V/V "experts"

[razorbackmama]

I have one child that has nearly every symptom that supposedly V/V will help with. So I am praying for $600 so I can go to a V/V conference and get trained in it.:D

 

2 of my other kids (especially 1 of them) has several symptoms as well. I did just sort of an experiment, to see if they could picture a single word in their heads and then a simple sentence. Both of them could, and they were able to verbalize it to me pretty well. Would this mean that it'd be a waste of time to do V/V with them? Or could they possibly have a break-down occurring further up the line, when it gets into the paragraphs and the higher-order skill questions? I will say that one of the kids, when I told him to picture a cowboy, the cowboy was mostly in brown (so not a lot of color), and he wasn't doing anything - he was just standing there holding a gun. I know that for it to have the most sensory stimulation there needs to be a lot of color and movement....:confused:

 

Thoughts?

[cathmom]

IDK, but I had not heard of this curriculum until I read your thread the other day. Then my 7 yo had OT on Thursday and the therapist mentioned it as a possibility for him. She thought that their speech therapist had had training in it and was going to speak to her about if it would help him.

 

He's in OT for help with writing - he had a really bad grip, and needs to strengthen his hands and core. Since I have an older dc with dysgraphia, I want him to have all the help he needs! Anyway, his writing is much, much better, but his issue is not being able to come up with anything to write. He's very unimaginative in certain ways, like the way he names his toys (his red panda is named Red, his blue king is named Blue King, his larger white knight is called Big White Knight...you get the picture!). So the OT is sitting there trying to help him make up a story so she can get him to write something, and he's just not coming up with anything. He also has trouble writing factual things, so it's not just creative writing.

 

So if we do anything with V/V, I'll let you know how it goes!

[razorbackmama]

Definitely, Jeanne! I have a couple of SLP friends whose brains I may pick about it too. AND I might ask the SLP who diagnosed the 13yo with the Mixed Receptive-Expressive Disorder if she thinks this would help HIM.

[cathmom]

They just called and he's going to have an informal evaluation next week to see if the program might help him.

[razorbackmama]

How exciting! Is this through your OT? Or through a Lindamood-Bell center? They have one here, but I haven't even called them - I KNOW they are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo expensive. But I WONDER...could we just do an informal evaluation like that too? Especially since I do plan to get trained (at the very latest it'd be in Feb. because they are coming to Co Springs) myself....

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[cathmom]

This is through the place where he gets OT and used to get speech. It's his former speech therapist who has the training. I'll PM you the link - maybe you can look for a similar place where you are and see if there's anybody trained in it.

[siloam]

How exciting! Is this through your OT? Or through a Lindamood-Bell center? They have one here, but I haven't even called them - I KNOW they are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo expensive. But I WONDER...could we just do an informal evaluation like that too? Especially since I do plan to get trained (at the very latest it'd be in Feb. because they are coming to Co Springs) myself....

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

Kirsten,

 

I have used both LiPS and Seeing Stars without formal training. I haven't found them too difficult to implement. There are full scripts in the TM's, they just don't have a set schedule of how fast to go through the material or how often to review. Those little pieces I have to figure out myself.

 

In our case I a going to give VV a try, because while we all do well with visualizing we don't have a lot of detail. All of us thus do great with big picture concepts and poorly with the finer points. It will probably be a good 6 months before I know if it will work this way or not though.

 

Heather

 

[mom2a&z]

My dd justs finished 4 weeks (110 hrs) of intensive V/V therapy at a Lindamood Bell Center.

 

We had tried to do V/V at home but it just wasn't working. We were both getting so frustrated, so we knew we had to do something different.

 

Our choices were training for myself ($600), or send her to the already trained therapists ($$$..you really don't want to know).

 

We chose the Lindamood Bell Center, and for my dd, it was not worth the money. There was very little change between her scores when she was first tested and her scores when she left. For the amount of money we paid, I was expecting a lot more.

 

I sat in on a few sessions, and I think most parents can do it themselves. The biggest issue most parents have is handling errors. Now that have seen how the trained therapists deal with errors, I know I can do it at home.

 

My dd and I have done a few sessions this week and they have gone remarkably well. We have also started using the techniques with SOTW and her other reading. It's very slow going, but I'm seeing progress.

 

I think V/V is a great program, but I would get trained myself and not pay the big bucks for someone else to do it.

[razorbackmama]

Kirsten,

 

I have used both LiPS and Seeing Stars without formal training. I haven't found them too difficult to implement. There are full scripts in the TM's, they just don't have a set schedule of how fast to go through the material or how often to review. Those little pieces I have to figure out myself.

 

In our case I a going to give VV a try, because while we all do well with visualizing we don't have a lot of detail. All of us thus do great with big picture concepts and poorly with the finer points. It will probably be a good 6 months before I know if it will work this way or not though.

 

Heather

 

 

I tried doing it myself (own the book and some of the Imagine That! stories). It went *OK*. He says he can picture things better now than he did before. But I felt like we weren't making a lot of progress, so I want to get trained. The manual *looked* like it would be user-friendly, and it was...SORT OF. But I think part of our lack of progress was due to me not knowing all the ins and outs of it.

[razorbackmama]

My dd justs finished 4 weeks (110 hrs) of intensive V/V therapy at a Lindamood Bell Center.

 

We had tried to do V/V at home but it just wasn't working. We were both getting so frustrated, so we knew we had to do something different.

 

Our choices were training for myself ($600), or send her to the already trained therapists ($$$..you really don't want to know).

 

We chose the Lindamood Bell Center, and for my dd, it was not worth the money. There was very little change between her scores when she was first tested and her scores when she left. For the amount of money we paid, I was expecting a lot more.

 

I sat in on a few sessions, and I think most parents can do it themselves. The biggest issue most parents have is handling errors. Now that have seen how the trained therapists deal with errors, I know I can do it at home.

 

My dd and I have done a few sessions this week and they have gone remarkably well. We have also started using the techniques with SOTW and her other reading. It's very slow going, but I'm seeing progress.

 

I think V/V is a great program, but I would get trained myself and not pay the big bucks for someone else to do it.

 

Are you able to figure out why there wasn't much progress? Do you think your dd needed more time with them? I'm guessing that isn't not that you suspect the program wasn't a right fit, since you're continuing it on your own with her?

 

Yeah, the ONLY way that my kids would be able to do it properly would be to have me trained. There is no way we'd be able to have it done at an LMB Center. Time is an issue as well, but money...no way.

 

They are actually having a sale on their evaluations right now. What sort of things do you find out with an evaluation? Do they tell you exactly what program they need? I'm pondering having an eval done and then getting trained in whatever program they say my kids need. What are your thoughts on that?

[mom2a&z]

Are you able to figure out why there wasn't much progress? Do you think your dd needed more time with them? I'm guessing that isn't not that you suspect the program wasn't a right fit, since you're continuing it on your own with her?

 

Yeah, the ONLY way that my kids would be able to do it properly would be to have me trained. There is no way we'd be able to have it done at an LMB Center. Time is an issue as well, but money...no way.

 

They are actually having a sale on their evaluations right now. What sort of things do you find out with an evaluation? Do they tell you exactly what program they need? I'm pondering having an eval done and then getting trained in whatever program they say my kids need. What are your thoughts on that?

 

 

According to the director at Lindamood Bell, my dd doesn't need any more intensive instruction. She needs follow up which is 2 hrs a day, 2x a week. Dd would learn how to apply what she has learned to her school work and leisurely reading.

 

The problem is that we live 2 hours away, and just don't have any more money. We tried to get in as many hours as we could in a short amount of time. We were staying in a motel during the week, so we couldn't spread out the instruction beyond 4 weeks. It might have been better if we could have done fewer hours per day for more weeks.

 

Here is a list of the tests they gave dd when we had her evaluated:

1. Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test - IV, Form A

2. Detroit Tests of Learning Aptitude - 4 (Word Opposites)

3. Detroit Tests of Learning Aptitude (Verbal Absurdities)

4. Detroit Tests of Learning Aptitude - 2 (Oral Directions)

5. Woodcock Reading Mastery Test - NU, Form G (Word Attack)

6. Slosson Oral Reading Test - RS

7. Wide Range Achievement Test - 4, Form Blue (Spelling and Math Computation)

8. Gray Oral Reading Test, Form A (Paragraph Reading and Recall per passage - 3rd - 12th grade)

9. Gray Oral Reading Test 4, Form A (Rate, Accuracy, Fluency, and Comprehension)

10. Lindamood Auditory Conceptualization Test - 3

11. Informal Tests of Writing (Symbol to Sound and Nonsense Spelling)

12. Symbol Imagery Test

 

Based on the results of dd's initial evaluation, they recommended 100 - 140 hrs of V/V. Dd already had a Psycho-Educational and a Speech-Language evaluation, so the Lindamood Bell evaluation didn't tell us anything that we didn't already know.

 

If you're not sure which program your dc might need then the evaluation would be worth it. I guess we just wanted additional confirmation that V/V was the right way to go.

 

We have tried so many other things to teach dd comprehension, but V/V is the only thing that has worked at all. It's a great program, I was just disappointed that the results weren't better based on the amount of money we paid.

 

Hope this helps.

[cathmom]

Ds had his informal evaluation today. I couldn't believe how hard it was for him to describe a picture! She asked him to describe a picture to me and another person who was there so that we could picture it in our minds. He misunderstood and gave us clues (good clues, actually). Then she explained it again - that he was to try to describe the pictures so that we could imagine them, and it was like pulling teeth. Then she let him choose a picture to try to write a sentence about. He chose a picture of a boy sitting on the beach with a surfboard next to him, watching somebody else surf. She asked him what the picture showed. He replied, "People." When pushed, he said, "People on the beach." It continued on like that and he was actually getting upset about it.

 

She is going to give me a call to set up a time and I plan to discuss it more with her.

[razorbackmama]

Ds had his informal evaluation today. I couldn't believe how hard it was for him to describe a picture! She asked him to describe a picture to me and another person who was there so that we could picture it in our minds. He misunderstood and gave us clues (good clues, actually). Then she explained it again - that he was to try to describe the pictures so that we could imagine them, and it was like pulling teeth. Then she let him choose a picture to try to write a sentence about. He chose a picture of a boy sitting on the beach with a surfboard next to him, watching somebody else surf. She asked him what the picture showed. He replied, "People." When pushed, he said, "People on the beach." It continued on like that and he was actually getting upset about it.

 

She is going to give me a call to set up a time and I plan to discuss it more with her.

 

Wow!!! That is really interesting! I hope it helps!!!

[siloam]

Ds had his informal evaluation today. I couldn't believe how hard it was for him to describe a picture! She asked him to describe a picture to me and another person who was there so that we could picture it in our minds. He misunderstood and gave us clues (good clues, actually). Then she explained it again - that he was to try to describe the pictures so that we could imagine them, and it was like pulling teeth. Then she let him choose a picture to try to write a sentence about. He chose a picture of a boy sitting on the beach with a surfboard next to him, watching somebody else surf. She asked him what the picture showed. He replied, "People." When pushed, he said, "People on the beach." It continued on like that and he was actually getting upset about it.

 

She is going to give me a call to set up a time and I plan to discuss it more with her.

Interesting, did they explain that this would actually be part of the pre-step? They can't even figure out if the child is able to visualize till they can learn to verbalize the pictures. If you were to work with them they will first teach her how to verbalize the pictures then re-test so to speak to see how well they can form pictures in their mind.

 

Heather (who got farther in her VV reading this weekend) :D

[Amy Jo]

I just wanted to add in that if your child is willing, you can learn V/V on the go. I read the manual and started with my son. We took a few breaks, partially so I could learn more of what I was doing! I also have one of the "V/V Stories" books - the one that contains stories for K - 8th. If your child is already frustrated / discouraged, you might want the training. Best of luck to you! My son started out like pulling teeth too, and now is really enjoying Trumpet of the Swan and gives decent narrations from our school read alouds.

[emonline]

I want to preface this by saying this is, in part, a self-serving post as I am trying to sell the program I am talking about. With that said, I used a program called IdeaChain by MindPrime (you can google it to find more info about it). It is a Visualizing and Verbalizing clone that is intended for parents, with step-by-step instructions. I am sure that if you have the money and time, the best way to go is to have your child work with a trained LMB teacher or be trained yourself. I admire those that were able to figure out the V/V program themselves and implement it as I wasn't able to do it. (I bought the V/V program, and studied it (a lot), and just couldn't get any momentum going with the program. I was able to self-teach the LMB LiPS program, and had great success with that. I had some good success with the IdeaChain program. The best part was it was exceptionally simple to use, and I felt it had the same approach as the LMB program (and I think the LMB programs are all very good).

[razorbackmama]

I just wanted to add in that if your child is willing, you can learn V/V on the go. I read the manual and started with my son. We took a few breaks, partially so I could learn more of what I was doing! I also have one of the "V/V Stories" books - the one that contains stories for K - 8th. If your child is already frustrated / discouraged, you might want the training. Best of luck to you! My son started out like pulling teeth too, and now is really enjoying Trumpet of the Swan and gives decent narrations from our school read alouds.

 

Well, we STARTED with it last year, and my ds seemed to do very well with as far as we got in it, but I wasn't seeing much progress in other areas. HOWEVER, I'm wondering if we just didn't get far enough. I don't really know. I've got the Imagine That! stories for grades 3-6 and the manual, but we really fizzled since it seemed like a waste of time at the time. I do still think it would help, but I think I need more training.

 

I want to preface this by saying this is, in part, a self-serving post as I am trying to sell the program I am talking about. With that said, I used a program called IdeaChain by MindPrime (you can google it to find more info about it). It is a Visualizing and Verbalizing clone that is intended for parents, with step-by-step instructions. I am sure that if you have the money and time, the best way to go is to have your child work with a trained LMB teacher or be trained yourself. I admire those that were able to figure out the V/V program themselves and implement it as I wasn't able to do it. (I bought the V/V program, and studied it (a lot), and just couldn't get any momentum going with the program. I was able to self-teach the LMB LiPS program, and had great success with that. I had some good success with the IdeaChain program. The best part was it was exceptionally simple to use, and I felt it had the same approach as the LMB program (and I think the LMB programs are all very good).

 

I've heard of IdeaChain.:001_smile: Maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that IdeaChain was more for word by word and sentence by sentence, but beyond that (paragraph by paragraph) I'd need to move onto V/V? I think that's where my ds's breakdowns occur.:confused: Or do you think maybe IdeaChain would help us get the ball rolling so that I'd be able to implement the higher levels of V/V better, since I'm familiar with the process?

[emonline]

You are correct -- the process starts with words and moves to sentences. I did exactly what you suggested. I used the program as written out. Then we started with simple readers with pretty simply paragraphs and broke them down sentence by sentence (just as they suggest in the book). Then I added more comprehensive questions (main idea of the paragraph; had her picture what was going on in the paragraph, not just one sentence). This worked for us. I don't know why I had issues with the V/V manual -- I just couldn't understand what I was supposed to be doing enough to get any momentum going with that program. (As I said, I thought the LiPS program was wonderful -- not only worked with reading but helped with speech articulation. I had no issues implementing it and expected the same with V/V, but just found it difficult to figure out exactly what to do and if I was doing it right).

[razorbackmama]

Hmmmmmmmmm. I wonder if I could get Ideachain to get the process started and then switch to V/V for longer things, and since we'd already be familiar with the basics, it wouldn't be so difficult?????:confused:

[emonline]

I know some have bought V/V and just taken off with it, but I just couldn't do it. Even when I spent (a lot) of time beforehand trying to figure out how a particular session would go, the session never seemed to go the way I thought, and we would stumble through a day/week and I would just feel like I was missing something or doing something wrong. (This in contrast to LiPS which I felt was very intuitive and I was able to pick right up on.) IdeaChain gave me a start. It got me going, and frankly by the time we finished the book, my daughter had gotten so much better at the process, moving to paragraphs didn't seem that hard at all. I had an idea what a lesson should look like. So, it worked well for me, and my daughter is doing grade level now. I still wonder why I couldn't pick up on the V/V because I was very excited to start it and just couldn't seem to do it on my own. I actually had the V/V program and got rid of it without ever using it -- I probably should have done what you were suggesting and used it after the IdeaChain instead of starting off on my own!

[razorbackmama]

Thanks! I just might look into that!

[merry gardens]

Well, we STARTED with it last year, and my ds seemed to do very well with as far as we got in it, but I wasn't seeing much progress in other areas. HOWEVER, I'm wondering if we just didn't get far enough. I don't really know. I've got the Imagine That! stories for grades 3-6 and the manual, but we really fizzled since it seemed like a waste of time at the time. I do still think it would help, but I think I need more training.

 

 

 

I've heard of IdeaChain.:001_smile: Maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that IdeaChain was more for word by word and sentence by sentence, but beyond that (paragraph by paragraph) I'd need to move onto V/V? I think that's where my ds's breakdowns occur.:confused: Or do you think maybe IdeaChain would help us get the ball rolling so that I'd be able to implement the higher levels of V/V better, since I'm familiar with the process?

I couldn't respond earlier because I'm far from a "V/V expert". My story is similiar to emonline's. We used LiPS successfully, but I didn't find that v/v had nearly as much scripting as Lindamood's LiPS program. I was prepping to do v/v full blast. I looked at the price of the v/v training dvd's and when I was just about ready to buy them, I learned of IdeaChain. I bailed on v/v and bought IdeaChain. I wanted more scripting than v/v had, at least to start. I feel more comfortable with the process now, and without even having completed the program, I see some results.

 

While we're not finished with the program, already it helped me identify where my children were breaking down in the reading comprehension process. My most dyslexic child really visualizes quite well--for him, his language and de-coding are the problem. The program is showing him that he needs to use words to create pictures for other people to see what he's thinking. His older brother (with possibly mild dyslexia) has a harder time staying focussed on the main point. I knew that, but it became much clearer to me when I asked him to describe a picture and he spent a disproportionate amount of time telling details about the background of the picture. He does that when he talks and reads too--he takes in or describes all the details while often neglecting or missing the main point. Come to think about it, I'm really glad we went with IdeaChain because the v/v picture stage didn't have as much detail to the background of their pictures as the IdeaChain photos, and I might not have caught what he was doing until later.

 

We're moving slowly through IdeaChain, and when we finish that program, I may add some stories from v/v. The v/v "Time Flies" history books look interesting to me. I might use them even if the children don't need more work because they looked like an interesting approach for history. Once a child is visualizing at the sentence level, then they may have learned enough to apply it in their future reading and communication. I'll find out if that's true when I reach the end of IdeaChain.

Edited November 9, 2010 by merry gardens

[cathmom]

Just an update: it looks like my son is going to go through the V/V program, but we're going to wait until he's done with OT (which should be in the next month or so) and then start him on that, because I just can't take him there 2x a week.

 

She said from her informal evaluation that it seemed that he had an expressive language delay, a delay in getting what he wants to say out. I've noticed this when he's asking me questions for years - he'll stand there and say, "Mommy" five times when he's already got my attention, and it seems to take him forever to spit it out!

 

She said that the program starts with a simple picture, and they build on describing it with prompts like color/size/shape. Then it goes to more detailed pictures, then just a word (I guess describing your image of the word), then a sentence, then a paragraph. She thinks it would take him 2-3 months to get through the program.

[razorbackmama]

I couldn't respond earlier because I'm far from a "V/V expert". My story is similiar to emonline's. We used LiPS successfully, but I didn't find that v/v had nearly as much scripting as Lindamood's LiPS program. I was prepping to do v/v full blast. I looked at the price of the v/v training dvd's and when I was just about ready to buy them, I learned of IdeaChain. I bailed on v/v and bought IdeaChain. I wanted more scripting than v/v had, at least to start. I feel more comfortable with the process now, and without even having completed the program, I see some results.

 

While we're not finished with the program, already it helped me identify where my children were breaking down in the reading comprehension process. My most dyslexic child really visualizes quite well--for him, his language and de-coding are the problem. The program is showing him that he needs to use words to create pictures for other people to see what he's thinking. His older brother (with possibly mild dyslexia) has a harder time staying focussed on the main point. I knew that, but it became much clearer to me when I asked him to describe a picture and he spent a disproportionate amount of time telling details about the background of the picture. He does that when he talks and reads too--he takes in or describes all the details while often neglecting or missing the main point. Come to think about it, I'm really glad we went with IdeaChain because the v/v picture stage didn't have as much detail to the background of their pictures as the IdeaChain photos, and I might not have caught what he was doing until later.

 

We're moving slowly through IdeaChain, and when we finish that program, I may add some stories from v/v. The v/v "Time Flies" history books look interesting to me. I might use them even if the children don't need more work because they looked like an interesting approach for history. Once a child is visualizing at the sentence level, then they may have learned enough to apply it in their future reading and communication. I'll find out if that's true when I reach the end of IdeaChain.

 

Thanks so much! I just might look into IdeaChain further!

 

She said from her informal evaluation that it seemed that he had an expressive language delay, a delay in getting what he wants to say out. I've noticed this when he's asking me questions for years - he'll stand there and say, "Mommy" five times when he's already got my attention, and it seems to take him forever to spit it out!

 

I have one that does something similar, except his problem is that he gets my attention and then forgets what he was going to say.:tongue_smilie:

 

I hope it works well for your little guy!