ToG or MFW for multiple grades

[ange]

Just wondering which would work best for my "spread" of ages/ grades next year, which will be 6 yo k/1st, 8 yo 2nd, 11 yo 6th (13 yo 7th will be in another program). I could see perhaps combining the younger two in MFW, but not seeing how it would work to have the younger ones and the 11 yo in MFW together in the same program.

 

That lead me to ToG, which seems better suited to cover all "stages" no matter what year you are in. What I can't figure out is what is the difference between ToG and MFW...is it the books, the TM, the method, the worldview, the missionary focus (or lack of)? They seem so similar from all I have looked at, what makes them different would really help me decide.

 

That all said, I plan to focus on the basics of phonics/reading/writing and math with the youngers - and include them in the history as they show interest and at a level they can participate and have fun. I want my choice for history/ literature based on what will challenge and interest my 6th grader. So far she has had history through the Middle Ages (and that was last year, we dropped the ball on history this year).

 

Thanks for any advice or opinions you can share!

[SnMomof7]

Hi Angie,

 

I haven't used either TOG or MFW, but have researched them both. Until a more experienced board member drops by, maybe I can help?

 

Something to think about for MFW is that it has separate programs for K/1st, children younger than 2nd aren;t folded into the main program. TOG co-ordinates all age groups within one teaching plan. MFW is more open and go and includes science. TOG requires more planning and has a bit more focus on the great books, primary sources, philosophy, and socratic discussions in the higher levels.

 

Personally, with your age group I'd lean more TOG. You can keep it light with their picture book suggestions for LG, and dig in deeper with your older dc (your oldest might be ready for the D level work) without having to switch between multiple topics.

[Renaissance Mom]

I've never used MFW but have used TOG for 5 yrs (and counting). My kids are now in 7th, 2nd, and 1st. My oldest is challenged and delighted by TOG -- and I love the dialectic level discussions (and the included discussion guides).

 

My younger two thoroughly enjoy the TOG elements we add to their math and LA. Much of their imagination play comes from whatever we are doing in history.

 

HTH!

[Donna A.]

Hi Angie,

Until a more experienced board member drops by, maybe I can hel

 

:seeya:

 

 

Something to think about for MFW is that it has separate programs for K/1st, children younger than 2nd aren;t folded into the main program.

 

Actually this isn't true. If your oldest child is beyond the learn-to-read-stage, then yes, it IS recommended that younger ones be folded in. Every level of MFW from Adventures (2nd gr.) and up has books, activities, and assignments for varying ages. Sometimes those are labeled "Advanced" for older ones; sometimes it's up to mom to discern which child can do what; and sometimes the assignments for older kids (in ECC) or younger kids (in EX1850 and 1850MOD) are separated out on the right-hand page. Sometimes a younger one can do more than we assume; sometimes an older one with LD's needs to work at a younger level. So MFW is set up for that built-in flexibility and adjustments where needed. All assignments are together on the same weekly grid (with teacher notes following), except as noted in the three years I mentioned, but mom should be able to know at what level her kids are working. If you're new to this type of learning or lesson plan layout, there will of course be a learning curve at the beginning, but from then on it's very efficient IMO. They usually schedule a lighter week in the first week or two to give time to acclimate to the new year/schedule.

 

Book Basket at the back of the TM is where you find an extensive booklist (usually around 400 titles, including videos) from which to choose for each of your children. This list is laid out by week # and topic so it's easy to find what you're looking for ahead of time. Marie has asterisked some titles that she recommends for purchase if you don't have a good library option. Some folks like to buy their extra books to have in their home library in lieu of using Book Basket on an ongoing basis. But this list is comprised of every literature genre and reading level, so lots to choose from. Marie has pre-read every single title on there and made notes for potential content concerns, age-appropriateness, etc. I've found this helpful when picking from the list to order from the library.

 

Anyway, back to the learn-to-read stage... MFW K and 1st are focused around phonics and Bible, with science, extra reading, and math included. If you have a child in this stage with an older sibling doing another year of MFW, you would fold this child in with his sibling(s), but you can choose to either do your own separate phonics and math with the K/1st grader (just as you would with TOG), or you can use the phonics and math portion of MFW K/1st for this child. Either way, the idea is NOT to do the entire K/1st grade program with this child because that kind of defeats the purpose of multi-level learning. (It's your choice, really.) But you'd still need something for learning to read and math, whether it's MFW K/1st or not.

 

As with TOG, every child is always doing their own level of math, LA, and electives. MFW does have recommendations for those subjects, but you're not bound to them. The weekly grid provides room for you to write in their own individual assignments in these subjects. I usually photocopy the grid, one per child, and then keep each child's grid in their own notebook with math and LA assignments written in. This serves as my portfolio for the state as well.

 

Notebooking pages and mapwork in MFW are easily adaptable to the child's skill level.

 

MFW is designed for efficiency. Short, focused lessons as per Charlotte Mason, with deeper content and longer assignments as the student gets older. By high school the student is working independently 'with guidance', as high school is definitely college-prep and focused on those needs (part of which is learning how to follow a syllabus, meet deadlines, etc.). MFW does language arts CM style in the elementary years, with some copywork, narration, dictation, and memorization assignments scheduled right on the grid, and other CM-style resources recommended for the rest. However, because the layout of MFW is very balanced, mom has time to do more of WTM way of language arts if she prefers. I've known of lots of MFW users who do it this way... MFW for the core content subjects, then WTM for the rest. One mom here on these boards took the manual and turned it on its side one year to do it LCC style. I thought that was very clever. ;)

 

Some moms like to do the science scheduled in MFW because that's the best way to insure it gets done. :lol: Or simply because we just LIKE what they have scheduled. Other moms skip the science and do their own thing.

 

Ditto with music and art.

 

Be sure to look at what's scheduled for Bible, too. MFW is more than just history. :001_smile: If you can get to a MFW booth at convention to see the whole layout in person, that would be great. If not, then I recommend going to the website, printing out all the sample lessons for every year, and reading through them in order. This will give you an idea of the "big picture" and how MFW builds upon itself each year to address those different learning stages.

[mrsrevmeg]

I have never used MFW, but I have used TOG. LOVE it!!!!! We are able to all have the conversations about the same things/people at dinner. They get excited talking about the different details in their books. I especially love that it is so Godly. We are able to talk about world history from a Christian perspective. (I am assuming that would be a plus for you since your other option is MFW) I will never use another curriculum.

[Donna A.]

I have never used MFW, but I have used TOG. LOVE it!!!!! We are able to all have the conversations about the same things/people at dinner. They get excited talking about the different details in their books. I especially love that it is so Godly. We are able to talk about world history from a Christian perspective. (I am assuming that would be a plus for you since your other option is MFW) I will never use another curriculum.

 

Yes, this is all true of MFW as well. :001_smile:

 

So many similarities, yet so many differences! :tongue_smilie:

[TracyP]

Just wondering which would work best for my "spread" of ages/ grades next year, which will be 6 yo k/1st, 8 yo 2nd, 11 yo 6th (13 yo 7th will be in another program). I could see perhaps combining the younger two in MFW, but not seeing how it would work to have the younger ones and the 11 yo in MFW together in the same program. I see that 7th grader will be in a separate program. Do you plan on switching all at 7th? I ask because I would (sorta) prefer MFW for the K-5 age but TOG for 6th and up. (I can't afford that so we use -and enjoy TOG in a very laid back way with littles) If you aren't going to use TOG for late middle school and high school I would go with MFW.

 

That lead me to ToG, which seems better suited to cover all "stages" no matter what year you are in. What I can't figure out is what is the difference between ToG and MFW...is it the books, the TM, the method, the worldview, the missionary focus (or lack of)? They seem so similar from all I have looked at, what makes them different would really help me decide. The differences I see are MFW is lighter with an option to 'add on'. TOG is heavier with a message of 'don't try to do it all'. MFW is planned daily, TOG is planned weekly (you have to break down into a daily plan). The big difference is the Socratic discussions. This and the ability to keep all ages on the same time period are what I prefer over MFW. I think MFW wins in the 'ease of use' category.

 

That all said, I plan to focus on the basics of phonics/reading/writing and math with the youngers - and include them in the history as they show interest and at a level they can participate and have fun. I want my choice for history/ literature based on what will challenge and interest my 6th grader. So far she has had history through the Middle Ages (and that was last year, we dropped the ball on history this year).

 

Thanks for any advice or opinions you can share!

 

I think the only way you can know for sure is to look at samples for both. They are actually quite different and I think most people end up being very happy with the one they pick because they are so different. One will *probably* fit your style and goals pretty clearly over the other.

[ange]

As I thought, there are so many similarities and yet differences and they both look so sound (and fun). I am wondering for those of you that have used MFW, are the years from ECC up written to a specific grade level, and supplements suggested for younger and more advanced? Donna A. - you touched on this, I am wondering are the years written with the expectation that a 4th grader would be doing ECC, 5th grader CTG, 6th grader RTR, etc.? I understand how ToG has the options for the 4 "stages" in every year plan, but I don't see that MFW is set up that way. How exactly do you challenge an older student and "fold in" the younger into the same year? I guess I am thinking there is one lesson plan, so how do you make that work for all the different age levels/ abilities w/o lots of "tweaking" on the parents part. In MFW, is it broken down somehow for each grade level?? I am not looking to create my own adaptations for each grade, if you know what I mean! :001_huh: Thank you so much for all your advice!!!

[ange]

To all the ToG users that kindly responded...I have noticed on the ToG boards many people saying they are confused with the planning required, and that they are having to basically still do a lot of planning. It sounds like you have to make your own plan out of the ToG plan that will fit each of your child's needs & schedule. Do I have that right? I have read it is a "buffet" and you just choose what you wish...I'm just wondering if that gets old having to do so much planning? I thought the point of ToG was to get the plan so that your time is spent w/ your kids, not creating lesson plans?

 

I also notice ToG users refer to MFW as being "light" on academics and I wonder is this because you have used MFW and found it not to be academically challenging, especially the older grades...or is this based on using w/ younger grades, or is it just something you heard or concluded from comparing the curriculums.

 

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your help!!!

[Donna A.]

I also notice ToG users refer to MFW as being "light" on academics and I wonder is this because you have used MFW and found it not to be academically challenging, especially the older grades...or is this based on using w/ younger grades, or is it just something you heard or concluded from comparing the curriculums.

 

 

Go over to the high school board and do a search for MFW discussions at that level. There's quite a few WTM forum members doing MFW for high school. Some have switched from TOG because MFW is a lot more efficient... not "light", but efficient. You have to understand there's a difference.

 

 

for those of you that have used MFW, are the years from ECC up written to a specific grade level, and supplements suggested for younger and more advanced? Donna A. - you touched on this, I am wondering are the years written with the expectation that a 4th grader would be doing ECC, 5th grader CTG, 6th grader RTR, etc.? I understand how ToG has the options for the 4 "stages" in every year plan, but I don't see that MFW is set up that way. How exactly do you challenge an older student and "fold in" the younger into the same year? I guess I am thinking there is one lesson plan, so how do you make that work for all the different age levels/ abilities w/o lots of "tweaking" on the parents part. In MFW, is it broken down somehow for each grade level??

If you can get your hands on a MFW TM, you'll see what I mean. Yes, MFW is set up differently than TOG. Rather than having an entirely separate section for each level, Marie includes notes and assignments all within the same weekly grid/teacher notes for that week explaining at least some of what to do with "older" or "younger" children.

 

ECC, Expl-1850 and 1850-Modern all have the separate grid right there. You'll be able to tell when looking at some of the books and activities which ones are appropriate for a 3rd grader and which are appropriate for an 8th grader. That part is true in ALL the years of MFW, not just those three programs. It's just those three that have the separate grid. In ECC, it's a separate grid and supplemental package for middle schoolers. It was done this way because, for a family who followed MFW from the beginning, they would do ECC when the oldest child is about 3rd grade. So the junior high package is for when you cycle back around to ECC the second time and your oldest is now a middle schooler.

 

Expl-1850 and 1850-Modern do the opposite: they include a separate grid and supplemental package for younger kids. This is because, again, for the family who did MFW from the beginning, the oldest child is now in middle school so the main grid is written with them in mind. The 2nd grid is for younger siblings being folded in.

 

Those two years in between ECC and Expl-1850 -- CTG and RTR -- don't have a separate grid because it's assumed the oldest child in the family is *about* 4th-6th grade. This is the middle range of 2nd-8th grades and is the easiest to add to/skip as needed for older or younger children. You could do the very same thing with a textbook in the 4th-6th grade range. Marie has notes along the way, too, pointing out when something might be said a different way for a younger child, or something like that. She also addresses the how-to in teacher notes at the front of the manual. There are several pages of instruction for you to read before you begin... and then the lesson-specific notes each week throughout the year. So you're not "winging it" on your own.

 

And again, all those books and videos listed in Book Basket at the back of the TM have approximate age levels and descriptions, so you know what to order for which age group. Yes, there are picture books for little kids, as well as unabridged books for teens and adults, and books for every genre.

 

It's really not as difficult as it sounds. It's not "tweaking"; it's "adapting" for different grade levels just like a one-room schoolhouse. There's a difference. (To me, tweaking is when you completely sub out an assigned book for something different, or even a whole subject. Adapting for multi-level learning is not the same thing.)

 

Not sure if that explanation helps any, but I do recommend trying to get to a convention to see the manuals in person. If you're a visual learner like me, you need that. I first found MFW months before convention season and I wanted to get started right away, so I printed out all the sample lessons from the website and read through every year they had available at the time to get a better idea of the big picture. I also listened to several of their conference talks on CD. That was *very* helpful to both me and my dh.

[Donna A.]

Thinking about your specific situation.... If I were you, just coming into MFW with your kids' ages, here's what I would do:

 

ECC for all, with junior high supplement for the oldest. Youngest will need phonics. You can use MFW K/1st grades for that, or use something else. After that child is reading, then you'd just get whatever language arts you like for that child (as with all). Same with math. You can either use their recommendations for these subjects, or not.

 

Then,

 

Whichever history year your oldest child needs before high school. If he hasn't done the Middle Ages, for example, you'd go with RTR for 8th grade.

 

When oldest is in 9th grade, he would begin again at the beginning with high school Ancient History & Lit ("AHL"). Younger children still in elementary would go on with the next program in the cycle, which in the above example would be Expl-1850 if you started with RTR.

 

But you said oldest will be in a separate program. Assuming you keep it that way, I'll refer to your 2nd child as the "oldest" in quotes. In that case, you'd choose based on her needs. So the first year with MFW would be ECC (*not* with the junior high supplement pkg unless she's somewhat advanced and you want those extra assignments for her). Then the following year would be whatever history program you need her to start with. Since you said she's done all through the Middle Ages, you'd begin with Expl-1850. So she/they would do ECC when she's in 6th, Expl-1850 in 7th, and 1850-Modern in 8th. In those last two years you'd use what they call the "Adventures supplement" package with your youngest at that point.

 

Then when that "oldest" child begins high school, the younger siblings would continue on with the cycle. Cycling back to the beginning after 1850-Modern would put you back at ECC, but if you feel it's too recent since doing it the first time, you might go with CTG instead. That would be nice because then they'd still be doing the same time period together even though "oldest" is now in high school -- your dd in high school Ancient History & Lit, and the younger ones doing Creation to the Greeks elementary program.

[frankcassiesmom]

To all the ToG users that kindly responded...I have noticed on the ToG boards many people saying they are confused with the planning required, and that they are having to basically still do a lot of planning. It sounds like you have to make your own plan out of the ToG plan that will fit each of your child's needs & schedule. Do I have that right? I have read it is a "buffet" and you just choose what you wish...I'm just wondering if that gets old having to do so much planning? I thought the point of ToG was to get the plan so that your time is spent w/ your kids, not creating lesson plans?

 

I also notice ToG users refer to MFW as being "light" on academics and I wonder is this because you have used MFW and found it not to be academically challenging, especially the older grades...or is this based on using w/ younger grades, or is it just something you heard or concluded from comparing the curriculums.

 

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your help!!!

 

I think TOG SEEMS teacher intensive but it's not. I find it takes little to no planning at all. The only real planning I need to do is print pages out and spend an hour every couple of weeks reserving books at the library. BUT that's once you get used to how TOG is set up, etc. Once you get over the fact that it looks scary and hard it's really quite easy. You get the kids on a schedule. So for example, one day Introduction and hand out books. Maybe the next day maps and a read aloud, next day they start writing assignments, next day final draft and worksheets, last day wrap up loose ends and show they know the people and vocabulary. Once everyone gets used to what is done on what day it's cake.

[ange]

Thank you so much Donna, you have been incredibly helpful! I appreciate the time you have taken to explain MFW. I think I understand now how all the different grades are covered in one year. I am still debating where we would begin. I read that ECC is where everyone new is to begin, as you suggested. That would go well w/ what my 7th grader will be doing, as his program includes a full year of geography and cultures w/ a missions focus. hmmm. You then suggest Exp-1850. Do you have a suggestion how to cover the Renaissance and Reformation if I did that? My 10 yo. did not get to cover that yet and it looks like that is in the end of RTR??? I was going to do MOH3 w/ her this year, but it didn't happen. I was even thinking we could start in RTR as my daughter loved middle ages last year, and I thought my boys would enjoy the hands on stuff....but maybe I am not understanding the "philosophy" regarding getting the foundation of ECC.

 

Thanks for the suggestion to go to the HS board, that has been very helpful too!