Do you think that there is a way to logically come to conclusions about morality?

[Aubrey]

So what you are asking is not whether we can derive a single unambiguous moral code that applies to all. Rather you seem to be asking if there is a way one can be sure the path one has chosen is moral? But if you agree that there are many moral paths that can be chosen, why should you obsess about it? I apologize for asking so many questions, but I do not think I truly understand what exactly it is that is puzzling you.

 

It's ok--it's a strange question & hard to word in such a way that it's clear & I don't take all the bandwidth.

 

For ex: Paul says it's best to be single. But then he says it's better to marry than to burn. :tongue_smilie: Gross! I don't want to be classified as married-because-she-was-too-!!!-to-handle-the-call-to-be-single.

 

But when I was a teen & wondering about this, married people defended marriage--they said that was the holier call. Single people defended singleness for the same reason. It made me crazy because they were both just defending their own choices, not answering a perplexing passage in scripture.

 

Eventually, I learned several things. First, that Hebrew tradition required men to be married to be priests & that they considered single men not fully men. In light of that, when you go back & read Paul's statements, he says something to the effect of, "With regard to..." implying that he's *answering* a QUESTION.

 

Now...why would a group of converted Jews ask Paul's opinions on marriage when they already have a strong tradition that states, at *least,* that marriage is good?

 

We can't know for certain what they asked or why, but suddenly, the context seems shifted to me. They seem to be trying to question not marriage but Paul's authority as a single "priest."

 

So Paul says to them, IF you need ME to tell you what to do...don't marry. Why? Partly, he's giving the same kind of shocking answer that Jesus would give to the self-righteous who tried to condemn him. Partly, if you're going to follow a man's advice INSTEAD of God's call on your individual life, it's better to do the thing that can be reversed: stay single. Don't mess other people up by marrying & having children if you don't even know if that's your call.

 

Based on that understanding, I have concluded that my call (to marry) is not less than another's call to remain single. As long as we're both following God, it's all good. That's kind-of how I felt before, but it helps me to understand the verses better. And now I'm the married person who will defend marriage and singleness.

 

Wrt other things--bc, submission, etc. Some of them may be an issue of better understanding verses in order to better understand our freedom. Otoh, there are some issues that I might feel have basically one right answer. Since these are not CLEAR cut issues in the Bible, even if I felt strongly about them, I'd assume that there was grace. I'd acknowledge that I could be wrong. I'd do the best I could *in humility.*

 

I tend to think bc is wrong. I tend to think chemical bc is very wrong. But IF that's the case (because *I* could be wrong), I only know it because the Lord has shown me. The Bible does not clearly state it. When I first suggested the possibility that it was at least questionable (to my family, years before marriage), they all looked at me like I was crazy. It had never occurred to them.

 

If that's the case--someone hasn't thought about it or hasn't questioned the morality of it or has peace about it AND it's not clearly outlined in the Bible--who am I to draw my convictions around someone else's life? So the strongest statement I'd ever make--if I were sure--is that *I* don't use it. That I feel like God has led me not to use it, perhaps. Anything stronger than that could be condemning, & there are simply too many possibilities of circumstances to possibly judge someone else's choices, even if I come to a particular conclusion about it.

 

I've framed the question the way that I have in this thread for several reasons. I don't want others to feel condemned by the question *at all.* I also want more than a single verse or a particular church's teaching to convince me.

 

I realize that with more of a syllogistic approach my conclusions could still be wrong, therefore humility in all things. BUT that particular approach is one I am comfortable with. I feel like it is intellectually honest & removes moral decisions from simply being reflections of what I am willing to do or not do on the one hand OR legalistic attempts to please God by sacrificing things he never asked for on the other.

 

I have realized that what I would choose for myself is not always what God would choose. I have also realized that what he chooses is *good.* Not just hard stuff to try to grow my character, kwim? When I have been unhappy in my marriage, it's always been because I was seeing dh w/ my eyes instead of God's. That's easy to fix. Otoh, the things *I* would have chosen on my own (such as the guy I dated before dh) I can see so clearly now do not fit at all w/ who I am or want to be. They weren't immoral choices or *bad* choices (although I've had those, too)--they just weren't God's call. They weren't best.

 

As long as I can see a choice, I want to *try* to choose God's way. Regret is something I've watched everyone in my family live with, from the time I was very little. I don't want to live with regret any more than I have to.

[Aubrey]

IMO, if you aren't sure about whether it would be a good thing to have another child, then the obvious answer is DON'T DO IT.

 

No, no--it's broader than that. A single child? I wouldn't *plan* one in our circumstances, but I wouldn't consider it a crisis if we were pregnant. Not ideal (for the child), but a blessing.

 

My question is broader--bc in general. In principle. In theory.

 

I've always been ok w/ adding one kid. (Esp up to now--we wanted at least 4.) One isn't mind-bending. The thought of giving up bc & having 10 or 20 is mind-bending. *That* I'm not sure is good for anybody. But what do I know?

 

Otoh, I see abortion as b&w. Clear cut. Bc is different from abortion--before anyone gets upset--but where is the line? I'd rather err on the side of not hurting my child--even if it turns out that bc doesn't "hurt" anybody. Since I'm not sure, I won't do it. (Chemical bc)

 

If that were the only thing available, the question would be simpler. (Still not easy, as society is uncomfortable w/ big families & we don't have $$.)

 

Just to clarify--I don't want anyone thinking that I'd purposely have a baby I didn't want, wouldn't love, OR that if my puny methods of bc now resulted in a surprise that I wouldn't love that new baby & be happy w/ it.

 

Honestly, I'm wondering more about permanent approaches. We seem to be in that range of having as many as we want w/out being overwhelmed--a time when life could go either way--have too few, have too many, have just the right amt.

 

And if we conclude that bc is wrong, that permanent methods are not ok, then we'll adjust our thinking. We'll be happy w/ what God gives us. :001_smile:

[Aubrey]

I could be completely off base here, but I think I understand what you're saying, and if I do then :iagree:

 

Not everyone is meant to be a missionary to a foreign land. That does not make it immoral not to be a missionary, it does not make it immoral to be a missionary. It depends on what God calls you to do. Is God calling you to have more children? If He is and you're hoping to use bc to avoid it... :lol: well, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that all the bc in the world isn't going to get in His way ;)

 

This is what I said to my mom before getting married. So I was happy to use bc to appease people, but figured God would have control.

 

Unfortunately, then I thought about Jonah & other Bible stories. God has the *power* to overcome our choices, but he doesn't always choose to do so. He wants us to cooperate w/ his plan, offer ourselves to him, etc.

 

So...I've realized that there might be more choosing than I'd like, lol.

[secular_mom]

I understand the 'fear' (not sure if that's the right term for you, I know it is for me) of living with regret. For me, it can be paralyzing. I make too many decisions based on the regret factor, and it sometimes takes the joy out of the moment for me- too busy planning and stressing over the plan wanting to make sure I've made The Right Plan that will result in zero regret for all people involved, or at least as close to zero regret for all as possible. The thing is, we can't know the future, we can't possibly know EVERY thing there is to know, especially not as individuals or even couples. I always overthink things, I admit it. Lots of times that overthinking results in me NOT doing anything because I can't decide what the 'right' thing TO do is.

 

Really, you aren't supposed to know God's mind, are you? If God has a plan for you, doesn't he steer you and guide you and adjust things so that your actions fit within His plan no matter what you do? There are so many people who take 'permanent' measures to prevent conception that end up having more than one more child after that surgery. Maybe their precautions caused things to be delayed a bit, but ultimately did not prevent conception after all. If God is all powerful and all knowing and has a Plan for each person, then there is NO way that each person can do anything that's not within His Plan. KWIM?

[secular_mom]

If God is all knowing, how can he have a Plan that ends up not being followed? Why would He 'Plan' something that He already Knows won't happen? Wouldn't that be akin to me 'planning' for a rock I throw to stay in the air even though I 'know' it will fall to the ground?

[Aubrey]

I understand the 'fear' (not sure if that's the right term for you, I know it is for me) of living with regret. For me, it can be paralyzing. I make too many decisions based on the regret factor, and it sometimes takes the joy out of the moment for me- too busy planning and stressing over the plan wanting to make sure I've made The Right Plan that will result in zero regret for all people involved, or at least as close to zero regret for all as possible. The thing is, we can't know the future, we can't possibly know EVERY thing there is to know, especially not as individuals or even couples. I always overthink things, I admit it. Lots of times that overthinking results in me NOT doing anything because I can't decide what the 'right' thing TO do is.

 

For me, thinking about regret usually simplifies things. I angst over right & wrong & "feelings," but when my grandfather (dad's dad--never close) died, I had real regret about that relationship. That hasn't happened again.

 

Really, you aren't supposed to know God's mind, are you? If God has a plan for you, doesn't he steer you and guide you and adjust things so that your actions fit within His plan no matter what you do? There are so many people who take 'permanent' measures to prevent conception that end up having more than one more child after that surgery. Maybe their precautions caused things to be delayed a bit, but ultimately did not prevent conception after all. If God is all powerful and all knowing and has a Plan for each person, then there is NO way that each person can do anything that's not within His Plan. KWIM?

 

As far as God's power goes...it's hard to say. I think he chooses to limit it. Because there is sin in the world, & I know that's not his will. I have seen lives cut short by drunk drivers and suicide, & while some believe God had to "allow" these things, I think that's underestimating the power of sin.

 

We can follow God. We can *not* follow God. He can prevent disaster, but sin can cause it, outside of his will. (These are statements descriptive of my belief; no one has to agree w/ me at all. In fact, it's rare that anyone does!) :001_smile:

[Free]

No, no--it's broader than that. A single child? I wouldn't *plan* one in our circumstances, but I wouldn't consider it a crisis if we were pregnant. Not ideal (for the child), but a blessing.

 

My question is broader--bc in general. In principle. In theory.

 

And if we conclude that bc is wrong, that permanent methods are not ok, then we'll adjust our thinking. We'll be happy w/ what God gives us. :001_smile:

 

Aubrey, I am not Christian and I am an Indian. Therefore pardon me if what I say is offensive. But here, not using BC is considered *WRONG*, very wrong. I have many wonderful and devout Christian and Muslim friends all of whom have limited their family sizes to one or two children. I do not know if they have struggled with this being unbiblical/ unislamic. I never really thought of asking. That is what we all do here (or at least the educated ones) - we consider limiting our family sizes a duty to our country.

 

I know this is not helpful to you as this is neither from a Christian perspective nor from a relevant cultural context. But I just wanted to share a different perspective where BC happens to be the only moral choice for us.

[Aubrey]

Aubrey, I am not Christian and I am an Indian. Therefore pardon me if what I say is offensive. But here, not using BC is considered *WRONG*, very wrong. I have many wonderful and devout Christian and Muslim friends all of whom have limited their family sizes to one or two children. I do not know if they have struggled with this being unbiblical/ unislamic. I never really thought of asking. That is what we all do here (or at least the educated ones) - we consider limiting our family sizes a duty to our country.

 

I know this is not helpful to you as this is neither from a Christian perspective nor from a relevant cultural context. But I just wanted to share a different perspective where BC happens to be the only moral choice for us.

 

Honestly...I wouldn't say that's FAR from the reasoning here, among both Christians and non-Christians. Imagine how much harder that makes it to have a different conviction.

 

Sometimes I want to be Catholic, to at least have a group to hide among. But then I find out that some of them believe in limiting family size as a duty, too, although they may use different methods of achieving that.

 

And of course, I'm not sure what I believe, other than that we should think about it. Think *hard* about it. I know some people who do. I know more who do not.

 

The idea, though, of being forced (by gov't or culture) to limit one's family size breaks my heart in a way that is unspeakable.

[Carol in Cal.]

Aubrey, I am not Christian and I am an Indian. Therefore pardon me if what I say is offensive. But here, not using BC is considered *WRONG*, very wrong. I have many wonderful and devout Christian and Muslim friends all of whom have limited their family sizes to one or two children. I do not know if they have struggled with this being unbiblical/ unislamic. I never really thought of asking. That is what we all do here (or at least the educated ones) - we consider limiting our family sizes a duty to our country.

 

I know this is not helpful to you as this is neither from a Christian perspective nor from a relevant cultural context. But I just wanted to share a different perspective where BC happens to be the only moral choice for us.

 

I have known a lot of very devout Christians with this same point of view. They regard it as part of stewardship of the earth not to overpopulate it. In fact, when I was growing up, that view was actively taught among a lot of Lutherans and protestants. I remember seeing a film by a pretty conservative Christian speaker, about male/female relationships, and he said that yes, God had told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, but that that doesn't apply anymore. "I have news for you: The earth HAS BEEN REPLENISHED!" he said. This was in the 70's, but the idea had been around for at least 15 years by then.

 

Also, there was a very common belief that you shouldn't have children until you were sure that you could afford them.

 

The only real exception to this that was obvious in popular culture was Catholics and Mormons, and many of the Catholics that I knew openly said that they used birth control.

[Free]

The idea, though, of being forced (by gov't or culture) to limit one's family size breaks my heart in a way that is unspeakable.

 

By the same token, one must not feel forced (by culture, govt or religion) to not limit one's family size either.

 

In India, Govt does not regulate family sizes, but there is a social stigma attached to large families. If somebody wanted strongly to have a large family, then I suppose they would irrespective of what people thought of them.

 

Honestly though I have never come across anyone among my family or friends who has expressed a desire for a large family or who has felt "forced" to limit their family size. Maybe it is because culturally we consider a small family to be healthy, happy and desirable?

[lionfamily1999]

This is what I said to my mom before getting married. So I was happy to use bc to appease people, but figured God would have control.

 

Unfortunately, then I thought about Jonah & other Bible stories. God has the *power* to overcome our choices, but he doesn't always choose to do so. He wants us to cooperate w/ his plan, offer ourselves to him, etc.

 

So...I've realized that there might be more choosing than I'd like, lol.

 

To abandon the bearing of children seems to be a violation of God’s creation mandate for us, but to exercise wisdom in the timing and manner of childbearing seems in accord with our other responsibilities to fulfill our equally important duty to work in God’s world. Neither is to be set aside.

The rest of the article is here. It gives different view points and seems, imo, to allow the reader to decide who is right.

 

Hth!