Push me over the edge with Right Start (Spycar and others)

[Satori]

Spycar's PM box is filled, but I wanted to ask this question anyway...

 

Right now I'm using MUS Primer with my DD4 and it's working out well. I want a second math curriculum. I really want math to become intuitive and fun for her.

 

Singapore sounded great, but as I get to know my daughter's learning styles, worksheets bore her. As I get to know my style, I enjoy working with her, so don't mind spending the time if it's creative and fun. I like the idea of working with many manipulatives. Cost is not an issue as long as I believe it will help her learn well.

 

So does it sound like Right Start would be a good fit?

[Aurelia]

I think it does. Even when there are worksheets in level A, there are maybe 8 problems on it, which is exactly what my worksheet-phobic then-4-year-old needed. It was enough to practice, but not so much that she was overwhelmed. My child prefers the one-on-one interaction almost more than anything else with RS, though she loves playing with the manipulatives, too.

[EmilyK]

Have you looked at livingmath.net ? There's a yahoo group too. I loved reading all the living math books we could find with my kids, and my younger one has loved games. This is not to dissuade you from Right Start but just to point out a way to make math fun and intuitive.

[Satori]

Ooh, I've got quite a few of the books and games Living Math suggests, that might be fun to throw in a few times a week! What a great, important resource, I can see it covering so much more than math as well.

 

I am not ready to give up on Singapore! I have heard so many good things about it.

 

I am still intrigued with Right Start and will probably get it.

[Surlygirlie]

I am still intrigued with Right Start and will probably get it.

This is exactly the thought that I had six years ago when I made my biggest (to date) purchase of Rightstart.

 

I have never, ever regretted it. I honestly swear it is why both of my children love math as much as they do. I also don't think (especially in the lower grades) that it is in any way "worksheet heavy." I do remember from time to time that one or the other of my kids would balk at the perceived length of the practice problems, but then I just had them split the work over two days. *shrugs*

 

Good luck with your decision.

[Satori]

That was it! Thank you Kara for "pushing me over the edge". Pushing the order button now. :)

[Capt_Uhura]

It sounds like RS would be a good fit for you. That's one of the most important things w/ curricula...is it a good fit for the teacher and the child? I think RS has a good "send it back if you don't like it" policy and RS resells well also.

 

I've taught RS A,B,C,D, and now half way through E and have no regrets. We'll go back and do some things in Singapore Math (a bit more on decimals and CWP) but I love DS's intuitive feel for math. My 2nd DS has done RS A,B and is now in level C.

 

Biggest thing w/ RS is to PLAY Those games!

[Spy Car]

Can we all agitate for bigger PM boxes? Mine is always in danger of being "full" and I don't like deleting PMs. Or downloading them as unsearchable text.

 

Plead with the powers that be :D

 

Back to the topic at hand. I thought very long and hard about using Right Start. I'm impressed by a great many aspects of this program. At the end of the day, because of my temperament and my son's (we are very like-minded) I didn't think it would be the best fit for us. But I have tried to incorporate the best of RS into our math-program including the games (very popular) and the AL abacus.

 

Neither of us is the "compliant" type. RS strikes be as being pretty methodical. If RS had been our "spine" I would have wanted to give the program it's full respect and not constantly "improvise". And what I really wanted to do (and have done) is to improvise. And to pull in elements from many different programs, and then make them my own. But that's just my mad nature.

 

Sort of like cooking. I love to cook. I love to read great cookbooks. But don't ask me to follow a recipe. I can't. I always have "other ideas".

 

But the mainipulative and teacher "intensiveness" of RS is appealing to me. And RS, from my limited exposure, is really clear. Great at teaching place value and the like. Very "orderly".

 

Where I wonder if it is as strong is in the "critical thinking" (almost IQ test-like thinking) where Miquon, MEP, Singapore excel. This sort of math, where your brain hurts because you have to "think" especially appeals to my son and to me. I don't see this sort of heavy critical thinking in RS materials I have.

 

So the strengths are different (from my possibly wrong perceptions). It may be unfair, but I think RS would be great for building a very orderly, sort of engineering-type math mind, clean, efficient, very adept at calculating, but deep in critical thinking? There I'm not so sure.

 

Again, I may be dead wrong on this last "prejudice".

 

In RSs favor, most parents who've used it have really loved it. I kind of wish I had another child I could do the full program with. I don't think you'd be going wrong with RS. If that's the way you go, I'd be excited for you. It is for sure one of the best elementary math programs out there.

 

Best wishes.

 

Bill

Edited July 2, 2009 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm getting the feeling like Satori is a sweet, patient, gentle, and smart child (and you are much the same, except you're not a child :D) and that is exactly the type of child/parent combo I'd expect would most likely thrive with Right Start.

 

If you're feeling it, go for it.

 

Bill

[Capt_Uhura]

Spycar said:

Where I wonder if it is as strong is in the "critical thinking" (almost IQ test-like thinking) where Miquon, MEP, Singapore excel. This sort of math, where your brain hurts because you have to "think" especially appeals to my son and to me. I don't see this sort of heavy critical thinking in RS materials I have.

 

So the strengths are different (from my possibly wrong perceptions). It may be unfair, but I think RS would be great for building a very orderly, sort of engineering-type math mind, clean, efficient, very adept at calculating, but deep in critical thinking? There I'm not so sure.

 

Interesting!!! Can you define what you mean by "critical thinking?" I hope others chime in on this. I actually have the opposite opinion of RS. And I've read that some find it too conceptual, asking DC to apply knowledge they've not been taught. There are many instances where DC has to answer a problem he has not been taught the explicitly - which I've seen defined as a math problem as opposed to math exercises which most programs give. I would describe Singapore math "as great for engineering-type math mind, clean, efficient, very adept at calculating" as far as the Primary series w/ CWP/IP adding in the critical thinking. I like supplementing RS w/ SM CWPs. RS has some of those type problems but not many. I love talking math curricula so you've made my day SpyCar. I always read your posts! :001_smile:

 

Capt_Uhura

[Haiku]

I used Singapore with my oldest child, who is 15 and going into ninth grade in a public school. Singapore was a complete bomb. She hated it, I hated it ... the explanations were brief, the examples too few, and the practice problems skimpy. I did not find it to be the fantabulous program that so many other people seem to think it is.

 

With my younger two I do RightStart, and it's just like Chrysanthemum's name: absolutely perfect. (Apologies to those who haven't read Chrysanthemum.)

 

Tara

[Satori]

Yep, I listened to the story Chrysanthemum in the car on a drive to Utah a few weeks ago. :)I'm looking for a few math curriculums so I can be prepared for my daughter's particular learning style for understanding and learning math. I didn't mention I bought Miquon already. So I think I'll start with MUS and RightStart, and use Miquon and Singapore as needed to cover any thing that needs to be clarified a different way. Who knows, I might change my mind within the year, but this should be a good start, I feel prepared for anything.

 

I just want DD to love math as much as I did. My advanced math teacher talked that learning math made for some "groovy brains", and that stuck in my head, lol.

 

Thanks for the more experienced math users' inputs!

[walkermamaof4]

Today, my kids ASKED if they could play the RS games for fun with the neighbor kids AFTER SCHOOL. Enough said.

[siloam]

Spycar said:

 

Interesting!!! Can you define what you mean by "critical thinking?" I hope others chime in on this. I actually have the opposite opinion of RS. And I've read that some find it too conceptual, asking DC to apply knowledge they've not been taught. There are many instances where DC has to answer a problem he has not been taught the explicitly - which I've seen defined as a math problem as opposed to math exercises which most programs give. I would describe Singapore math "as great for engineering-type math mind, clean, efficient, very adept at calculating" as far as the Primary series w/ CWP/IP adding in the critical thinking. I like supplementing RS w/ SM CWPs. RS has some of those type problems but not many. I love talking math curricula so you've made my day SpyCar. I always read your posts! :001_smile:

 

Capt_Uhura

 

I would say yes and no. Now I have to figure out how to put why into words. ;)

 

Singapore starts right off, in the IP books especially but also in the CWP throwing things at the child that require them to really think. Practically most of the time this equates to having my dd try to figure it out on her own twice and then my helping her through it. Now every problem in these books are the super challenging, mostly they are at the end of sections and especially at the end of the books. My dd will get some right the first time, though that is a small percentage, and will get a few more right the second time, but the majority of these difficult problems we have to do together.

 

Does RS have that? Not really.

 

RS does a better job of leading the child through each step of how a concept works, so where Singapore is for the math intuitive because it makes logical leaps with RS you don't have to be intuitive at all. In level D I do see where it is starting to do some of the problem solving type stuff that Singapore does, though it is instructing the child in strategies on how to do them vs. just giving them the problem with no instruction. Because we have just gotten to them I don't know to what extent they will work with them.

 

RS also address many different approaches-strategies that can be used to do subtraction and addition that are not critical thinking, but are good for problem solving, especially good for building a fluency...a comfort level with math. Seeing figures and math as a more fluid subject instead of a ridged set of rules you must obey. RS does a better job of this than Singapore does. From what I used of Miquon I would put it between the two (I liked it but the girls begged to stop. I still don't really understand what was so offensive about it :confused: ).

 

I do think RS is better than standard math programs for critical thinking, but it does not yet go as far as Singapore does. The difficulty I have is that I have to drag my kids along when doing Singapore, which I am willing to do. In general they love RS and tolerate Singapore.

 

Spycar, have you looked at upper level math yet? I am trying to figure out what in the world I will use with Singapore (NEM or DM-haven't decided which yet). I just know that it will be more of the same where they can't do it alone. I have bought most of the popular texts and will start working through them myself, but I was wondering if you had spied anything particular interesting that I might add to the list.

 

Heather

 

[Spy Car]

Spycar said:

 

Interesting!!! Can you define what you mean by "critical thinking?" I hope others chime in on this. I actually have the opposite opinion of RS. And I've read that some find it too conceptual, asking DC to apply knowledge they've not been taught. There are many instances where DC has to answer a problem he has not been taught the explicitly - which I've seen defined as a math problem as opposed to math exercises which most programs give. I would describe Singapore math "as great for engineering-type math mind, clean, efficient, very adept at calculating" as far as the Primary series w/ CWP/IP adding in the critical thinking. I like supplementing RS w/ SM CWPs. RS has some of those type problems but not many. I love talking math curricula so you've made my day SpyCar. I always read your posts! :001_smile:

 

Capt_Uhura

 

Thank you Capt :001_smile:

 

I'll grant you that what I'd call "critical thinking" aspects are stronger in Singapore's IPs and CWPs, than in the main textbooks/workbooks thus far. Where MEP abounds with such kinds of challenges, which are the kinds of exercises my son likes best (and me too).

 

By "critical thinking" I guess I mean "problems" that are more akin to what you might expect on an "IQ test". Patterns, puzzles, "machines" that have effects on quantities moving in and out, multi-part objects that have to be colored in unique ways with a limited number of colored pencils. Challenges that are multi-dimensional, or multi-part, where you have to look a couple steps ahead (and logically) to come up with a solution. Things that make your brain hurt a little.

 

So things different that how to make the sum of 8 + 7, even if that is a "conceptually deep" way, and granting such things are essential to teach well (and here I know RS shines).

 

I may be dead wrong about RS not being at its strongest on what I'd call "critical thinking". I just haven't seen anything like that in the RS materials I've acquired (and that's not the full program). On the other hand it gets top honors in many other areas. So I appreciate the strengths.

 

I'd also be happy to learn that the full RS program does include a lot of "I've really got to put on my thing cap" type problems. It has taken restraint to order only a lite-version of RS.

 

Must not buy more math programs :D

 

Bill

[siloam]

Spycar's PM box is filled, but I wanted to ask this question anyway...

 

Right now I'm using MUS Primer with my DD4 and it's working out well. I want a second math curriculum. I really want math to become intuitive and fun for her.

 

Singapore sounded great, but as I get to know my daughter's learning styles, worksheets bore her. As I get to know my style, I enjoy working with her, so don't mind spending the time if it's creative and fun. I like the idea of working with many manipulatives. Cost is not an issue as long as I believe it will help her learn well.

 

So does it sound like Right Start would be a good fit?

 

It sounds like a good fit to me. RS does have a lot less worksheets than Singapore, just the Primary text. My girls do a minimum of 2 pages a day in Singapore and in RS they have two at most, many days have only one and some none. The farther you get into the program the more you do have daily worksheets.

 

Heather

 

[Spy Car]

I would say yes and no. Now I have to figure out how to put why into words. ;)

 

Singapore starts right off, in the IP books especially but also in the CWP throwing things at the child that require them to really think. Practically most of the time this equates to having my dd try to figure it out on her own twice and then my helping her through it. Now every problem in these books are the super challenging, mostly they are at the end of sections and especially at the end of the books. My dd will get some right the first time, though that is a small percentage, and will get a few more right the second time, but the majority of these difficult problems we have to do together.

 

Does RS have that? Not really.

 

RS does a better job of leading the child through each step of how a concept works, so where Singapore is for the math intuitive because it makes logical leaps with RS you don't have to be intuitive at all. In level D I do see where it is starting to do some of the problem solving type stuff that Singapore does, though it is instructing the child in strategies on how to do them vs. just giving them the problem with no instruction. Because we have just gotten to them I don't know to what extent they will work with them.

 

RS also address many different approaches-strategies that can be used to do subtraction and addition that are not critical thinking, but are good for problem solving, especially good for building a fluency...a comfort level with math. Seeing figures and math as a more fluid subject instead of a ridged set of rules you must obey. RS does a better job of this than Singapore does. From what I used of Miquon I would put it between the two (I liked it but the girls begged to stop. I still don't really understand what was so offensive about it :confused: ).

 

I do think RS is better than standard math programs for critical thinking, but it does not yet go as far as Singapore does. The difficulty I have is that I have to drag my kids along when doing Singapore, which I am willing to do. In general they love RS and tolerate Singapore. Heather

 

 

 

Thank you Heather. You explained more clearly than I could have (and with a greater authority than mine) where the strengths and weaknesses of these programs might be. Mine impression is/was just as you state.

 

To be honest, part of what attracts me to what I'd call "critical thinking" type math (in addition to just liking it myself) is that from the beginning of my son's math exposure, a boy who has a lot of "boy-energy" and could be "fidgety" really went into a calm focus when challenged with something he needly to really thing "hard" about in order to solve. So I think these activities where/are good for him in particular and these sort of thing I doubt you could generalize about. If that makes sense.

 

Spycar, have you looked at upper level math yet? I am trying to figure out what in the world I will use with Singapore (NEM or DM-haven't decided which yet). I just know that it will be more of the same where they can't do it alone. I have bought most of the popular texts and will start working through them myself, but I was wondering if you had spied anything particular interesting that I might add to the list.

 

Heather

 

 

Nothing set in stone.

 

But I'm strongly thinking about Russian Math 6.

 

I'm too intrigued to not at least try Life of Fred.

 

If my son proves to be really advanced maybe the "Art of Problem Solving" books.

 

Then there are the Ed Zaccaro books.

 

The maniputative based early algebra program "Hands-On Equations" is very interesting.

 

Don Cohen has an early Calculus program.

 

Then there are algebra texts:001_huh:

 

I'm in deeper trouble than I realized. Thanks a lot :D

 

Bill

 

BTW, I still have a list of you recommended RS math games slipped on a card in our game book, and we're following your advice. Thanks for that :001_smile:

[Spy Car]

Today, my kids ASKED if they could play the RS games for fun with the neighbor kids AFTER SCHOOL. Enough said.

 

That happens here too. My rising Kindergartner likes challenging the rising 3rd grade girl next door, and rising 2nd Grader down the block. And they have a great time.

[Capt_Uhura]

Thanks for your thoughts SpyCar and Siloam! I agree with you for the most part. When I think of Sinagpore, I was not including CWP and IP as I don't know that most people also do the supplemental books. I do supplement w/ CWP. I have an IP or two but haven't used them much. I confess to not getting MEP. I think if I had it all printed out for me in a book it would go over much better. Perhaps I'll take a 2nd look. But since we also do Zaccaro Primary Grade and Challenge Math as well as Zaccaro Real World Algebra as well as a fun real-life Linear Equations book along w/ RS E...I don't need any other math curricula!

 

Thanks SpyCar for clarifying what you meant by "critical thinking" so we can compare apples w/ apples lol.

[Spy Car]

Thanks for your thoughts SpyCar and Siloam! I agree with you for the most part. When I think of Sinagpore, I was not including CWP and IP as I don't know that most people also do the supplemental books. I do supplement w/ CWP. I have an IP or two but haven't used them much. I confess to not getting MEP. I think if I had it all printed out for me in a book it would go over much better. Perhaps I'll take a 2nd look. But since we also do Zaccaro Primary Grade and Challenge Math as well as Zaccaro Real World Algebra as well as a fun real-life Linear Equations book along w/ RS E...I don't need any other math curricula!

 

Thanks SpyCar for clarifying what you meant by "critical thinking" so we can compare apples w/ apples lol.

 

Would you mind sharing your impressions of the Zaccaro materials? In depth? :D

 

Bill