Beth in Central TX Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I've been grinding wheat and making bread for about 2 years now. My DH recently purchased a Bosch mixer for me so that I don't have to hand knead anymore. Since I've had the mixer, my bread has not turned out right. It's usually very flat (doesn't rise above the bread pan when it's done cooking) and/or dense and crumbly. Here are some of the things I've tried: Use dough enhancer Don't use dough enhancer Add more flour Add less flour Let the dough rise on the counter Put the dough in a slightly warm oven to rise Cooking it until it reaches 200 degrees Cooking it until it reaches 190 degrees Cooking it until it reaches 180 degrees Does anyone have anything else for me to try? I'm ready to quit making bread and just buying it at the store. Of course, I'll have a very expensive, brand new mixer sitting on my counter staring at me and making me feel even more guilty... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I've been grinding wheat and making bread for about 2 years now. My DH recently purchased a Bosch mixer for me so that I don't have to hand knead anymore. Since I've had the mixer, my bread has not turned out right. It's usually very flat (doesn't rise above the bread pan when it's done cooking) and/or dense and crumbly. Here are some of the things I've tried: Use dough enhancer Don't use dough enhancer Add more flour Add less flour Let the dough rise on the counter Put the dough in a slightly warm oven to rise Cooking it until it reaches 200 degrees Cooking it until it reaches 190 degrees Cooking it until it reaches 180 degrees Does anyone have anything else for me to try? I'm ready to quit making bread and just buying it at the store. Of course, I'll have a very expensive, brand new mixer sitting on my counter staring at me and making me feel even more guilty... Thanks! Have you been "proofing" your mix? By that I mean have you added your yeast to your water and beginning ingredients and have it produce a froth? Your yeast may not be activating. My standard recipe (which I have never had not turn out fantastic) is 6 c warm water 1/2 c olive oil 2/3 c dry milk (usually BTM....which is actually "better than milk") 2/3 c honey 2T salt 3T yeast 2 heaping T gluten 3T lecithin ~15 c flour I proof with ~ 1 c flour for a minute or so Then I knead it for approx 9 mins. I also do a double rise. I let it rise in my bowl and then pound out into ~ 8 loaves and let it re-rise in the pans before baking. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 Thank you for the recipe. Yes, I do proof, but I don't double rise. Do you rise in the bowl until doubled, pound, and then rise to double again in the loaf pans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Thank you for the recipe. Yes, I do proof, but I don't double rise. Do you rise in the bowl until doubled, pound, and then rise to double again in the loaf pans? Yes. I let both double in size. I actually have had to learn not to let it rise too high the second time or it sometimes collapses when cooking. I'm not sure why your bread would be turning out hard with a machine kneader. It normally makes it much lighter and fluffier. Sorry I'm not much more help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 I'm not sure why your bread would be turning out hard with a machine kneader. It normally makes it much lighter and fluffier. Sorry I'm not much more help. I thought it would be so much easier with a Bosch. That's why I'm so frustrated. Thanks for help; I really appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KerriF Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 It could be that dough isn't being kneadded long enough. One test I've heard of is to take a piece of dough and slowly pull it apart. It shouldn't break apart but rather pull into a thin film. My last batch of bread came out flat and I had to redo it. I ended up letting my yeast, sugar, and water sponge and then making sure I kneaded long enough. For Christmas I got the King Arthur Whole Wheat Flour Cookbook and I've been using one of their recipes for bread. It has potato flakes, orange juice, and powdered milk in it and its the best bread recipe I've ever used. We love it :) hth Kerri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 It has potato flakes, orange juice, and powdered milk in it and its the best bread recipe I've ever used. We love it :) hth Kerri Would you be willing to share?? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 No, I haven't checked the consistency of the dough after kneading. I thought the mixer would do the job, but I may not be kneading it long enough. Hmmm...good point, thanks. I'd be interested in this recipe too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy+2 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 I would say the problem is in the yeast...I had the same thing a while back and when I called Breadbeckers-I get my whole grains from them-they told me to FIRST check to see if maybe the yeast was bad. I bought new, and no problem with 'flat bread' after that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishnoises Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 I have that book too! I LOVE it. The potato flakes are supposed to make the bread moister, and the orange juice is supposed to balance well with the whole wheat. I was thinking the same about your problem with the bread, it sounds like a yeast problem. (How old is your yeast? I would test it like the person mentionned before..) Here is a recipe I love: Honey Whole Wheat Bread (3 loaves) (I use my mixer for this....takes about 10 mins with the final kneading cycle) 2 envelopes active dry yeast 5 cups bread flour (King Arthur) 3 cups luke warm water 1/3 c. honey about 7 teaspoons of bread dough enhancer mix these together to form a proof. (about 2-3 mins. scrape down sides)Let rise covered with plastic, for 1/2 hr. Then add: 1/3 cup honey 1 Tbs salt 3 Tbs. melted butter 2 Tbs. cracked wheat 2 cups whole wheat flour mix well and add more flour (about 4-6 cups) until dough is elastic and smooth. Let rise in a lightly greased bowl, covered with plastic for 1 hour. When doubled, press down dough gently to deflate the bubbles and separate into 3 equal sized loaves. (I like to do the envelope thing to get the yeast evenly distributed. It's an Alton Brown thing...) Press into greased loaf pans and let rise 1 hour. (covered with the plastic again...and a towel) Set oven 350 degrees. Cook loaves for 20 mins and cover with foil if getting too brown for an additional 10 mins. Remove from pans and let cool 1/2 hr before cutting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Thank you so much for posting the recipe. I am a little confused though. Is there a total of 11-13 cups of flour for 3 loaves? (that seems like a lot. I only use 15 for 8 loaves) Can you make this using all freshly ground whole wheat? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KerriF Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Sure :) No problem 100% Whole Wheat Sandwich Bread 2 Tbsp orange juice 1 cup lukewarm water 4 Tbsp unsalted butter, cut into 6 pieces 3 cups traditional whole wheat flour (I use white whole wheat) 3 Tbsp sugar Heaping 1/2 cup dried potato flakes or 3 Tbsp potato flour 1/4 cup nonfat dry milk 1 1/4 tsp salt 2 1/2 tsp instant yeast Combine all the ingredients, and mix and knead them until you have soft smooth dough. Cover and allow the dough to rise until it's puffy and nearly doubled in bulk, 1 to 2 hours. Lightly grease an 8 1/2 x 4 1/2 inch loaf pan. Gently deflate dough, and shape into an 8 inch log. Place in the prepared pan. Cover the loaf gently with lightly greased plastic wrap or a proof cover and allow to rise till it's crowned anbout 1 1/2 inches over the rim of the pan, 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours (mine never takes this long). Near the end of the bread's rising time, preheat the oven to 350. Uncover and bake the bread for about 35 min., tenting it with foil after 15 min. The bread is done when it's golden brown and an instant read thermometer insterted in the center registers 190. Remover from the oven, and after a minute or so turn it out onto a rack. Brush with melted butter, if desired; this will keep the crust soft. Cool the bread for 30 min. before slicing. We really like it. It makes great sandwich bread. Kerri :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 No, I haven't checked the consistency of the dough after kneading. I thought the mixer would do the job, but I may not be kneading it long enough. Hmmm...good point, thanks. I'd be interested in this recipe too. turn out *normal*, it's usually due to the fact that I have not been kneading well enough. I don't have a Bosch Mixer (if you are getting rid of yours, call me :D) but check after the machine has been kneading if the dough is elastic, stretches. Also a tip someone told me to check if dough is done rising: Poke a finger into dough, if indentation stays for about a minute without closing, it's done rising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profmom Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Beth, did you get your bread to work? I'm probably not experienced enough to troubleshoot, but mine is working with the Bosch. Maybe it would help if I told you what I do (?). First, I use either Kristy Bell's recipe for 5 loaves or, more often, Marilyn Moll's Hand Method for 2 loaves (+ 1 little loaf). When I use Marilyn's recipe, I use the hand method's measurements (only) and still use the Bosch with Kristy Bell's order and procedure. One modification that Kristy Bell told me was to let the machine knead for 8 minutes instead of the 6 that is written in her recipe. I haven't tried sponging or a 2nd rise -- Kristy Bell's recipe doesn't say to do either of these, and it's always worked without them! I don't measure the flour and this was one of the things that was most intimidating to me! You may not need this info, but, just in case, I add flour with the mixer running on low until the dough cleans the sides (and a bit of the bottom) of the bowl. Then, I set a timer for 8 minutes and walk away. Once it's finished, I immediately take out the dough, shape it, and let it rise once before baking. I hope you get it figured out! I really like using the Bosch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 Hi Profmom, I like your new avatar! I haven't made another batch yet, but after reading through all of the posts, I think the problem is that I'm not kneading it long enough before I let it rise. I'll try that and see if it helps. If not, I'll try to let the batch rise twice. I bought a loaf of bread at the store today. Everyone else around here can say they like the flat bread, but I sure don't. I'll try again later next week. Take care, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 So how do you know you have bad yeast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 Hi Liz, If I get rid of the Bosch, you'll be the first to know. I told DH that I was done making bread. He just looked at me and said, "The boys and I like your bread, even if it's flat." How do you argue with that? I don't mind make the bread, but it's irritating when it turns out wrong, or flat in this case. Take care, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profmom Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 One modification that Kristy Bell told me was to let the machine knead for 8 minutes instead of the 6 that is written in her recipe. I originally had a typo in this line that may have affected the meaning ("need" instead of "knead!") If you've been letting the machine knead for 8 minutes after putting in the last of the flour, maybe it is your yeast. :confused: Here's something that came up when I googled "testing yeast": http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/yeast_test.asp You like the avatar? I'm not sure -- it's one that dd snapped outside, and I'm squinting. Thanks though! :) ETA: Don't give up!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 Thanks for the testing yeast link. I'll try that to be sure my yeast is good; it's not that old and the bag is still full, so I hope that's not the problem, but it would be a quick fix. I was looking over the recipe that I was using, and it recommends kneading for 4-5 minutes. I was kneading for 5 minutes, but it looks like that's not long enough. I'm going to try 8 minutes next time and then test the dough like Kerri suggested. Since your avatar is black and white, I don't think the squinting really stands out. I liked your color one too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profmom Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Let us know how it turns out! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hi Liz, If I get rid of the Bosch, you'll be the first to know. I told DH that I was done making bread. He just looked at me and said, "The boys and I like your bread, even if it's flat." How do you argue with that? I don't mind make the bread, but it's irritating when it turns out wrong, or flat in this case. Take care, of your guys to say that. I have made so many blunders in baking bread and trying sourdough. One turned out so hard, we could have resoled our shoes with it. Keep at it and do not get rid of the Bosch!!! You will love it - one day!;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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