Please help with language arts

[ahousefullofjs]

My 2 oldest boys are very different but neither one likes to write. My 10ds cannot spell to save his life. I've tried many different programs but nothing seems to stick with him. Since he struggles so much with just trying to spell words, it's a struggle just getting him to write anything.

My (almost) 8ds is a natural speller but handwriting is still a struggle for him. (Though it has really imrpoved over the past year with copywork.) He just doesn't like writing assignments at all. :glare:

We're currently using BJU for English and Spelling. (Previously tried FLL,ILL & Queens)

I have to say, the BJU Spelling is not too bad. (We just started though).

The English otoh, is not great. They both do well with the basic grammar but when it comes to the writing assignments, ugh!!

We do like workbooks. (while they don't like to write, they seem to have no problem with fill-in-the-blanks.)

I've been looking at Apples and Pears for spelling. Looking at the sample pages, it makes sense to me. I'm thinking of combining them both and starting from beginning, working our way through until the end. Would this work? Are they too old?

I'm also looking at WWE. I'm thinking they need to be gently eased into writing, starting from the beginning level for both and working through.

 

So that would cover Spelling and Writing.........any other grammar ideas?

I've looked at R&S and while I like it, we would prefer workbooks.

 

LA has been a bit of a challenge for years, I'd like to find something that works. Any suggestions are appreciated.

[ahousefullofjs]

anyone??:001_huh:

[Peaceful Isle]

I also use BJU2 for my daughter's English, but I do not make her do the writing assignments in the books. I just use it for basic grammar. I do , however, use WWE2 for her writing and she loves it. For spelling we use Spelling workout and she is thriving! I have heard a lot of good things about Rod and Staff English, but have never used it myself. Hope I helped a little:)

[ahousefullofjs]

Thank you for your response. :)

I'm glad someone else is using BJU English 2. I hadn't considered just skipping the writing parts. I hope I wouldn't feel like I'm wasting half of the book, kwim? We really hit a roadblock today with ds8 and his writing. But it's funny, he really seems to like the actual grammar part. Not sure if it's the colors, content, both??

I'm glad to know you really like WWE. I don't think I've seen any negative comments about it here. I will give it a try.

I'll have to check into that spelling, I've not researched that one.

Thank you for your input.

[Jen+4dc]

Can't really help with the spelling, we have tons of struggles with that here. But, my ds7 has worked through WWE 1 and is now in week 15 of WWE 2. We are doing them at double speed since we started WWE 1 in April of 1st grade. So, we do Week 1 Days 1 & 2 one day and Week 1 Days 3 & 4 the next day then Week 2 Days 1 & 2 so by the end of a calendar week we have covered 2 1/2 weeks. In WWE 2 the weeks are set up a little differently so we are covering Days 1 & 2 on the same day then Day 3 by itself and Day 4 by itself. Hope that makes sense.

 

Ds does *not* like to write things down himself. WWE is working great for us, I have seen a huge improvement in:

 

1) his willingness to write things down (still doesn't like it, but will do it)

2) his summarization/narration skills

3) his reading comprehension and recall of what we've read

4) his spelling -- he still can't spell it himself but he can tell when it's wrong -- this is a huge improvement from our pre WWE days. Whether that improvement would have happened on its own just from growing up or not?? I don't know. But, it has happened and I'm grateful for it!:001_smile:

 

Hope this is at least a little helpful. I highly recommend WWE. It has really helped my son recognize properly written sentences and his comprehension skills. I have every confidence that as we go through the program he will get to the point SWB talks about. Basically, I see it working in the direction it was advertised...so I recommend it.:D

[Peaceful Isle]

Yeah, my daughter really enjoys the English part of BJU as well. It is laid out in a really nice format and seems very kid friendly to me. We are taking it slow with the WWE2. It has the child memorize dictations each week( about two sent ) ,and then write them down. I usually have her do one sent. at a time. Others may do it differently, but this works for us. I really want her to love to write and not stress out. Just fyi for when you do it. :) Also, WWE includes some language lessons in it as well. Example.. commas, capital letters, etc... so it is a very nice addition!

We used to do Abeka spelling, but it did not many worktext pages to do during the week to help review the words. Spelling workout has 4 pages to do, one page for everyday, and one day left for the spelling test. By the time the week is up, my dd usually is very familiar with all the words. It is also very low stress, which is a plus!

:001_smile:

[ahousefullofjs]

Can't really help with the spelling, we have tons of struggles with that here. But, my ds7 has worked through WWE 1 and is now in week 15 of WWE 2. We are doing them at double speed since we started WWE 1 in April of 1st grade. So, we do Week 1 Days 1 & 2 one day and Week 1 Days 3 & 4 the next day then Week 2 Days 1 & 2 so by the end of a calendar week we have covered 2 1/2 weeks. In WWE 2 the weeks are set up a little differently so we are covering Days 1 & 2 on the same day then Day 3 by itself and Day 4 by itself. Hope that makes sense.

 

Ds does *not* like to write things down himself. WWE is working great for us, I have seen a huge improvement in:

 

1) his willingness to write things down (still doesn't like it, but will do it)

2) his summarization/narration skills

3) his reading comprehension and recall of what we've read

4) his spelling -- he still can't spell it himself but he can tell when it's wrong -- this is a huge improvement from our pre WWE days. Whether that improvement would have happened on its own just from growing up or not?? I don't know. But, it has happened and I'm grateful for it!:001_smile:

 

Hope this is at least a little helpful. I highly recommend WWE. It has really helped my son recognize properly written sentences and his comprehension skills. I have every confidence that as we go through the program he will get to the point SWB talks about. Basically, I see it working in the direction it was advertised...so I recommend it.:D

 

Thank you Jen. This is really helpful. Your accelerated schedule is a great idea, I'll give it a try.

I'm really hoping to have the same positive results with writing. I know once we get past this hurdle, things will be so much easier. My ds8 has a great imagination, he does very well with narration, now if I can just get him to the point where he can write those wonderful ideas on paper, that will be cause for celebration. :D

[ahousefullofjs]

Spelling workout looks fun. I like the look of the pages and it seems like plenty of practice with the words. Thanks for that recommendation. I guess for now we'll stick with BJU for grammar. The boys do like it and it does seem like a solid program.

[SilverMoon]

If you like the looks of R&S English, did you know you can do most of it orally? Few grammar lessons actually have to be written, and the diagramming can go on a white board. Most of the lessons that need written have an accompanying worksheet (the workbook doesn't have a sheet for every lesson). My kids start with the oral drill, if they ace that we skip to the review and do that orally too. If it seems like they could use more practice than we'll also do the written drill orally. They diagram on a "slate" size whiteboard and get it checked as they do each sentence. When there's a lesson like spelling irregular possessives and plural possessives I make them write it out. There are writing lessons laced throughout the grammar, they aren't painful though, in our experience.

 

Another workbook grammar that gets mentioned here frequently is Growing with Grammar (GWG). I haven't used it.

[Lovedtodeath]

I didn't answer because I don't have personal experience in this area. But, I have vast knowlege stores of spending most of my time here since DD was 2.:tongue_smilie:Since you aren't getting specific replies I can tell you what I was expecting to see people telling you.

 

If you were to do a search, there are three main spelling methods that stick out when people ask for spelling help: studied dictation, Orton-Gillingham spelling methods (All About Spelling, Spell to Write and Read, How to Teach Spelling, Phonics Road, these usually include dictation) and Apples and Pears. I would go with one of those. How To Teach Spelling seems to include the most for success (phonograms, workbook, spelling rules, dictation) for the best price.

 

Then you also have Elizabeth B's resources for phonics that happen to help spelling at the same time.

 

For writing, WWE is a wonderful program and is the most recommended for remedial work. Check out the samples at the Peace Hill Press website.

 

If you used Phonics Road then it could help both children. It includes handwriting instruction, spelling, and writing (grammar, literature and vocabulary as you progress). There are many using it to remediate older children. In fact, the author used it with her children at older grade levels.

[Debbie in OR]

I feel like I say this in all of my posts lately, but it's true. I think you would do well to listen to Susan's writing lectures. She touches on her experience that good grammar programs are usually not good writing programs and the reverse is true as well.

 

Also, I think her examples and explanations about how to teach writing may very well save you from feeling like you need another curriculum package. It is really very easy and there is no reason to make it difficult or overly involved.

 

Elementary Writing

 

Logic Stage Writing

 

:iagree: After listening to these lectures, I started implementing outlining and summarizing (and Spelling Wisdom from Simply Charlotte Mason...love it. Love.it.) and that's when the correct spelling started happening. And the correct use of punctuation. And the fear of having to "write" something started to go away. My ds told me a few weeks ago while he was working on one of his summaries that his spelling was finally getting better (prior to this, he thought he was a terrible speller mainly because his younger sister is a natural speller.) Truly, I don't know that it matters what spelling "program" you are using; spelling and use of punctuation don't really start clicking until you start writing. And writing. And writing. (Nothing empirical here...just my own experience.)

 

Ds has a notebook dedicated to summaries and outlines and 2-3 times a week, he does one or the other from a history or science book. It's so low-pressure, makes so much sense and requires nothing more than the books you have on hand.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Debbie in OR

[ahousefullofjs]

I feel like I say this in all of my posts lately, but it's true. I think you would do well to listen to Susan's writing lectures. She touches on her experience that good grammar programs are usually not good writing programs and the reverse is true as well.

 

Also, I think her examples and explanations about how to teach writing may very well save you from feeling like you need another curriculum package. It is really very easy and there is no reason to make it difficult or overly involved.

 

Elementary Writing

 

Logic Stage Writing

 

I agree with the idea, simple is better, I'm just not sure I operate that way. :glare: I really second-guess myself unless I have a "plan" to follow. The kids do pick up on this too, if I'm unsure, thay are less motivated.

 

If you like the looks of R&S English, did you know you can do most of it orally? Few grammar lessons actually have to be written, and the diagramming can go on a white board. Most of the lessons that need written have an accompanying worksheet (the workbook doesn't have a sheet for every lesson). My kids start with the oral drill, if they ace that we skip to the review and do that orally too. If it seems like they could use more practice than we'll also do the written drill orally. They diagram on a "slate" size whiteboard and get it checked as they do each sentence. When there's a lesson like spelling irregular possessives and plural possessives I make them write it out. There are writing lessons laced throughout the grammar, they aren't painful though, in our experience.

 

Another workbook grammar that gets mentioned here frequently is Growing with Grammar (GWG). I haven't used it.

 

I will check out GWG. I also didn't consider doing R&S orally. I really like that idea!! I think I will give BJU grammar (only the grammar portion) more time, but if it doesn't work out, R&S sure seems to be a winner with lots of folks here.

 

I didn't answer because I don't have personal experience in this area. But, I have vast knowlege stores of spending most of my time here since DD was 2.:tongue_smilie:Since you aren't getting specific replies I can tell you what I was expecting to see people telling you.

 

If you were to do a search, there are three main spelling methods that stick out when people ask for spelling help: studied dictation, Orton-Gillingham spelling methods (All About Spelling, Spell to Write and Read, How to Teach Spelling, Phonics Road, these usually include dictation) and Apples and Pears. I would go with one of those. How To Teach Spelling seems to include the most for success (phonograms, workbook, spelling rules, dictation) for the best price.

 

Then you also have Elizabeth B's resources for phonics that happen to help spelling at the same time.

 

For writing, WWE is a wonderful program and is the most recommended for remedial work. Check out the samples at the Peace Hill Press website.

 

If you used Phonics Road then it could help both children. It includes handwriting instruction, spelling, and writing (grammar, literature and vocabulary as you progress). There are many using it to remediate older children. In fact, the author used it with her children at older grade levels.

 

You are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for sharing. :)

WWE sure looks good. Based on the sample lessons found online, I love it! I walked through those lessons with the kids and I really like the gentle approach.

 

As for spelling, I'm kind of at a loss. We've tried SS, SP and R&S SSS with no luck. It seems like my oldest just doesn't operate that way. He can't visualize the word, writing misspelled words over and over just ends up in tears. He really has a mental block when it comes to the spelling of words. The thing that's difficult for me is, I'm a natural speller (as is my 2nd son) so it's definitely foreign for me to try to "teach" something just comes naturally to me. KWIM?

How to Teach Spelling looks interesting. Is it very teacher intensive?

Anyone know about Apples & Pears?

I did take a quick look at Phonics Road.....wow! That is a huge program, not ruling it out, I just need to research further.

 

Thanks again for the help.

[Lovedtodeath]

Qs about "How to Teach Spelling" by EPS

 

The children are doing workbook pages or studying copywork and sound sheets about half of the time, and the teacher is doing dictation about half of the time. One thing you could do to make the phonograms more independent is to get the CD ROM from All About Spelling.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164978

 

This is a good thread for spelling suggestions. It looks like Megawords and Phonetic Zoo are more independent than some of the others.

 

So impressed with Megawords! Here is another thread that may interest you.

 

I know that 8filltheheart said that her children did not do well with the rule-based spelling programs, but Apples and Pears finally made the difference. I keep trying to find those posts; I will search around. Typing it all out makes me dizzy this is formerly momof7 ;) How to Teach Spelling is not independent. It is... Momof7, how does Apples and Pears handle this...

Edited March 28, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[ahousefullofjs]

Qs about "How to Teach Spelling" by EPS

 

The children are doing workbook pages or studying copywork and sound sheets about half of the time, and the teacher is doing dictation about half of the time. One thing you could do to make the phonograms more independent is to get the CD ROM from All About Spelling.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164978

 

This is a good thread for spelling suggestions. It looks like Megawords and Phonetic Zoo are more independent than some of the others.

 

So impressed with Megawords! Here is another thread that may interest you.

 

I know that 8filltheheart said that her children did not do well with the rule-based spelling programs, but Apples and Pears finally made the difference. I keep trying to find those posts; I will search around. Typing it all out makes me dizzy this is formerly momof7 ;) How to Teach Spelling is not independent. It is... Momof7, how does Apples and Pears handle this...

 

Thank you for taking the time to provide these links. For some reason, when I did a search for Apples and Pears, I wasn't coming up with much of anything. I've read through all of these and I have to say 8filltheheart has dealt with many of the issues that I am having with my son. I think this approach will help him tremendously.

 

I also really like Megawords. Neither of my boys has issues with reading multi-syllable words but spelling is another issue.

I think starting with Apples and Pears for a phoneme approach will be most beneficial. I also like that it can be used for remedial.

 

This has been so helpful, thank you again.

[Lovedtodeath]

No problem. I have a lot of success with searching because I have read the threads so know better what to look for.

 

Watch out though. My foot is getting better and my auto-immune condition is practically gone (Thanks to my GREAT ND!) So someone else is going to need to park their butt here soon.:tongue_smilie:

[EppieJ]

I don't use the WTM specifically, so I may be speaking out of turn, but I do have a couple of thoughts that may help - at least with the creative writing part. You might consider having dc keep a journal of sorts. Have him write in it every day, but let him know this is not about spelling, grammar, etc. It will not be graded. This is just about him learning to put thoughts down on paper. It gives him an outlet in which to use that creativity without the hang-ups of "doing it right." (I did this, admittedly inconsistently, with ds and he really got quite a bit out of it. Started coming up with all kinds of stories) You might offer some writing prompts to use if he has a hard time getting started. It could be a journal of actual events of the day, what feelings he has, fictional stories...whatever. The idea is to make writing a thing of joy not dread.

 

Another program that I started using (we didn't finish because of a more advanced writing workshop ds enrolled in) is the Just Write program from EPS. Not sure how old your dc are, but the elementary workbooks were good. They take you through the process of writing a story and what a story contains (plot, setting...)

 

We have also used Growing with Grammar. It's an easy to implement, fairly comprehensive grammar program that requires almost 0 prep work. There's a lesson for the student to read (or you could read with/to) and a corresponding workbook page. The work covers the lesson, but also has built in review. We usually complete a lesson in 15-25 minutes, depending on how well ds is concentrating that day.

 

Hope you find what you're looking for!

[jclinton]

I have a couple of ideas for you that may or may not work for your family.

I have a VERY reluctant writer in my dd. We use Voyages in English - the 2006 version. I can not stress the publication date enough. There is a version from the 1960's that I could not use for a great many reasons. The 2006 version has two parts to one book, the front part is writing and study type skills. They introduce pre-writing, drafting, content editing then publishing. This technique has worked well for dd. (FYI we've done IEW, and Writing Strands - neither of which worked for us). For prewriting I help her by writing her ideas down. We start with a 5 minute brain storm period where she comes up with all the ideas she can in 5 minutes. We could also use a tape recorder for this but I've just always been the scribe for this portion. Then she organizes the ideas, does a rough draft, edits it for content to see if she needs to add or change anything, then she edits for grammar/spelling (usually does the rough draft through publishing on the computer) and then publishes. The back of the book is all grammar.

That said, VIE also has a workbook style grammar program called Exercises in English. This is a very sound program as well.

If you are interested go to www.voyagesinenglish.com

Just so you're aware VIE and EIE are published by Loyola Press - however the program is more secular in nature. I have not seen any Catholic doctrine in the books at all. As a matter of fact they use these books in a local Christian school a friend of mine's daughter goes to.

HTH,

JoAnne