Hoggirl Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Here are two sentences with which we are having trouble regarding the use of the dative case. 1. She was the handmaiden to the woman for three years. "to the woman" is translated as dative singular. 2. The sailors are pure and pleasing to God. "to God" is translated as the dative singular. Here is our confusion: My understanding is that the dative case is the indirect object case. However, in this situation in ENGLISH there are not DIRECT OBJECTS in these sentences as the verb is a "being" verb. Ds claims that in ENGLISH we CANNOT have an indirect object without a direct object (we don't here b/c "handmaiden" is a predicate noun and "pure and pleasing" are predicate adjectives). Is the dative case used in other situations besides the indirect object case???? If so, how is it being used? And, what would "to the woman" and "to God" be in ENGLISH grammar? Would these be prepositional phrases? How would they be diagrammed? I have the English Grammar for Students of Latin book, but I don't see an example like this. I have looked in the R&S grammar handbook and cannot find a similiar example in English either. HELP!!:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 In the Essentials of Latin Grammar there are many functions for the dative case other than just an indirect object: Dative Case (a) The Dative is used to indicate the indirect object of the verb, often shown in English by to and for. (b) The Dative can indicate possession. © The Dative can indicate purpose and is followed by a second dative of the person or thing. It is know as a predicative dative. Additional Syntax-Dative (a) The Dative is sometimes used after a perfect passive to denote the agent. (b) The Dative is used to indicate the purpose aimed at. © The Dative is used in poetry to indicate motion towards. (d) The Dative of a pronoun can be used to indicate a person interested in the action. Right off the bat, I don't know which one applies to the sentences you have. Maybe someone else can tell us that. I just wanted to let you know that the Dative case is used for more than just indirect objects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in GA Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 The phrase "to the woman" is a prepositional phrase functioning as an adjective. This means that it would be diagrammed underneath the word "handmaiden," which it modifies. The phrase "to God" is a prep. phrase functioning as an adverb, modifying the compound adjective "pure and pleasing." It would be diagrammed just underneath the compound adjective, with the slanted line coming down just before the "fork" (where the line splits to form a compound item). I think that both of these examples would qualify as "predicate datives." They seem to indicate purpose, and modify, respectively 1)a predicate noun, and 2) a predicate adjective. HTH, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaNY Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Here are two sentences with which we are having trouble regarding the use of the dative case. 1. She was the handmaiden to the woman for three years. "to the woman" is translated as dative singular. "to the woman" indicates dative of possession, which is used to indicate the owner or possessor of something 2. The sailors are pure and pleasing to God. "to God" is translated as the dative singular. The dative is sometimes used with certain adjectives. "Pleasing (to)" is one of them. So, yes, the dative case is used in other instances, and not just as the "indirect object" case. HELP!!:confused: I am no Latin scholar, but that is how I would see what is happening in those sentences. Others can chime in and correct me, if I am wrong here. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in GA Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Here's a quote from Wheelocks which may be helpful: An adjective indicating attitude, relation, or quality may take a noun or pronoun in the dative case to indicate, literally or figuratively, the direction in which the adjective applies; such adjectives in English are usually followed by the words to, toward, or for. "Pleasing to God" fits this description exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoggirl Posted March 25, 2008 Author Share Posted March 25, 2008 I certainly have a lot to learn in Latin! This, honestly, has been one of my frustrations with LitCT...this is something that we certainly haven't learned. My ds is very literal, and when I encounter something like this (that has not yet been learned) yet that does not follow the grammar rules (either English OR Latin) that we have learned, I get "stuck." Should I get a copy of Wheelocks for "reference?" Or, Beth, could you link the book you mentioned to a place where I could purchase it? Any opinions on which of these two would be the "better" resource to have on hand. I have the Henle grammar book. I think another weakness I have is a lack of knowledge on how, exactly, one uses a grammar handbook. I mean, if I don't know WHY I am to use the dative, what do I look up??? We need a smiley for a big ol' sigh! Thanks for trying to help me out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 This book is a very handy reference. All I did was look up dative in the index and found all of the information I posted. Here is a link: http://www.amazon.com/Essentials-Latin-Grammar-Michael-Wilson/dp/0844285404/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206446413&sr=8-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaNY Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 I certainly have a lot to learn in Latin! This, honestly, has been one of my frustrations with LitCT...this is something that we certainly haven't learned. My ds is very literal, and when I encounter something like this (that has not yet been learned) yet that does not follow the grammar rules (either English OR Latin) that we have learned, I get "stuck." Should I get a copy of Wheelocks for "reference?" Or, Beth, could you link the book you mentioned to a place where I could purchase it? Any opinions on which of these two would be the "better" resource to have on hand. I have the Henle grammar book. I think another weakness I have is a lack of knowledge on how, exactly, one uses a grammar handbook. I mean, if I don't know WHY I am to use the dative, what do I look up??? We need a smiley for a big ol' sigh!Thanks for trying to help me out! Cynthia, the first thing I would do is email the author. I would want to know what was in her mind when she wrote that exercise, and what she expects her student to know at that point. It is very beneficial to understand where the author is coming from, and you are at an advantage, since she is accessible. I have a bunch of Latin grammars. I think it is important to have several on hand, since many of them approach the grammar from slightly different angles. I like having actual Latin textbooks, since they offer more explanation than a Latin grammar. If you do email the author, post back here and let us know what she says. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 We recently covered this grammar in Latin Alive! The finer points of Latin grammar make me a little Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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