mom2bee Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 This is just a minor braf, but also meant as encouragement to those of us who are trying to make bilingualism a reality in our homeschools and families. So, its been about 6 days of doing Spanish time and Psuedo-Spanish immersion for 10-30 minutes day, yesterday, after working on reading with 2 of my students, LilGal and I were getting ready to have DST and ReaderBoy was waffling back and forth on whether he wanted to stay in the room, go to another room or go home. (He doesn't want to learn Spanish) I had pulled out The Book which meant DST had officially began, so I was bound by the unwritten commandment #3Thou Shalt Speaketh As Much Spanish As Possible During Daily Spanish Time, so I turned to LilGal and I said. "[LilGal], dile que durante de la hora del espanol, hablamos solo en espanol si podemos." LilGal said, "Oh yeah, [ReaderBoy] during spanish time you have to speak spanish." "No, no. [LilGal]. dile que durante de la hora del espanol, hablamos solo en espanol si podemos y el probablement quiere jugar en la otra sala" (with a few gestures thrown in) LilGal: "Oh yeah, [ReaderBoy] during spanish time, we speak as much Spanish as we can, so you probably want to play in the other room." ReaderBoy's eyes were huge, having heard me speaking in so much Spanish that LilGal understood and promptly got his toy and ran out the room. I just want to note that we haven't studied verb conjugations yet, I didn't teach her the words podemos, solo, durante de, jugar, otra, dile, si=if, or probablemente. But during Spanish time, we look at vocabulary in a book and I talk to her about in Spanish. I ask her to do things, and tell her stories in Spanglish using the vocabulary that we've learned and reviewed recently. So, for those of us who want to move toward spoken languages in the home. Its possible and it works!!! :). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy in Australia Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 That's great! I predict that pretty soon, your boy will be asking to learn Spanish too (if only not to be left out of conversations :D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Muy bien!:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) (Shouldn't it be durante la hora, not durante de la hora? I'm Italian, but the latter option just sounds totally weird to me :confused:, so I'm curious.) Ontopic, it's great that she's starting to pick things up! Good luck! Edited March 7, 2011 by Ester Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 (Shouldn't it be durante la hora, not durante de la hora? I'm Italian, but the latter option just sounds totally weird to me :confused:, so I'm curious.) I think I that I was taught that while durante is sufficient, durante de can (should) be used to when talking about something with specific parameters, like a set time. Durante de la clase de las matematicas... durante la clase de las matematicas... durante (de) la primavera durante (de) la lectura. I dont think (de) is required, but I think it can be used in some cases without being wrong. Either way, I'm glad we're having some success and I continue to study myself, so I should be getting better as she does. Thanks for prompting me to look further into that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Strictly speaking, Italian allows adding di in some instances too, so I don't know why it struck me as odd, probably this specific example. Thanks. :) Crazy Romance languages, as much as they're close, there are so many subtle differences. Sorry for a sidetrack. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Since I shared my 'minor success' I feel its only fair to share the first hiccup too. Yesterday, we had a really informal DST. I wanted to try playing a game in Spanish. Since we'd done body parts the day before and were doing clothing yesterday, I felt this would be a good opportunity to play a Command/Obey game. Simon Says would be perfect! But in the spirit of DST being conducted, always in As Much Spanish As Possible, I called it: Diego Dice I thought my plan was perfect. With Diego Dice, we'd review our recent vocabulary and hopefully pick up on tu/tus vs mi/mis...I really thought that it was clever. I thought she'd have lots of fun, and learn by osmisis and it would be all giggles and sunshine (the sun was shining after all.) Anyway, I told her we'd play a game and then, picking up The Book, proceeded in Spanish. "El juego se llama, "Diego Dice". Diego Dice es como 'Simon Says', pero en Espanol." She gave me a blank look, I waited for the light bulb to come on so I waited... and waited...then repeated with gestures and clearly saying Simon Says the english way. I wanted her to catch 'Simon Says' wasn't Spanish. She frowned. "Que es el problema...no entiendes?" I was beginning to sweat at this point, she was looking mad. Luckily, we'd covered angry already, so I could ask. "Por que estas enajada?" She quickly informed me, "No, I do NOT understand and I'm mad because you aren't making sense, thats the problem!!!" (Well, at least her comprehension is really picking up...) "Que..." "You're not making sense, you said 'Diedi, what Sim dog (perro)'?! That's not real Spanish" I sat there for about 20 seconds feeling confused, then my light bulb went off. We had a quick lesson, in English, about /r/ vs /rr/ in Spanish, and I told her that pero=but, while perro=dog. I also had to explain about 'como' Then I spoke part by part and translated the sentence for her so that she'd understand. After that, I sandwiched the introduction line, "Diego Dice es un juego como Simon Says, pero en espanol >Diego Dice is a game, like Simon Says, but in Spanish > Diego Dice es un juego como Simon Says, pero en espanol...Entiendes?" "Si, entiendes." <--should have been 'entiendo' I was worried that I'd soured the spanish mood, she seemed really ticked off but she's a trooper and fortunately, LilGal is ready to forgive my numerous goofs all the time. We had a lot of fun outside and she chased me around proclaiming: 'vas a comer tus pantalones negros.' <-- I think there is only one thing wrong in that sentence! She should have said 'voy', not 'vas'. She's picking up on pronouns and I'm hopeful that this could really work out after all. ********************** Does anyone know if its bad that I'm not correcting her verb conjugations. We're not 'scheduled' to cover Verb conjugations until the end of this month...she may self-correct before then, or she may 'cement the wrong knowledge' and we all know how hard unlearning is....??? help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohdanigirl Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I think I that I was taught that while durante is sufficient, durante de can (should) be used to when talking about something with specific parameters, like a set time. Durante de la clase de las matematicas... durante la clase de las matematicas... durante (de) la primavera durante (de) la lectura. I dont think (de) is required, but I think it can be used in some cases without being wrong. Either way, I'm glad we're having some success and I continue to study myself, so I should be getting better as she does. Thanks for prompting me to look further into that. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Well, here's a different point of view: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1605192 We probably need to have a native speaker weigh in on this. Mabelen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Well, here's a different point of view: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1605192 We probably need to have a native speaker weigh in on this. Mabelen? Thanks :). I'll be sure and keep this in mind in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohdanigirl Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 oops, that's true. Durante de is not used. Not sure what I was thinking. People do it, but it is incorrect. Durante 5 años... durante miz vacaciones... durante su vida... durante los proximos premios... etc... That would be us English speakers transloting directly....duringe the... This time I double checked with the three native speakers at my dinner table.::D should have known better though. Danielle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 oops, that's true. Durante de is not used. Not sure what I was thinking. People do it, but it is incorrect. Durante 5 años... durante miz vacaciones... durante su vida... durante los proximos premios... etc... That would be us English speakers transloting directly....duringe the... This time I double checked with the three native speakers at my dinner table.::D should have known better though. Danielle Thanks a lot! This forum is so great, so much feed back so rapidly! I'm still working many of the little kinks out of my Spanish (the kind that grow rapidly into permanent, bad habits!). I'm also going to keep a more attentive ear on what it is I'm actually saying and typing each time. I can't wait til I get back on campus, I'm going to make some stops through the Language Center and Spanish Tutors. I also have to watch out for when my Native peers are being careless/informal with their language. They know better, so it doesn't hurt them to hear it. But I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Vi sono poi alcuni verbi, in genere participi, che oggi funzionano quasi esclusivamente come preposizioni (durante, mediante, nonostante, rasente, escluso, eccetto, ecc.): durante la sua vita (funzione preposizionale) vita natural durante (funzione participiale) (...) Alcune preposizioni possono associarsi ad altre preposizioni (soprattutto ad a e di), formando le locuzioni preposizionali: vicino a, accanto a, davanti a, prima di, ecc. (Dardano/Trifone, La nuova grammatica della lingua italiana, Zanichelli, Bologna, 2010, pp.362) Bold is mine. I cannot believe I didn't think of it! :D Right, durante is actually a VERB and that's where the problem lies: it's not like dietro, which is sometimes on its own, sometimes with DI (dietro di voi), and sometimes it can go with A too. Technically, those prepositions which are actually verbs, usually, shouldn't be combined in locuzioni preposizionali: Durante il nostro viaggio Vendita mediante distributori... Nonostante il fatto che... Un valore rasente lo zero (BUT, "rasente a" IS an allowed combination in some cases, that I know for sure) Escluso/eccetto il cane There seem to be some grey areas in usage, but it also seems that a general rule of the thumb is not to combine "verbal" prepositions with other prepositions, if not in some fixed expressions - because doing so constitutes an error of "logic" within the languge itself: durante il nostro viaggio is actually verbally mentre durava il nostro viaggio, you CANNOT say mentre durava * del nostro viaggio here. Sensini is even less ambiguous than Dardano/Trifone: Alcune preposizioni improprie reggono direttamente il nome, preceduto o meno dall'articolo, cui sono preposte: durante l'inverno (!), rasente il muro, lungo la spiaggia (...) Altre preposizioni improprie, invece, hanno bisogno, per reggere il nome, dell'aiuto di una preposizione propria. (Sensini, La grammatica della lingua italiana, Mondadori, 2010, pp.378) So, if Spanish is anything like Italian :tongue_smilie:, my VERY wild guess would be that "durante de" is one of the common mistakes that have already entered the language, but that strictly linguistically and logically speaking, it shouldn't be used. Same in Italian, where prepositions are being messed up big time by native speakers all the time. Keep in mind that I may be wrong, since it happens quite often that the logic of Italian doesn't correspond to the logic of French even in some basic things (correspondence of verbs and pronouns at times, subjunctive use at times, etc.), so it may be that the verbal nature of durante in Spanish isn't quite like in Italian, but... but you get the general point, I guess. Now that I ventured to try to explain this seemingly illogical occurance, I can sleep in peace again. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Vi sono poi alcuni verbi, in genere participi, che oggi funzionano quasi esclusivamente come preposizioni (durante, mediante, nonostante, rasente, escluso, eccetto, ecc.): durante la sua vita (funzione preposizionale) vita natural durante (funzione participiale) (...) Alcune preposizioni possono associarsi ad altre preposizioni (soprattutto ad a e di), formando le locuzioni preposizionali: vicino a, accanto a, davanti a, prima di, ecc. (Dardano/Trifone, La nuova grammatica della lingua italiana, Zanichelli, Bologna, 2010, pp.362) Bold is mine. I cannot believe I didn't think of it! :D Right, durante is actually a VERB and that's where the problem lies: it's not like dietro, which is sometimes on its own, sometimes with DI (dietro di voi), and sometimes it can go with A too. Technically, those prepositions which are actually verbs, usually, shouldn't be combined in locuzioni preposizionali: Durante il nostro viaggio Vendita mediante distributori... Nonostante il fatto che... Un valore rasente lo zero (BUT, "rasente a" IS an allowed combination in some cases, that I know for sure) Escluso/eccetto il cane There seem to be some grey areas in usage, but it also seems that a general rule of the thumb is not to combine "verbal" prepositions with other prepositions, if not in some fixed expressions - because doing so constitutes an error of "logic" within the languge itself: durante il nostro viaggio is actually verbally mentre durava il nostro viaggio, you CANNOT say mentre durava * del nostro viaggio here. Sensini is even less ambiguous than Dardano/Trifone: Alcune preposizioni improprie reggono direttamente il nome, preceduto o meno dall'articolo, cui sono preposte: durante l'inverno (!), rasente il muro, lungo la spiaggia (...) Altre preposizioni improprie, invece, hanno bisogno, per reggere il nome, dell'aiuto di una preposizione propria. (Sensini, La grammatica della lingua italiana, Mondadori, 2010, pp.378) So, if Spanish is anything like Italian :tongue_smilie:, my VERY wild guess would be that "durante de" is one of the common mistakes that have already entered the language, but that strictly linguistically and logically speaking, it shouldn't be used. Same in Italian, where prepositions are being messed up big time by native speakers all the time. Keep in mind that I may be wrong, since it happens quite often that the logic of Italian doesn't correspond to the logic of French even in some basic things (correspondence of verbs and pronouns at times, subjunctive use at times, etc.), so it may be that the verbal nature of durante in Spanish isn't quite like in Italian, but... but you get the general point, I guess. Now that I ventured to try to explain this seemingly illogical occurance, I can sleep in peace again. :D Thanks, for your effort, lol. Someone had corrected me 2 posts back :lol:, though admittedly their correction wasn't nearly as sound as yours (though a little easier on my brain!). Its great to know that others will be able to benefit from this log of our efforts, they'll know some errors to watch out for from jump. I <3 this place, so much info and experience. The synergy here is amazing :). Enjoy your nap, Ester Maria, you deserve it for all your hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmarango Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 My experience has been to rephrase what my dd has said so that she understands the conjugations. From your example I would have said: Vas a comer mis pantalones y voy a comer tu camisa. Sounds like you two are having lots of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohdanigirl Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I just have to say, I think it is great that you are sticking to it. It is so easy to just leave it for later. I ad so many friends growing up whose parents didn't teach them the other languages they know. I belive there was a belief that it would be bad for kids. I recall my mom mentioning that many people believed that if you taught you dc Spanish (for example) they would never learn English correctly. Mom spoke to us in Spanish from birth. After I turned 10 my father wouldn't allow me to speak it around him, because he did not understand. As a result, I fell out of practice and developed an accent. Luckily I was taught very well, picked it up 7 years later and although I have an accent, I do not speak Spanglish like DH and his siblings. They are Native Spanish speakers, and they have actually forgotten some things as time goes by. As the op said, I think they just fell into bad habits. Any how, keep up the great work. t will pay off. Danielle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 My experience has been to rephrase what my dd has said so that she understands the conjugations. From your example I would have said: Vas a comer mis pantalones y voy a comer tu camisa. Sounds like you two are having lots of fun. Yeah, I'm going to work on the rephrasing thing. I want to try and do it in a gentle, non-intrusive way. (She was being a crazy person and chasing me across the yard when she declared her intention to eat my black pants. I think it might have been a 'buzz kill' to stop and correct at the moment, given the circumstances :lol:.) I just have to say, I think it is great that you are sticking to it. It is so easy to just leave it for later. I ad so many friends growing up whose parents didn't teach them the other languages they know. I belive there was a belief that it would be bad for kids. I recall my mom mentioning that many people believed that if you taught you dc Spanish (for example) they would never learn English correctly. My parents were both advanced speakers of a 2nd language that I wanted very badly to learn as a child... I hope when the time comes I will be able to raise my own children to be multilingual. I don't know why, but I love languages. Always have. They are such hard work sometimes, but I love, love, love them! There are several that I wan't to learn to fluency. ...Any how, keep up the great work. t will pay off. Danielle Thanks so much for your words of encouragement. I wan't to be fluent one day, (preferably sooner than later) and I'm working to really master and internalize all the grammar in my current resources and build lots of oral expression and aural comprehension skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmarango Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Oh, I didn't mean it to be a buzz killer! I thought that you were joining in on the craziness. Similar to, "If you are going to eat my black pants, then I am going to eat your red shirt. Here I come!" My dd is always telling me that she is going to eat me up. We even pretend to eat each others ears, nose, knees, etc. and then we have to open up the stomach to retrieve all of our valuables. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabelen Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Congratulations on your sucesses and above all your persistence in the face of difficulties. Regarding the use of durante de, I have to say as a native speaker I have never seen/heard it used that way; always simply durante. Good luck and on with your journey! I love to hear your stories! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Gracias, Mabelen. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ketti Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 that's good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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