A conundrum of sorts regarding AP options versus local options

[Sharon in SC]

I would appreciate the hive insight on our dilemma. I have a very bright 15yo capable of AP work. However, as her high school years progress, I can foresee a very real dilemma. We are richly blessed in that our homeschool community provides *rich* opportunities for the core courses. The tutors are absolutely terrific and the students learn alot. My question is - how disadvantaged might my daughter be if we were to forfeit pursuing AP courses/credit in the name of leaving her under the tutelage of these great folks? I need to decide which is the greater sacrifice - forfeiting AP credit and the leverage that would bring to her transcript or forfeiting the opportunity to be taught by folks who do a stellar job in teaching the lab sciences, foreign languages, etc. Please help me ferret this out. Thank you!

[nutmeg]

I'm still learning about homeschooling highschool myself, so maybe I don't understand the dilemma. But why does it have to be an either/or situation? If these tutors/teachers are as good as you say, will they not adequately prepare your daughter for the AP exams?

[RoughCollie]

Can you do both? Perhaps your DD could take one or two AP course and continue taking courses provided by your homeschool community.

 

I guess it depends on what you expect to get from the AP courses. I intend for my DC to take AP courses solely to make their transcripts more meaningful to college admissions folks. If they can get college credit for the courses, that's icing on the cake.

 

Another consideration is that all AP courses are not created equally. Some are really great, others have results that are quite a bit less than stellar.

 

Your DD can also take the AP exam without taking an official AP course. There are study guides for each exam, and the website has a section in which textbooks are reviewed and recommended for each subject.

 

I don't know exactly what college admissions people want to see on a homeschool transcript. I plan to use a variety of standardized tests to prove that my kids know the material: SAT, SAT subject tests, PSAT, AP, along with community college courses (if the schools here permit it).

[Sharon in SC]

I'm still learning about homeschooling highschool myself..... But why does it have to be an either/or situation? If these tutors/teachers are as good as you say, will they not adequately prepare your daughter for the AP exams?

 

Well, see, like you I'm just learning myself which is why I've posted. I was led to believe by our state's accountability group that AP courses would be needed to sit for the AP exams. I've read RoughCollie's post and will study that further but, maybe that's not the case (that you have to take a AP certified course)?.....

[Sharon in SC]

I guess it depends on what you expect to get from the AP courses. I intend for my DC to take AP courses solely to make their transcripts more meaningful to college admissions folks. If they can get college credit for the courses, that's icing on the cake.....Your DD can also take the AP exam without taking an official AP course. There are study guides for each exam, and the website has a section in which textbooks are reviewed and recommended for each subject..

 

My intent for considering AP credit is exactly what yours is (beefier transcript, primarily). You've touched on something, though, that I guess I'm unclear on - can you take the AP exam without having taken an accredited AP class? I had been led to believe you could not. Your post implies differently so I'm eager to learn more!

[nutmeg]

I was led to believe by our state's accountability group that AP courses would be needed to sit for the AP exams.

 

Here's the FAQs, ma'am ;)

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/about_faq.html

 

Can I take the AP Examination if I haven't taken an AP course?

Yes. Because the College Board is committed to providing access to the AP Exams to homeschooled students and students whose schools do not offer AP it does not require students to take an AP course prior to taking an AP Exam.

The College Board urges students to study the kinds of skills and subjects outlined in the Course Description for each subject, because they represent the basis for the AP Examination. The best way to do so is in a year-long AP course in which the students and teachers focus on AP-level work. Some students, however, have taken strong courses and/or have studied in depth on their own. Such students may be able to perform quite well on the AP Exam.

[Jan in MO]

My daughters have taken many AP exams and they have not attended *any* AP-authorized courses. They just studied the material here at home and then take the exam in May.

 

Right now my younger dd is studying for 3 AP exams that way.

 

In fact, it's not uncommon for traditionally schooled students to "self-study" for additional AP exams for which their school does not offer courses.

 

I'm guessing that the confusion comes from the recent CollegeBoard mandate that courses on transcripts cannot be called "AP something" unless the teacher has submitted to a course audit and had that course approved. That doesn't mean that the student can't take the exam.

 

Here I put the courses on the transcripts like this:

 

US History w/AP Exam

Advanced Biology w/AP Exam

Computer Science w/AP Exam

 

Then in the "Exam Scores" section of the transcript I list all of those AP exams and corresponding scores.

[Sharon in SC]

Ah,Jan, I think you've just hit the nail on the head! I remember in my meeting with our accountability group that they spoke about all the hoops necessary for a parent to have work approved as AP by the board. This is making more sense now. Thank you for sharing how you've cited the work your students have done.....

 

I'm guessing that the confusion comes from the recent CollegeBoard mandate that courses on transcripts cannot be called "AP something" unless the teacher has submitted to a course audit and had that course approved. That doesn't mean that the student can't take the exam.

 

Here I put the courses on the transcripts like this:

 

US History w/AP Exam

Advanced Biology w/AP Exam

Computer Science w/AP Exam

 

Then in the "Exam Scores" section of the transcript I list all of those AP exams and corresponding scores.

[Ms. Riding Hood]

From a post by RoughCollie: "I don't know exactly what college admissions people want to see on a homeschool transcript. I plan to use a variety of standardized tests to prove that my kids know the material: SAT, SAT subject tests, PSAT, AP, along with community college courses (if the schools here permit it)."

 

From someone that's been reading tons of admissions webpages at top universities, I'll tell you what I think about this. I'm sure people who actually have students admitted can tell you more! But these are my impressions.

 

--They want to see students who have depth, or specialization. For so long we've heard about "well rounded" students. The fact is that at this point in the game, almost all students applying to top schools have lots of AP, great test scores, etc., etc. Sadly, it is so commonplace that these students do not stand out. They're merely part of a very well-qualified crowd. Colleges create a class of "diverse individuals". They want people who can bring something to the table that maybe others cannot, people who are unique in some way.

 

--They want testimony for homeschoolers ability. Certainly AP/SATII, SAT, etc., scores can provide evidence of a student's abilities, but they also really want some objective references from teachers or others the student has worked closely with.

 

That said, this is not necessarily true of state universities or even mid-range private universities. At most state schools you CAN stand out with great test scores. And they generally care little to none about SATII. BUT, considering the path my ds has traveled in his college plans--from great state U, to US military academy, to top engineering schools, I wish I'd done a few things differently.

 

If you think there's a chance of your dc going to an elite school, in other words, if they have the capability to go (drive, aptitude), then make plans to prepare for that possibility. I would have had ds take SATII tests for major subject areas--history, math, science, possibly language. Many schools don't require more than two. But some do, and now it would be a pain for ds to prepare for a test in American history which he studied in the 9th grade.

 

I also think (easier said than done) that I would have allowed him to work more deeply in areas that were meaningful to him, rather than pushing him to fulfill certain course requirements. They all say, "4 years math, 4 years English" blah, blah, blah. But I would have risked leaving off something to let him really shine in his special area. The very best schools, I think, want that type of student. Of course some schools, like one I recently read about, insist on everything being "by the book". This school required that every student must have a transcript/GPA and class rank. Okay, I can provide a transcript, for what it's worth, but what does class rank in a homeschool really mean? I can write down 1/1. And I think that will satisfy them! But schools that function that way are not necessarily where I want my kids to go.

 

Did this come across as a rant? I hope not. But it did get a little long, and was probably not what RoughCollie even had in mind in her post. But I read so much of this stuff lately, just thought I put my oar in--FWIW!

[Kendra]

Lynne, I thought your post was very helpful. Thanks.

[Susan in IL]

We did USPUSH, Psychology, and Human Geography at home and ds took those exams. He took AP Calc (took test) and AP Chem (no test) at the local high school.

[FloridaLisa]

They want to see students who have depth, or specialization. . . .I also think (easier said than done) that I would have allowed him to work more deeply in areas that were meaningful to him, rather than pushing him to fulfill certain course requirements. They all say, "4 years math, 4 years English" blah, blah, blah. But I would have risked leaving off something to let him really shine in his special area. The very best schools, I think, want that type of student.

 

Lynne, would you mind elaborating? What would you have cut and what would you have added? I too have seen that schools want to see passion in a certain area. How to allow that and still meet the academic expectations of the colleges? It seems a pull between classes to game a system and education in pursuit of the person and passion. ::sigh::

 

Lisa

[RoughCollie]

Yes, this is what I had in mind in my post, Lynne. I researched a few ivy league, private and public universities in New England and made a chart that detailed their requirements.

 

My purpose was to get a general overview of what these types of colleges require of students they admit, so I could prepare my DC for admission to any of these. I live in Mass, and I hope my DC go to school near where we live, so I limited my survey for that reason.

 

The schools I looked at were Harvard, Yale, Boston University, Boston College, University of Mass, and Framingham State College.

 

First, I noticed that the private schools, especially, look at:

 

1 Extra-curricular activities

2 Jobs

3 Volunteer work

4 Several AP tests taken (grade 4 or 5) or college courses taken in high

school (minimum grade B)

5 Top 10-15% of high school students accepted

6 Average high school GPA is A-

7 Leadership skills are very important

 

This is regarding the schools I looked at:

 

Harvard was the only ivy league school (out of only 2 on my list) that required 3 SAT subject tests. The public schools did not require these tests.

 

The private schools required 4 years of a foreign language, while the public schools required only 2.

 

The private schools required 3-4 years of social science, while the public schools required only 2.

 

All school types required 4 years of English.

 

The private schools required 4 years of math (with the final course being either calculus or pre-calculus), while the public schools required 3 years (Alg I & II and geometry).

 

All the schools I looked at required biology, chemistry and physics, and the private schools required an additional year of an advanced science.

 

After all this, I am left with the realization that I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make him drink.

 

RC

 

 

 

Did this come across as a rant? I hope not. But it did get a little long, and was probably not what RoughCollie even had in mind in her post. But I read so much of this stuff lately, just thought I put my oar in--FWIW!

[Ms. Riding Hood]

Hey, that's a nicely organized list! Your chart sounds like a neat thing. I guess I didn't notice the differences in requirements for social science, math or hard sciences, because that's what I expect my kids to do anyway. But I had noticed the language requirement. That's sure another thing to keep in mind.

 

Horse and water--yeah, totally. You can also lead a horse to water, have him drink it, and still not get into one of "the" schools. But that's not the whole goal for us, anyway. Being prepared to excel anywhere is smart though!

[Gwen in VA]

I am so impressed with the level of planning you ladies are doing! Keep it up!

 

Lynn, I thought your "rant" was right on target. Obviously :) I have no clue what admissions people are "really" looking for, but looking at my own kids and what they did in high school and where they did and didn't get in, I think your "rant" was really great!

 

Stanford has an absolutely amazing write-up of what it is looking for in homeschooled students. I think probably all "top' schools are looking for similar things, but Standford just has done the best job of verbalizing its expectations for hs'ers:

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/uga/applying/extras/1_2a4_homeschooled.html

[Ms. Riding Hood]

Gwen, Thanks for the Stanford link. That does sum it all up very well!

[Linda in NM]

Thanks, RC--that's interesting about the languages. At this point, my son wants to play college hockey in Michigan, probably with some sort of science program...however, hockey is first and foremost. We're going to Michigan State this summer (hockey camp), and my college reunion (visit with hockey coach). He's also trying out for the USA baseball team from the Southwest...he's an athlete first, and a student second, although he's a solid student (algebra in 8th with an A average, etc.) I'll just keep moving along, and make sure he sticks with Latin and German for four years, to say nothing of making sure that physics is there! (We're planning on Biology, Chemistry, Marine Biology...)