Classical Writing--Which parts of the program would you call essential?

[Kimber]

I read that humongous thread about standing on the shoulders of giants in regards to teaching writing. In it I came across the posts of a few people that thought that some of the exercises in CW (Homer is the one I specifically have questions about) that are not really necessary.

 

Here is my question--If you skip elements in Homer, which parts do you skip? If you're not a skipper :) then which parts do you think are actually most important?

 

I'd like to streamline this to focus only on what's really important. I have my own ideas, but I think I need a group consensus before I just start dropping things willy-nilly like.

 

I almost trust myself, but not quite.

 

Thanks

 

Kimberly

[cajun.classical]

I read that humongous thread about standing on the shoulders of giants in regards to teaching writing. In it I came across the posts of a few people that thought that some of the exercises in CW (Homer is the one I specifically have questions about) that are not really necessary.

 

Here is my question--If you skip elements in Homer, which parts do you skip? If you're not a skipper :) then which parts do you think are actually most important?

 

I'd like to streamline this to focus only on what's really important. I have my own ideas, but I think I need a group consensus before I just start dropping things willy-nilly like.

 

I almost trust myself, but not quite.

 

Thanks

 

Kimberly

 

Kimber,

 

I took a thorough look at the Diogenes core and noted what areas of Homer are developed in later levels. I started out (Homer A) doing all of the sections, but not all the parts of each grammar section. Now in Homer B, I'm skipping the grammar part altogether. I've got my reasons for this. I'm not going to argue that the exercise isn't useful. It just doesn't serve my purposes. So we don't diagram and parse sentences on Day 2. We are doing the vocabulary analysis and dictation on Day 2 (but I'm using the model from Simply Spelling for this. Integration!)

 

We do the Six-Sentence shuffle, which is a great exercise, but sometimes I only do one sentence instead of 2. The core gives a lot of flexibility--do as much or as little as you need to or desire to. I was originally (in Homer A) skipping the Day 4 paraphrase assignment, but I noticed in Diogenes, that this particular skill is crucial. So, we are doing the paraphrases now. And, we do all of the writing assignment each week.

 

If you needed to slim down the assigments even more, you could alternate the analysis assignments each week. Covering the important ones, but just not every week. Also some skill levels (of the Analysis) are review levels and you could cover these as needed.

 

Also, to get the most bang out of your buck, try to have the Analysis exercises relate to the writing project. For example, my son wasn't writing nearly descriptive enough. So I started taking sentences from his Rough Draft, and work through the Six-Sentence shuffle with them. By the time, he finished the exercise, he had some nice sentences to choose from for his final draft. That helps to improve the writing and to save time. You could probably do the same thing with the paraphrase exercise--expand or condense a passage from the rough draft (to address whatever writing problem exists). The more time I spend with this program, the more ways I see to make it work for me. The workbook is a wonderful blessing, but it can also be an anxiety producing burden if we feel compelled to complete every exercise exactly as written. We're doing Homer B without the workbook, and I'm finding it liberating!

 

Good luck!

[Julie in GA]

For Homer A, we've done pretty much everything. For Homer B, we sometimes skip the parsing exercises. There are quite a few, as well as a parsing review chart. Also, like Anglelina, we would often do only one sentence-shuffle exercise on Day 3.

 

For Aesop A, I tailored each lesson to the child, working directly from the Core and choosing vocab/spelling words to go along with our other language arts/spelling work. This was the first year that I used the workbook, and did skip quite a bit of the grammar, because we don't begin formal grammar until fourth grade. I chose the sections that would be helpful, and not too abstract, and used them. For Aesop B, we won't skip as much, becuase I do rely on CW for teaching grammar, reinforcing it with Rod & Staff.

 

As far as the Writing Projects go, we would sometimes skip some of the Day 1 "chart work." After getting some advice on the CW board, I realized that some of the Day 1 work can be done orally, or mentally, without constructing all of the charts. Some of the charts are done during the analysis portion anyway, but are described a bit differently in the Core manual for the writing project portion. This confused me at first, and I thought my ds had to make two sets of charts.

 

HTH,

[PeterPan]

Angelina, what are you doing for grammar? (just curious!) I haven't used Homer, but I assumed the grammar was going to build and get applied in later levels, which is why it surprises me to hear it doesn't. Or is it that covering it ANY way, a less intensive way, would still give you adequate background to go on and do anything you need with it later? Just seems like the grammar is one of the elements you hear people getting burnt out on most in Homer.

 

And what do you think of the models in Homer? Now that you're doing in sans workbook, would you also try applying it to other models? Or do you LIKE the models and find their length or whatever helpful?

 

Any comments on a good age/grade to start Homer A? :)

[Julie in GA]

Also, to get the most bang out of your buck, try to have the Analysis exercises relate to the writing project. For example, my son wasn't writing nearly descriptive enough. So I started taking sentences from his Rough Draft, and work through the Six-Sentence shuffle with them. By the time, he finished the exercise, he had some nice sentences to choose from for his final draft.

 

:iagree: This is an excellent idea!

[Julie in GA]

Not Angelina, but I vote for 5th grade as a good time to begin Homer A. It begins with simple projects, similar to Aesop, but then the learning curve steepens.

[Kimber]

This is fantastic! I can't wait to try this. And wouldn't you know it, I had my dd10 doing everything but the paragraph work. I knew I needed to post this. Thank you so much. And I'm waiting to see your response to OhElizabeth.

 

Kimberly

[Kimber]

This is very encouraging. I had the same question that you did on the charts. I was confused about this and the writing project analysis. Thanks for the feedback!

[cajun.classical]

Angelina, what are you doing for grammar? (just curious!) I haven't used Homer, but I assumed the grammar was going to build and get applied in later levels, which is why it surprises me to hear it doesn't. Or is it that covering it ANY way, a less intensive way, would still give you adequate background to go on and do anything you need with it later? Just seems like the grammar is one of the elements you hear people getting burnt out on most in Homer. :)

 

Yes and Yes. There is grammar in Diogenes, but I can't see that it is integrated in any way or that it builds. The authors of the program believe that analysis of writing at it's most basic level is understanding how sentences work (i.e. parts of speech and grammar). That's why all the grammar. I agree that the grammar part of Homer is what burns people out, so if something has got to give, then I think it's the grammar. And to the second part of your question--about covering the grammar in a less intensive way--I think yes. We school year round, and CW doesn't take a full year--even with the Poetry supplement. In our off-times, we did JAG. I think it was quite sufficient. AFter completing Homer B and the Beginning Poetry this next school year, we'll cover grammar again, more in depth. I think I'll use Our Mother Tongue (AG looks good, but I've taught grammar too many times to justify in my mind the expense of AG. I can do it with something cheaper.) As an aside, what really got me excited about Diogenes was the Theory part of the Analysis. There is a whole lot of Classical Rhetoric covered in Diogenes! That seems to be much more integrated into the program than the grammar.

 

 

You wrote: "And what do you think of the models in Homer? Now that you're doing in sans workbook, would you also try applying it to other models? Or do you LIKE the models and find their length or whatever helpful?

 

Any comments on a good age/grade to start Homer A?"

 

I'm comfortable using my own models with Aesop, and I think I'll use my own models when I go through Homer A next time. Right now in Homer B, I'm using the models for Homer that you can download from lulu for 97 cents. I like the models they've chosen and Homer B is a little more tricky for picking out models. I might branch out and try using my own models. We'll see. I do think it's very helpful and a great time-saver to have the models already picked out and ready to go.

 

About starting Homer A, that's my great dilemma right now. DD9 ( a newly turned 9) is an advanced writer and seems bored with Aesop. At the same time, I'm worried that the advanced analysis of Homer will be too much for her. I might start Homer A at the end of 4th just to see. I'm unsure. For the average student, I would say, 5th grade. For advanced writers, I would say, proceed with caution and watch for signs that you've overloaded. I figure there's no hurry. I'm going to go through Poetry A with her next Fall and then I might do some writing across the curriculum using Aesop. I'm still thinking through all this for dd. She likes to write, but she's tired pretty quickly of rewriting fables and fairy tales.

[PeterPan]

Thanks Angelina, this all makes sense. Our girls are the same age (mine turns 9 this week!). We're doing WT2, and my plan, like yours, is to get her into non-fiction writing using those same skills. I looked over IEW at the convention and saw where I already have all the pieces, just need to do it. My dd is a nice writer, but she's not really into it. The model lengths in WT2 get her and I'm concerned about what would happen if we went into Homer, with its long models, too early. I don't really want to jump in early and do shorter models, because you sometimes lose the point. With my little class, it seems the more maturity they have, the more they can bring to it, meaning later can be better with this. I like your idea for doing Poetry. I bought Wordsmith Apprentice to use with her this fall, simply to have something relatively independent and no-brainer when the baby comes. We'll see how it goes, but it should be fine. I'm starting her into non-fiction writing right now with some basic things (5-6 summary sentences a day, after a while we'll turn that into paragraphs). Guess I have to see how that goes to know if we'd do the Poetry this summer or 2nd semester next year. Either would work.

 

There's a WT3 in the works, last I heard, so maybe that would be available about the time I'd be wanting to start it, say June of next year.

 

I looked over JAG at the convention and thought it looked dry as toast. Was it? Our Mother Tongue looked interesting, but I didn't look at it thoroughly, just quickly.

[cajun.classical]

I looked over JAG at the convention and thought it looked dry as toast. Was it?

 

Well... I suppose one woman's dry as toast is another woman's no-nonsense and focused approach. lol. I guess it all depends on what you are looking for. I really like that is was straightforward and no-frills. We learn a part of speech; we practice it all week; and we test on Friday. It doesn't take a lot of time and gets the job done. Both of mine really liked it, but maybe they are weird. My son, when he finished JAG, asked me if there was another level he can complete! He likes diagramming! Go figure!

[Mallory]

Subscribing, this is in the mail on the way here, and I want to be able to find this thread when I have it in my hands!