Rhetoric and the Progymnasmata

[silliness7]

I'm trying to get a handle on oldest ds's highschool plan before we actually launch high school. He starts 8th grade this fall. This will be my first time homeschooling highschool and I'm a bit nervous and not wanting to mess him up.

 

He will be doing Logic I: Tools for Thinking by Norman Birkett this fall. Assuming all goes well he will follow up with Logic II in 9th grade. Then I guess it's on to Rhetoric.

 

Is Rhetoric a formal course that I can put on a transcript? Would a course in Rhetoric be above and beyond what I have planned for English (Lightning Lit and some IEW)?

 

Memoria Press's Rhetoric course by Martin Cothran looks most feasible for us. I don't see where Memoria Press's logic is a prerequisite.

 

I am also intriguged by IEW's Classical Rhetoric: Writings Based on the Progymnasmata. I dabbled with the Classical Writing curriculum shortly but ended up with IEW for the long haul. I am very intrigued by their lessons in the Progym knowing that I gave that up when I gave up CW.

 

Does Cothran's book go through the progym? Does that go without saying and I'm showing my ignorance?

Would it be helpful to go through IEW's Rhetoric as a friendly intro before delving into Cothran? Are they two totally different animals?

 

Any thoughts on how and when to do a Rhetoric course, a gentle sequence of prerequisites, etc. would be so appreciated! I'm open to other suggestions as well. But I need lots and lots of hand holding. Veritas Press's Rhetoric scares me. I love VP but am very leery of many of their suggestions as they seem to be more geared to experienced classroom teachers.

 

Also any thoughts on how to record this on the transcript and whether to do a regular English course alongside would be great!

 

ETA: I found a thread (don't know how to link it) regarding Martin Cothran's Rhetoric. It looks like the general consensus is dry and awful. Now I'm definitely open to suggestions. I'm re-examining Ancient Rhetorics for Contemporary Students (from the VP catalog) Anyone have experience with this? Maybe it's not so awful.

Edited May 29, 2010 by silliness7

[silliness7]

I'm still reading and researching, fine-tuning my thinking.

 

I would still love to hear from anyone who enjoyed Cothran's Classical Rhetoric. What kind of experiences in your background do you think made this useful when so many call it dull?

 

Now I am combing my VP and MP catalogs for some Rhetoric titles. I've looked at reviews on Amazon. These titles look exciting and I've been able to order most of them from IL loan so I can get my hands on them and hopefully make the most educated decision I can before highschool starts knowing that I will inevitably change things up once we're in the thick of it. :tongue_smilie:

 

The titles that have piqued my interest:

 

Ancient Rhetorics for Contemporary Students by Crowley and Hawhee

(this is VP's new RED pick...has anyone used this with their free downloadable teacher's edition?)

 

Elements of Style by Strunk & White

(VP says works well WITH IEW)

 

The Lively Art of Writing by Payne

 

Style: Ten Lessons in Clarity & Grace by Joseph Williams

(VP touts as the next step following IEW)

 

Figures of Speech by Arthur Quinn

(MP uses with the Cothran guide)

 

Rulebook for Arguments by Weston

 

Some of these titles might not technically fall into the Rhetoric category. I have no idea what would classify as Rhetoric or how to put together a Rhetoric class. I would love to hear how any of you have used these books in your homeschool. What would be a good order. Which ones build on previous knowledge and which are intro level?

 

VP did say that The Argument Builder from Classical Academic Press was a good intro to rhetoric. We're enjoying CAP's Art of Argument so that's good to know.

 

And now I'm still wondering where and if to place IEW's Rhetoric with lessons from the Progym.

[Andrew Kern]

I just spent some time with Martin during which we discussed the place of his Rhetoric. He agreed that it is "about" rhetoric (i.e. it is rhetorical theory) and therefore should be studied after students have spent a few years studying the practice of rhetoric. He said that people should use our Lost Tools of Writing (teaches classical rhetoric through writing) for a couple years and then go on to his rhetoric. I agree with him.

[asta]

I would strongly recommend going to the PHP website and downloading SWBs lectures on A Plan for Teaching Writing high school students and Literary Analysis. I listened to these this weekend and took notes and they was SO helpful.

 

Her descriptions of what rhetoric actually was, how to teach it, the different materials available (and what level each could be considered), I found to be extremely valuable. And they're only $4 each.

 

 

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