other hand, as homeschooling becomes more mainstream, you will increase the number of students who are average (rather than academic or motivational exemplars).

 

If the military thought that breaking out homeschoolers was going to be a shortcut to identifying outstanding potential servicemembers, it would have done so. But the actual results have been murkier than that (and not in the favor of the average homeschooled enlistee).

 

I'll look for the study.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This is the analysis of the study of homeschooled enlistees that ended in 2004. The executive summary is on page 5 of the .pdf.

 

The back of the envelope version is that non-standard graduates (both GED and homeschooled) had higher rates of attrition (ie, left the military early). However homeschoolers with above average ASVABs did well (but had a spike in attrition at the 2 year and 3 year point).

 

As is typical with the military, they continue to study the subject. There is another study going on, which seems in the Army to include homeschoolers (who can verify a few things) in the enlistment bonuses that high school grads get. The study runs for a few more months.

 

I don't post this to suggest that any particular homeschooler will do poorly in the military. If I thought that homeschooling was substandard, I wouldn't be doing it. As a Naval Academy grad and Navy wife, I'm hoping to prepare my sons to pursue a career in the military - if that is where their hearts take them.

 

But I think the study results are important to show that the military isn't just being capricious in how they group homeschoolers. They are trying to base recruiting decisions on the actual results they have with actual homeschoolers who actually enlisted. (IE, not just the cream of the crop who are weighing various elite colleges, but the folks who have an interest and aptitude for the military.)

 

Given the low percentage of the 17-25 year old demographic that is eligible to be considered for the military (not ruled out by criminal actions, obesity, drug use - illegal and prescription, or other medical grounds), they aren't going to just rule out another whole category. But they are going to look closely to see if a candidate is likely to suceed and be worth the training expense.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Sebastian (a lady)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

A GED is not required for the Academies.

 

No, it's not. I've never even heard it suggested for someone applying to USNA.

 

In fact, a friend who applied this cycle was told that his package would be more favorably considered as a straight homeschool package than coming in as a transcript from a popular umbrella school. (YMMV)

 

It is important to give an academy enough to measure an application against other candidates. That can include AP, SAT/ACT, SAT II, special programs in the community, sports, or dual enrollment. But there has to be something for them to look at and determine that this is a great candidate.

[Pretty in Pink]

In practice, the fact is that some recruiting districts are more friendly towards homeschoolers than others, regardless of what the regulations actually state regarding homeschool applicants. A lot of recruiters and their supervisors are misinformed about the laws regarding homeschool applicants, and they pass this misinformation along to applicants and their families. While on recruiting duty, my husband had to do the legwork and sort of prove to his chain of command that homeschoolers did not have to obtain a GED or complete 15 hours of college credit in order to be admitted into the service. He would arm homeschool applicants with copies of pertinent regulations before they came into the office to apply so that they would know where they legally stood.

 

Military rules regarding GEDs and homeschoolers aren't about discrimination, they are about retention. The military isn't trying to shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak, they have studies detailing attrition rates for the various types of enlistees.

 

IIRC, homeschoolers do require a waiver of some sort to get in (I know that GEDs require a waiver as well). Each branch of service (and this trickles down to individual recruiting districts and stations) are only allowed a certain percentage of waivers per year, quarter, and month.

 

It's true that your homeschool status does not matter once you get to boot camp, but Mrs. Mungo is also correct in that the military is currently being pickier about who they let in. By recruiting fewer applicants overall they are granting fewer waivers, which translates to fewer GEDs (and I believe homeschoolers) being admitted.

 

ETA: If anyone is still reading this, I wanted to qualify my statement by saying that homeschool and GED waivers are different waivers. I saw that another poster mentioned this as well. Last I knew, GED applicants were required to complete 15 hours of college credits to obtain their waiver. Maybe I'm remembering that wrong? Homeschool applicants are not required to earn college credits for their waiver. It is a different waiver. Still, each station and such is only allowed a certain number of waivers per term, regardless.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Pretty in Pink

[tntgoodwin]

Because if you have 15 hours of college classes, your diploma/GED are not relevant. You are classed with the other people with college credit.

 

Yep, that's what I did. I made my own high school diploma on the computer! But, I had 16 college credits or so, and it wasn't an issue at all when I enlisted.

[TxMama]

This is the analysis of the study of homeschooled enlistees that ended in 2004. The executive summary is on page 5 of the .pdf.

 

 

 

It is important to note that the process of being declared a "homeschooler" was different then. I believe anyone who declared themself as a homeschooler was part of this study.

 

So if a dropout checked the homeschool box....they were considered a homeschooler even though no actual schooling occured in the home.

 

The process for a homeschool grad to get a waiver to be tier 1 is different now. If you get a GED you will have to have 15 college credit hours so don't get a GED and expect to get in via a homeschool waiver. The same for virtual schools. My son joined the Navy via the homeschool waiver. I had to talk to an Educational Specialist about our homeschool program, my son had to score at least a 50 on the ASVAB and he had to take the AIMS test.

 

I suspect the study would be different now that they are a bit more selective about how they determine if someone was actually homeschooled.

 

My son at no point felt that he was being discriminated against during this process.

 

 

I think that homeschoolers need to make themselves look attractive to get a recruiter to go through this process for them. My son talked to the Coast Guard and they would not return his calls once they found out he was homeschooled. The Coast Guard in our region is only recruiting people who have earned Associates degrees.

 

The deciding factor for our recruiter to try to work on a homeschool waiver was the fact that my son was an Eagle Scout. The Educational Specialist told me that one thing he was trying to determine if my son could function well in a traditional school setting.

 

I wish we had Pretty in Pink's dh as our recruiter. We had to figure out the process as we went!

[FaithManor]

I can't speak for other areas of the military, but the Michigan Coast Guard is being VERY picky right now. I know a young man trying to get in....definitely an associates appears to be the minimum. So he's going to just go ahead and get his bachelor's and then re-apply. He is a public school boy with a 3.9 gpa and lots of AP's. They don't have high recruitment goals and so there are far more candidates for the job. Of course, this is in a state with high unemployment so a lot of high school grads and twenty-somethings are thinking military.

 

The job market in all areas is tight and that includes the military. There's tremendous competition right now and we are probably all well-advised to do a lot of research before we graduate our children.

 

Faith

[Pretty in Pink]

I can't speak for other areas of the military, but the Michigan Coast Guard is being VERY picky right now. I know a young man trying to get in....definitely an associates appears to be the minimum. So he's going to just go ahead and get his bachelor's and then re-apply. He is a public school boy with a 3.9 gpa and lots of AP's. They don't have high recruitment goals and so there are far more candidates for the job. Of course, this is in a state with high unemployment so a lot of high school grads and twenty-somethings are thinking military.

 

The job market in all areas is tight and that includes the military. There's tremendous competition right now and we are probably all well-advised to do a lot of research before we graduate our children.

 

Faith

 

I have a girlfriend whose (who's?) dh served 8 years in the Marine Corps before getting out. He knew that he wanted to transfer to the Coast Guard, but the process was long. He wound up being a civilian for nearly two years before the Coast Guard finally accepted him!

[TxMama]

There is another study going on, which seems in the Army to include homeschoolers (who can verify a few things) in the enlistment bonuses that high school grads get. The study runs for a few more months.

 

.

 

This is what my son had to do to get a homeschool waiver for the Navy.

 

My first conversation with the Educational Specialist covered all the questions in the first requirement. Specifically, he asked me 20 questions. How many hours a day did he do school work? What resources did you use to teach x? Who issued this diploma? etc.

 

Hopefully this study will be a little bit more favorable for homschool grads than the previous one.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This is what my son had to do to get a homeschool waiver for the Navy.

 

My first conversation with the Educational Specialist covered all the questions in the first requirement. Specifically, he asked me 20 questions. How many hours a day did he do school work? What resources did you use to teach x? Who issued this diploma? etc.

 

Hopefully this study will be a little bit more favorable for homschool grads than the previous one.

 

I'm not sure that it will be. I'm a bit pessimistic because I wonder what the effect of homeschooling being a more mainstream option will be. I'm not sure how to word this without sounding elitist, so bear with me. As more people homeschool, I think there is less pressure to out perform all of the other educational options. (And while I continue to be amazed at what I see homeschoolers accomplishing, I also keep running into families who make me scratch my head.)

 

I also wonder if the do it yourself nature of homeschooling is conducive to fostering the sort of attitudes that thrive in the early years of a military career, where out of the box thinking isn't always rewarded. When I think of the families who couldn't follow through on attending a field trip without flaking out at the last minute, I wonder if some homeschoolers are fostering the type of thinking that make a young enlistee decide to quit. (Having said that, I do have to say that I had plenty of non-performers who reported to me and none of them were homeschooled.)

 

I don't know that we'll ever know to what extent drop outs were encouraged to mark themselves as homeschoolers. There were certainly some recruiters around the era of the study who got in trouble for this. I'm not sure how big of an impact it would have had on the study. It will be interesting to see what the results of the new study are.

 

I think a couple earlier posts hit the nail on the head. Right now the military can be selective. In many cases just a high school degree won't get you what you want. In dh's community, the OCS spots are going not to just any college grad, but to folks with masters' degrees and language fluency. And they can still pick and choose who they want.

 

Many of the enlisted guys who worked for me (and this was well over a decade ago) had a year or more of college before entering the service. It really isn't about meeting minimums, but about knocking it out of the park.