Science sequence questions

[Teachin'Mine]

We are using Apologia, but my questions aren't specific to their curriculum.

 

We're doing a basic plan of physics, then chemistry, then biology.

 

So far, dd has been doing a chapter in Apologia physics each week. At this pace, she'll complete the text in half a year. She'd like to do at least some of the advanced books in the Apologia series, and we're wondering what would work best.

 

Would you recommend doing physics and advanced physics in the same year, followed by chemistry and advanced chemistry, etc. or would it be better to do physics and chemistry one year, followed by advanced physics and advanced chemistry? As of now, we're thinking it would be a good idea to take SAT II tests in both of these, and maybe the AP as well.

 

Have you done either of these? What were the pros and cons? Based on your experience, or what publishers/educators have recommended, which is the better plan?

 

Thank you for any and all suggestions! :)

[FaithManor]

Has your daughter had algebra 2 and some trig? If not, her pace in physics might slow down because the second half is more math intensive and she must have trigonometry in order to do advanced physics. Also, some advanced physics concepts are heavily dependent on having done a year of chemistry as these are interrelated disciplines.

 

We have used apologia all the way through high school.

 

Faith

[Teachin'Mine]

Faith she completed Saxon algebra 2 last year and is working on Advanced Math this year. She's 1/4 of the way through the regular physics text and hasn't had any problem with the math so far. But she hasn't had any chemistry, except for some of the math aspect covered in algebra 2. Apologia's physical science did lead up to chemistry, but I'm guessing that you're saying that she'll need to do the regular chemistry text first?

[FaithManor]

If she's that advanced in math, then I'd let her just keep going in the physics and then if she hits the wall or needs specific chemistry knowledge maybe get the Apologia chemistry books for her to use as a reference. It's just that chemistry is in some ways integral to physics just depending on the topic being discussed (especially at the advanced physics level) but it's not totally dependent and may not trip her up. A lot depends on the kid...DH took two years of physics in high school and then physics in college and though he did have some chemistry topics he needed to learn on the fly, did just fine.

 

For a non-science oriented student who might struggle a little, I like the traditional sequence of getting chemistry and advanced chemistry out of the way before delving into physics or taking physics and advanced chemistry together followed by advanced physics. The main thing is that if there is any chance that your student will take advanced biology (Anatomy and Physiology) that the chemistry is done first because it comes up quite a bit in a good A & P course or at least it should.

 

Sounds like your student is doing just fine though and has the math to back up the advanced physics or will have by the time she gets into that portion of the book.

 

Faith

[Teachin'Mine]

In looking at the topics in the advanced physics book, it doesn't seem to have any that rely on chemistry, but I'm not sure. If the AP and/or SAT II physics tests include topics with chemistry, then she may need to learn those before taking the tests. It's just hard to figure out how to fit it all in before the AP which I understand is given in May.

 

So you're saying that if she can do it, then it's a better idea to continue with just physics this year, and do chemistry and advanced chemistry next year. Before realizing that she'd be doing the books in half a year, the advanced biology was the one she wanted to do. She will have chemistry before that.

 

I'm also wondering if colleges will look differently at the two credits in physics if they're taken in the same year. I know we had a thread about that a while back, and some just assign one credit for the two texts, but I'm one who believes that if both are done fully, then two credits should be given. It would be easier to "justify" if they were taken in two different years - I think. But that would also mean taking physics and chemistry AP tests the same year, and that sounds like a lot to study in a short time, and may also coincide with a math AP too - either statistics or calculus. Just writing this, it's sounding like a much better idea to keep going with the physics this year. :tongue_smilie:

 

Thank you so much for your help!!! :)

[FaithManor]

You have two transcript options:

 

You can list physics the first semester and advanced physics the second semester. This would look on par to taking college physics 101 and 102. Essentially what is covered in a high school physics book that is normally accomplished in two semesters for high school is done on a more accelerated level i.e. one semester in college. So the advanced physics would be a second semester class with the first semester as a pre-requisite or high school physics as a pre-requisite.

 

Your other option and one that might be better, would be to call it AP physics. AP classes in high school are supposed to be similar to taking a college class. The book is covered in half the time and then on to "advanced" for the second semester. So AP physics at a really good, competitive high school would be basic physics and advanced physics in one year just as though one were taking those two courses in one year as a freshman in college. My only caution for homeschoolers listing something as "AP" on a transcript is that they back it up with either the AP tests, CLEP tests, or a portfolio (maybe just semester exams) and a curriculum listing. It is unfortunate that we have to do this. Public schools are not required to back up their transcripts with AP/CLEP or portfolio and many, many schools that offer AP classes do not cover nearly enough material to be AP....they actually just lump all of the 3.5 GPA's in one room and then get excited when they can actually cover ALL of the basic material! No joke, in our area, AP chemistry just means they actually get through the entire chem I text in one year. I know this because dd, schooled in both chemistry and advanced chem, had to tutor an AP chemistry class because the teacher did not know any of the material. The kids were all given high school credit for AP chemistry and they only made it through half of the chem I book!!!! But, most of the AP courses in our area do manage to cover all of the basics while the non-AP classes rarely get through more than 2/3 of the basic book. So when they take advanced, the year begins with the remaining one 1/3 of last year's text and then however much of the next book they can get done. It's crazy and there isn't any accountability in the PS for this.

 

That said, some homeschoolers do reaaaaallllly pad their transcripts by calling everything AP and all they've done is covered regular material, in the regular time, and gotten good grades. There is nothing wrong with that education at all, kudos for doing a thorough job, but it shouldn't be called AP because it isn't on a college pace of learning and may not have enough advanced concepts for the student to skip a freshman prerequisite in that subject matter which is the whole point of AP.....getting that pre-req done in high school and going on to 200 level or sophomore work in that subject.

 

Does this make sense? I haven't started in on my second pot of coffee so I might be rambling and not helping at all.

 

Oh, AP classes are awarded at either 1.5 or 2 credits or they are scored on a 5.0 system which means an A is just huge in terms of GPA...ie. one could get a B in a non-AP course and still receive a 4.0 at graduation. This is somewhat controverial. My husband's AP classes in high school were 5.0 for regular credit. Mine were extra credit based on 4.0. When I did dd's transcript, I called a dear friend who is a high school science teacher in our local public school and asked what they did in our district. I figured that since dd was applying to a couple of top tier state schools, they would be expecting to see the same grade/credit award method as our local PS. This worked well and was never questioned. Additionally, though I kept a portfolio to back it up (DD did very, very well on her ACT but she is the type of kid who makes herself physically ill worrying about standardized tests, so we opted not to put her through AP tests), I was never asked for the info (but every transcript did include a curriculum list) and the AP credit was never questioned.

 

Sigh, so many hurdles.....I wish they would do more with the interview process for determining maturity to attend school. I've seen an awful lot of kids with banging transcripts and high AP scores who didn't make it through their freshman year of college! High scores don't necessarily equate to maturity and independent living/self-direction.

 

As for the chemistry, dh reminded me that the reason dd encounted chemistry in physics was because he was supplementing her Apologia physics with some of his 200 level college physics courses in which the disciplines were beginning to mix in terms of properties of matter, etc. That's a whole different level than Apologia so I am sorry that I inadvertently put that caution out to you....you shouldn't encounter it in the advanced physics of Apologia. Truly, I am very sorry....this was something I had completely forgotten.

 

Faith

[Teachin'Mine]

Faith thank you so much for taking the time for such a thorough reply!!! It makes perfect sense. No problem about the caution on the chemistry - I'm glad it's not a concern. :)

 

Dd and I have been talking more about this today, and she's wanting to just do all the sciences that are required and get them over with, and then going on to the advanced level after that. My concern in doing it this way is that by the time she gets to the advanced level, she'll likely have forgotten a lot of what she learned in the first text, and will need to review that extensively for the AP/SAT II tests.

 

I think listing it as an AP level course makes sense. I can decide how to list it after she takes the test. If the score is good enough to send, we can list it that way, and if not, just make it regular and advanced, or honors. It's probably a test that would be better to take at an older age. I've no doubt that she'll know the material, but the thinking and reasoning develops so much more in the later teen years.

 

I thoroughly agree that there's so much more needed than a good transcript and high scores to succeed in college. Too often students who would do great in applying themselves in college are passed over for others who aren't ready.

[elegantlion]

I could be wrong, but I thought you couldn't just designate a class as AP on a transcript. I thought your syllabus had to be approved by the college board, which own the AP trademark.

 

However, you could use the honors title. Is this right?

[Teachin'Mine]

My understanding is the same as yours Paula. That's why I added the word level to my potential course description. I think some home schoolers have gone through the red tape to get their course approved as AP, and others don't. But if the student takes the AP test and does well, I don't think it matters so much. But wording it a bit differently might prevent problems.

[FaithManor]

Teaching Mine and Elegantlion,

 

You are technically right that Ap must be an approved designation or at least should be. DD's were actually listed as "honors" because we didn't always follow an approved AP course simply because some of the ones our local PS uses are atrocious and we weren't going to follow up with AP testing because dd vomits a lot from nervousness on standardized tests (hands shake quite badly too) though she does very well in the end. But, here's the caveat....many homeschoolers do not realize this or because their own local schools are doing a poor job of teaching AP classes they feel justified in listing theirs as AP (though passing the AP test should be all that is required for homeschoolers transcripts) and do so. They get a way with this because there is a big gap between what college professors think and what college admission's department personnel actually know! Most college admission's department flunkies do not understand this....they are the ones that evaluate transcripts. College professors never see transcripts nor do the higher levels of management within the admission's departments at most colleges. Though some majors require a "board" of professors from within the discipline to decide on admission, these same people rarely, if ever see a transcript. Therefore, the AP issue is not questioned. Additionally, there are a record number of applicants to college these days and the shear number of transcripts to look over is staggering. I would say that in most cases, transcripts are not given that much attention.

 

The AP designation does look good, to that early group of people evaluating admission's applications and deciding who will move on to the next level of evaluation, but most will not think to wonder "was that an approved AP curriculum?"

 

Personally, if the child gets a good score on the AP exam itself, then it shouldn't be a problem to list AP...as the saying goes, "The proof is in the pudding!" But, I suppose that some of the higher tier colleges with tighter admission's policies and more competent transcript evaluators, might have a problem with it and it could hurt your student's chances of getting in.

 

Faith

[Melissa in Australia]

I have my ds16 doing both Apologia physics and chemistry at the same time. He finds the chemistry way easier than the physics, and is flying through the book.

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you Melissa for sharing what your son is doing. What will he do next year? Is he going to stay with Apologia? Will he do some of their advanced texts? Did he do biology last year?

 

:bigear:

[Melissa in Australia]

Thank you Melissa for sharing what your son is doing. What will he do next year? Is he going to stay with Apologia? Will he do some of their advanced texts? Did he do biology last year?

 

:bigear:

He did biology last year. He is more of a physics person' date=' and didn't enjoy the biology at all.

 

I have the advanced apologia text books sitting on my shelf, but I think he will be doing Open University instead.

Here in Australia homeschooled students don't get any credit for their school work at all. They have to find alternate pathways to get into University.

 

there are a few alternate pathways.

[list']

[*]wait until a mature age student

[*]some universities will accept a STAT score

[*]most universities will give entry to students that have done at least 3 open university units, and will even give unit credits off their degree for them.

 

The problem with open university is the expense. Each unit costs between $700-$900 for 13 weeks plus books. They are done mostly online through the top universities in Australia.

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you Melissa. Wow - homeschooling in Australia is very different from most states here.

 

In talking with my dd about this, we've pretty much decided to stick with one science subject a year, and do the regular course followed by the advanced one. I searched and read through sooooooo many threads last night, but ended up with more questions than answers on what texts we should use. :tongue_smilie: I'll start a new thread on whether to use Apologia's advanced physics or Saxon physics for the next text.