Horizons/Abeka to Math Mammoth or Singapore?

[Annabel Lee]

I did do a board search first and have read, read, and read some more...

 

My sons have been doing the placement tests for Singpore math but since MM has been said to be similar I've been looking at it, too. I'm thankful for all the time Corrleno & other people have taken to compare/contrast these programs so well. There's just a couple things I need to be clearer on before deciding:

 

Does MM have at least as much explanation for me for each concept as SM? I've got a few SM HIG's, texts & wkbks so I'm a little familiar w/ it (haven't used it, just have it :D). I don't think I could teach with any less teacher instruction. I know MM is written to the student but we would probably use it with me going over the explanation with them 1st. I've looked at MM samples & can't get a good feel for exactly how much explanation is there, as Maria says not everything is included in the samples at the same rate as in the real deal. Maybe I need to go dig through those some more...

 

Does MM have instructions for little games like SM? Are all those "extras" such as websites, soft-pac, and the extra worksheet thingy in MM really just "extra", or are they a necessary part of it?

 

Also, does MM have answers to all the problems somewhere with the solutions worked out step by step - at least as much as Singapore? I will need that in the older elementary levels.

 

As for scope & sequence, switching to Asian-style math is going to be a step backward in the number on the front of the book - I don't mind that. What concerns me is that we're coming from a half'n'half mix of Abeka & Horizons (they never do more than a combined total equivalent of 1 lesson per day), so my older ds would be giving up his newly attained division knowledge to go back and solidify earlier concepts, learn some peripheral topics, and learn the new program's particular way of doing things.

 

I should mention - I'm only entertaining the idea of switching b/c our current situation doesn't seem sustainable. My older son is having a tough go of it (read: hates math) and my younger could stand to be challenged more. Math takes anywhere from 2-4 hours, but this is b/c of them dawdling, not answering the 1st (or 2nd, or 3rd) time they're asked a question - so every "quick" oral exercise that is supposed to take 5 min. ends up taking 30.

 

If I were to keep on w/ one of our current programs, I suppose I could drop the Abeka & just do Horizons, but then I still have to give up the most advance topics my older ds has already learned (they'll come up in Horizons before the end of the year, but only as introduction). I'm hestitant to do the opposite, dropping Horizons for Abeka b/c I fill in gaps in Abeka w/ Horizons (geometry topics only), so we'd be losing that. Abeka is more "ahead", but Horizons has more topics.

 

HELP! This is terrible, my stomach hurts from feeling sick about this all night - I hate switching curriculums. Or maybe that's from breathing in the wildfire smoke seeping into the house... I thought I had math all figured out through the end of 6th grade.

[dcurry]

I, too, thought I had math figured out through high school, and that we would stick with ABeka math. I loved that it was "advanced" and that my kids could do it, and also that there was not alot of teacher involvement.

 

I think that was my mistake. Math needs teacher involvement. My kids could get the right answers, but didn't understand the concepts behind them.

 

Sorry I can't help you between SM and MM, but we've decided to switch to Singapore (we've never heard of MM) next year. I also hate switching math programs, but when my kids don't have a conceptual grasp of place value at a late age, or when they ask after doing averaging problems for a couple of weeks, "What IS averaging, anyway?", I decided to switch. (Besides, they also hate math... it is busywork to them w/o much meaning).

 

I'm ok going backwards to solidify concepts. I've heard that Singapore will teach everything up to Algebra in the first 6 books. If that means my 4th grader has to start with book 2 and not be ready for algebra until 9th grade, but that he actually understands the concepts and loves math (and doesn't spend 2 hrs/day on it either), then I'm ok with it.

 

We'll see how it goes after a year. I think it doesn't really matter what curriculum you use, as long as there is teacher involvement. Find something that appeals to you both.

[Annabel Lee]

Well, we've got the opposite going on here. For all the teacher involvement, time & effort I've poured into their math, they ought to be doing Algebra already! Ok, so that's stretching it... but I am frustrated.

 

I really just need answers to the questions below that I copied from my super-longwinded post above to give readers' eyes a break from all the extra junk I typed:

 

Does MM have at least as much explanation for me for each concept as SM? I've got a few SM HIG's, texts & wkbks so I'm a little familiar w/ it (haven't used it, just have it :D). I don't think I could teach with any less teacher instruction. I know MM is written to the student but we would probably use it with me going over the explanation with them 1st. I've looked at MM samples & can't get a good feel for exactly how much explanation is there, as Maria says not everything is included in the samples at the same rate as in the real deal. Maybe I need to go dig through those some more...

 

Does MM have instructions for little games like SM? Are all those "extras" such as websites, soft-pac, and the extra worksheet thingy in MM really just "extra", or are they a necessary part of it?

 

Also, does MM have answers to all the problems somewhere with the solutions worked out step by step - at least as much as Singapore? I will need that in the older elementary levels.

:bigear: Bumping with high hopes.

[CherylG]

we have used this website to help explain math problems from pre-algebra on up:

http://www.mathway.com/

[micandme]

We did switch from Abeka to Singapore Math for one semester. My DD9 needed it. She was awesome at math, but only if she could write it all out. Couldn't think through ANYTHING in her head. Which wasn't a bad thing really, but I wanted her to be able to think it through as well. So Singapore REALLY helped her with that. And after her 1/2 semester, she was ready to go back to Abeka and is still doing great. We'll stick with Abeka until it doesn't work for us and then probably switch to Saxon. But that's just what has worked for us.

 

DD7 is starting 3rd grade Abeka math and struggles with the addition/subtraction facts, but can skip count like crazy. So....:tongue_smilie: We're giving it another year and then we'll see what happens. She understands the concept and can count on her fingers very quickly :D but I think memorizing facts is kinda important. I'm currently looking for chants/songs to help her learn.

 

Anyway....

[bluemongoose]

I have singapore 1A & B and Singapore 2 A & B HIGs and I have 1-5th of MM.

 

I have used 1A and am using 1B right now of Singapore, I am also using 1B of MM at the same time. Yes I am crazy:lol:. We are fazing out of Singapore and into MM.

 

IMO there is a similar amount of instruction in MM as in Singapore. Although, sometimes it takes less on the page in comparison. In other words, MM seems to get the point across in a much simpler way that takes up less time and ink. I feel that the instruction is more than adequate!

 

As far as the answers being worked out. The only HIGs that I have of Singapore have just answers written in the margin. It doesnt show any working out of the students work, maybe this is different in the later grades? I just looked at MM 5th grade answer book and it looks like many of the problems are worked out.

 

There are some games shown in the student book that you can do. There is also a list of games in the beginning of a chapter.

 

I have not used the softpac/ worksheet generator yet. I honestly feel like there is plenty of work so far that I have not needed to print anything else.

 

I have found that DD can generally work more independently and confidently with MM than with Singapore. It seems to be explained in a more comprehensible manner for both of us.

[corbie]

I plan on using MM 4 with Horizons 4 next year. We are now doing MM 4 with Horizons 3. I love the constant review of Horizons and love the teaching in MM.

[Tiramisu]

Having used all of the programs you mentioned except MM and reading the descriptions of your older ds, these are my thoughts:

 

You want your dss to have a strong, thorough math education, that's very clear. You mention your older ds has some struggles with math and it's taking hime a long time. I'm thinking he might be a little frustrated and overwhelmed. I'm not sure of his age but that's a lot of time to spend on math even if he's dawdling. He might be the kind of thinker that needs things kept simple. He could be a very, very bright boy, even one who is gifted in math, but one who needs things more straightforward. I'm saying this because I have a dd that sounds very similar and takes a really long time with math. If I tried to supplement a math program like ABeka with her, I know she eventually would have self-destructed. Singapore was also incredibly frustrating for her and did not have enough review, not for concepts but facts. It's a great program but not one that worked for her style and needs. It was hard for me that it didn't work because I could see that she had gifts in terms of conceptualizing math. Finally, I found these boards, heard about CLE and tried it. It really worked and we've been at it for almost two years. It was perfect because the straightforward logic of it suited the needs for her type of thinking process, and it's good for me because everything you need is in that light unit and it's so thorough I know everything is covered. It's not the most conceptual program but I add what I can from what I learned by having spent some time with Sinagpore PM. Whatever you decide, I would urge you with your older ds to choose one program and do not supplement (at least for a few months), limit your math time to something reasonable (no more than an hour at most), and sit with him and offer emotional support and encouragement while he works.

[Beth in SW WA]

We will use MM, Sing, TT & Horizons worksheets...

 

We are 2 weeks into MM & very impressed. Yesterday dd7 did a lesson from Multiplication 1 (blue series). The directions are clear. No need for a separate TM. I love the way Maria lays out the lessons.

 

Singapore does not have enough for us to just use alone. We use all the elements, but MM provides more review & practice.

 

I was given Horizons 2 worksheets. Dd tolerates the games, puzzles & drill. I love the drill.

 

TT3 is great for filler. Abi thinks 'computer math' is a treat.

 

My girls do math a few times/day. Yesterday we did MM in the car while waiting for ds at the Spanish tutor. You're not hauling a separate workbook & TM around. Just throw a MM worksheet in your purse and you're good to go.

 

I love this hybrid approach we have going here. It may seem overkill, but my girls enjoy math and they LOVE worksheets.

[Annabel Lee]

Having used all of the programs you mentioned except MM and reading the descriptions of your older ds, these are my thoughts:

 

You want your dss to have a strong, thorough math education, that's very clear. You mention your older ds has some struggles with math and it's taking hime a long time. I'm thinking he might be a little frustrated and overwhelmed. I'm not sure of his age but that's a lot of time to spend on math even if he's dawdling. He might be the kind of thinker that needs things kept simple. He could be a very, very bright boy, even one who is gifted in math, but one who needs things more straightforward. I'm saying this because I have a dd that sounds very similar and takes a really long time with math. If I tried to supplement a math program like ABeka with her, I know she eventually would have self-destructed. Singapore was also incredibly frustrating for her and did not have enough review, not for concepts but facts. It's a great program but not one that worked for her style and needs. It was hard for me that it didn't work because I could see that she had gifts in terms of conceptualizing math. Finally, I found these boards, heard about CLE and tried it. It really worked and we've been at it for almost two years. It was perfect because the straightforward logic of it suited the needs for her type of thinking process, and it's good for me because everything you need is in that light unit and it's so thorough I know everything is covered. It's not the most conceptual program but I add what I can from what I learned by having spent some time with Sinagpore PM. Whatever you decide, I would urge you with your older ds to choose one program and do not supplement (at least for a few months), limit your math time to something reasonable (no more than an hour at most), and sit with him and offer emotional support and encouragement while he works.

 

These words of wisdom are what I have finally come to. Abe (9) is bright, loves "playing with numbers" and learning "number tricks", but not in the context of an official math lesson. Abeka only seems like it's ahead because it uses bigger numbers earlier. Other than that, it's TONS of repetitive calculations, and lacks the breadth of topics or even a complete understanding of number theory. It's taken me quite some time to come to a place where I fully believe this well enough to chuck it entirely. If we stuck w/ Abeka I can see what another poster said, about her kids doing averaging problems but still not knowing what it IS they're doing, happening here. To give him some time to decompress, I've dropped everything except for Horizons. I tried a little SM w/ him and while I love it, he loves Horizons. So, for now, I've promised myself for his sake to only do 1 math program for at least a month. I incorporate things I've learned from SM into the oral lesson time, into how I explain things. I don't have him do *extra* work in addition to Horizons though.

 

I would love to add SM back into the mix for him (my littlest guy loves doing both, but he's far more math-tolerant than Abe), but I think it will have to be added in gradually in small bits until we work up to a comfortable level. At that point I'll have to be careful not to push the boundaries of that comfort level too far at once. I've had to learn to ignore well-intended advice and study my own situation w/ my own son and choose a solution based on our abilities. This advice, quoted above, is gold for us right now. He was overloaded and just needs to rediscover his enjoyment of math. Doing only 1 simple math for now will give us time to "play" with numbers a bit, and do some fun math games outside of "math lessons" too. I could have saved us 2 months of wasted time if I just took this advice in the 1st place. Some people have to learn the hard way... ;)

[Tiramisu]

These words of wisdom are what I have finally come to. Abe (9) is bright, loves "playing with numbers" and learning "number tricks", but not in the context of an official math lesson. Abeka only seems like it's ahead because it uses bigger numbers earlier. Other than that, it's TONS of repetitive calculations, and lacks the breadth of topics or even a complete understanding of number theory. It's taken me quite some time to come to a place where I fully believe this well enough to chuck it entirely. If we stuck w/ Abeka I can see what another poster said, about her kids doing averaging problems but still not knowing what it IS they're doing, happening here. To give him some time to decompress, I've dropped everything except for Horizons. I tried a little SM w/ him and while I love it, he loves Horizons. So, for now, I've promised myself for his sake to only do 1 math program for at least a month. I incorporate things I've learned from SM into the oral lesson time, into how I explain things. I don't have him do *extra* work in addition to Horizons though.

 

I would love to add SM back into the mix for him (my littlest guy loves doing both, but he's far more math-tolerant than Abe), but I think it will have to be added in gradually in small bits until we work up to a comfortable level. At that point I'll have to be careful not to push the boundaries of that comfort level too far at once. I've had to learn to ignore well-intended advice and study my own situation w/ my own son and choose a solution based on our abilities. This advice, quoted above, is gold for us right now. He was overloaded and just needs to rediscover his enjoyment of math. Doing only 1 simple math for now will give us time to "play" with numbers a bit, and do some fun math games outside of "math lessons" too. I could have saved us 2 months of wasted time if I just took this advice in the 1st place. Some people have to learn the hard way... ;)

 

I hope everything continues to go well. :grouphug: